Request to Community

Lord Krazy,

I have a small request if i may? I have had problems trying to get several of my mods to work.

I have tried to put a Royal Purple Blanket under my Katapharaktoi. Any suggestions? Mainly to represent the elite status of the unit.

Also, I have been trying to change the Byzantine standard spearman to a hoplite. So the Byzantine forces have an individual unit make up.
IF anyone, can help here I would appreicate it.
As it would be more realistic representation. Infact they still used the term hoplite for the sarrisa armed infantry even in 1148AD.

And if some one can make Byzantine Infantry with 2 light javelins? make them 225/250 cost, and the same infantry spec's, just with a javelin included.

Landsknecht has more than one meaning, it can be farmer or Retainer.

An Reiter is a rider, nothing more.

Through Schools want us to learn Languages to be friendly to foreigners, they logiacally don't teach us the Military English. I don't think you learned Military german.

Just to clarify.

****HOPLITE****
Early period
Cost 350Florins.
Spearmaker3 Armourer1
Unit 100.
Rows Perferred 5
Support costs 75
March 6
Run 9
Charge 10

Charge 5
Morale 1
Melee 1
Defence 2
Armour 3 (Lamellar & chain).
Honour 2
(Armed with a Sarrisa, and sword).
Attack Cavalry 1
Defend Cavalry 5
V Armour No
Slow to turn.
Perfect formation.
Disciplined.
Samuri yes.
Very Strong Charge.

First three rows can fight.
Large round Shield (gold/Bronze colour).
Bronze Helmet.
Byzantine Only unit.
Valor Bonus Greece.
The unit above is actually one of the Byzantine Infantry used during the start, and before the start of the game.

*******Klivanarioi*******

Where actually how the Ottomans got there Spiahi of the Porte, it was a copy.
The Klivanarioi was actually a very heavily armoured Horse archer who was also used as a Shock Troop. They had Very heavy maces and tended to be unstoppable melee troops as their defence was enormous, Espeically with the Chain and Lamellar armour, with some plate combination. They where also nearly always nobles or minor nobles. Hence good morale and honour.

*******My personal Klivanarioi********
High period
Cost 950Florins.
Horse breeder4, Armourer4
Unit 20.
Rows Perferred 3
Support costs 95
March 9
Run 15
Charge 18

Charge 5
Morale 1
Melee 6
Defence 7
Armour 9 (Lamellar & chain W/ plate, Horse & Rider).
Honour 4
(Armed with a Bow, and Heavy Mace).
V Armour YES. With Mace only

Hey Lord Krazy I checked out your site and congratulations to the work you have so far accomplished. I would however like a closer look at what you have already produced purely to see if the images require a professional clean up.

Wow Krazy !!!

You should be a game developer.. That is some increadible artwork.. Keep up the good work.. Can't wait to see the finished product..

Great job LK....amazing....

It will be nice to organize the new units by period:
classical : roman, greek...
dark ages : visigoths, franks...
middle ages...you know...
Napoleonic..

It will be so great to play historical battles that would use these new units..such as austerlitz, or Poitier (with Charles Martel against the muslim invasion...)

just a thought...

where is krazys website?

i_o_p,
you mean you have not read every
word I have wrote http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
why do I bother http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
hell I don't read
everything I write neither http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
It saves time just to write it.
http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/

Stop calling it my wed site,
peopel will get the wrong
idea.It won't be there very long.
Unless I forget to remove it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Anyway less of the adulation
shit.I just wanted to know
if they were what you were
kinda expecting.
I told you guy's already
I don't do this stuff by
myself we are a collective
a small but growing collective.
We are also part time as we
haven't figured out a way
to mod food yet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
We are called "The Lords"
So my "site" is just their
so you could see some of the things
we are trying to achive
and what you could do to.
We are not experts by any
steach of the imagination.
To use an English vernacular,
we are a bunch of blaggers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It's just fun :

Thanks for all the bullshit anyway .

fenir,
that will be usefull
thank you.


Fearless,
same goes ,if you can't see that
from what you have seen already,
or was that a polite way of saying
so.

King David ,
Cajones!no son tantos buenos,
pero,sin embargo gracias.

Adios amibas

LK(not the only lord in town)

p.s. if you mail me, you will
run a serious risk of
me replying http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Man Diz Community is even crzier than I thought !!!

Kray u must be totally krazy coz what u got on that web site looks totally cool !!!

Can you please add a Janissary unit:

Janissary Musketeer

This is to follow the historical guidelines wher Janissaries were among the first to use gunpowder weapons. They still carried sords for melee and wielded them fircely once engaged in hand to hand combat.

Consider this a medium Janissary unit with gunpowder range capacity and the melee of an Elite troop, like the Knights.

Awesome work man !

Knights with Flails - like mounted bishops or something all in red or purple with those pointy armored helms

foot nights with large 2 handed bastard swords - small unit size

flaming arrows archers

battering rams

barbarians with furs and animal skins and spiked clubs

catapults that fire animal and human carcasses and heads

Quote Originally posted by YunDog:
Knights with Flails - like mounted bishops or something all in red or purple with those pointy armored helms

foot nights with large 2 handed bastard swords - small unit size

flaming arrows archers

battering rams

barbarians with furs and animal skins and spiked clubs

catapults that fire animal and human carcasses and heads

[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
OK I'v learned a lot of Australian
from Baroccas readmes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
so lets see if I'v got
this right.
You want

A Knight formaly none as Prince.

A large two handed bastard.

F*%#ing arrows.

A dangerous sheep.

A rugby team wearing expencive coats
in a Perth night spot.

And the All Blacks aswell http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
---------------------------------------------

Spiky clubs is all you can have
for the moment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

I'd like to give you all these
things, but if you got nothing to
do read the rest of the thread and you'll
see why.It's not personal it's just
unit animation is not on the agenda at the moment, well not for release anyway.
regards,
LK

LOL

youll be a citizen soon - do you love beer more than life itself and only talk about sport and war, in that order

ya I was having a read, but no harm in dreaming
keep up the grouse clobba

onya
Yun

fenir, did you accually make those byzantine units, or is it just your idea. if you accually made them, id like to get my hands on em!

I'd like to see F16'f, Apaches & u noats in your patch... if that cant be done make me some Elephaunts! Gah! Work now slave! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

Quote Originally posted by Mithrandir:
I'd like to see F16'f, Apaches & u noats in your patch... if that cant be done make me some Elephaunts! Gah! Work now slave! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.[/QUOTE]

Mith,

If you can image all the requirements for Apache Helo's - we can make them visually correct (hovering, flying etc http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

One problem. They either shoot arrows instead of Sidewinders or your archers units have some pretty heavy capabilities!

ick_of_pick,

They where/are my pet project at present. I have done all the file editing, but am trying to do the actual lbm & Bif files. SO, at present, no they aren't finished.
I posted them here for the "Lords" so if they got the Bif and lbm files done, I would up load the lot to the .org DL list, (barrocca's grace approving of course).

But if the "Lords can do the bif and lbm files, and pass them over to me, I will have the files up in 24hours, Testing allowing.

PS: I will let you know asap when they are finished http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I am also trying to do the lbm and bif, so I can practise. But it is very slow going. (newbie at this part).

But hopefully it won't be to long.

I will then do the Egyptians, as they are missing a few units.

The units.
They are actually based on real Byzantine units that existed. Both prof. and Aux.
I have also taken into account the differences in western mail/plate and the eastern mail and Lamellar amour strenghts, (lamellar being strong and lighter and not used by the west until the 20th century tanks). Not to mention the training etc...
But most of the units are made up from Byzantine narrations and descriptions.

So i will continue this over into Egyptians as well. Then maybe some others. All will be as accurate as possible.

Lord Krazy
Yeah, Don't forget those "All Blacks".

*starts singing.... Bledisloe Cup... come home.....to the place....where you belong.... for 57 years.... you know where you belong...... western pacific......New Zealand....come on home....*

hehehehe

PSS: Now give us back our World cup. :P~


fenir

I kinda like aussi rules myself
although I think they should call
lack of rules http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It's galic football played
with a rugby ball on a cricket
field.Now that's what I call
creative http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

When you have tested your units
send them to me and then I can just
paste them in, the way you want
them.
As regards to icons we have x amount
done but not sure which ones are best
for what yet.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Thanks Lord Krazy, I should have them finished today.

I will Email them to you in a few hours time.

The Bif's and Lbm's I am still learning how to use psp7 so they won't be anytime soonish http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Hence asking the "Lords" of graphics to meet the task :P~

fenir

thanx, heres my e-mail if its of any use..
rickeshoo@hotmail.com

if lamellar is stronger, then shouldnt klivs have armour 10 or something?

OK seen as loads of stuff didn't make it over from the
last board I'm going to write it all out again,
no chance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I'll be posting 10 units later on today.
These will be a sample of whats to come.

RoyalFootKnights for each period
Basquespearmen,
Templar,Teutonic and Santiago Foot Knights
IrishFootKnights,
CumanMercenaryCavalry,(Left overs from CA)
GoldenHoardAuxillaryCavalry("")


I'll aim to post about 50 units by the end of the week.
This is a projection not a promise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
these units will also be betas for testing.

Another thing, I do NOT kwno for a fact, how many units this game can take.All I know is,I only encountered problems
at 100+ I never verified what that problem was.
For all I know the units might go all the way down to
last row of the work sheet.
So if anyone has a day or two to spare.
C ya

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Hooray, I can finally post here.
I posted this earlier, in the entrance hall.
In case nobody goes there, I'd like to post it again here, in the appropriate thread.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on the Byzantines.
Rosacrux has ammended some of it already but I've wanted to post this for a long time, so here goes:

I'm sorry to say that I was a bit dissapointed with the Byzantine units in MTW. They are all wrong. Mainly the name giving is confused.
I realised how much work is involved with modding the units.
Simply renaming existing units will save a lot of work. Hope it's not too late already LK. There would also be saving of slots for more units.

First off the kataphraktoi in the game should be called Klibanophoroi. In Roman times Cataphracts (or Cataphractarii) were very heavily armoured cavalry on completely barded horses. Clibanarii were mounted on horses that had only frontal barding and they could be equipped with bows.
Somewhere along the line these terms got switched around.
In Byzantine times kataphraktoi would be your regular heavy cavalry.
Thus, the unit called 'Byzantine Cavalry' in the game, should be called 'Kataphraktoi'.

The Pronoia Allagion cavalry would also be Kataphractoi. Pronoiai were the equivalent of european knights. In the sense that they were soldiers given land in return for serivce in the army.
Why the devellopers tagged the Allagion bit to Pronoia, I don't get. Allagion is simply a unit name, like 'battalion' or 'regiment'.
Arguably these people might be able to afford better equipment, so they might warrant a distinct unit that is better armoured than your normal cavalry.

A Byzantine infantry allagion could consist of more than one troop type.
It would have normal heavy infantry, called skutatoi, after the Roman word for shield, scutum. They carried a long spear and the kite shield. Front ranks would be very heavily armoured.
They would have an integral number of archers, possibly also armoured.
Next to the heavy infantry would be light infantry, or psiloi. These would be light archers, slingers and javelineers.
One source also mentions another small group of heavies that would be part of the allagion. They are supposed to be armed with a heavy throwing spear, called a menaulion. Thus they were called menaulatoi

So, to conclude the renaming, the 'Byzantine Infantry' should be renamed 'Skutatoi' and the 'trebizond archers' should be 'Psiloi Archers'.


Editing units:
The 'new' Kataphractoi units should be given spears and shields, plus heavier armour. The Pronoiai should also be given bows and even heavier armour (class 8 or 9?).
Dunno if 10 is possible but lamellar is indeed quite effective. There is an account of a cavalry man unhorsed by a 'Frankish' knight's lance and simply getting back on his horse, twice.

The Skutatoi should have a spear(kontos or a smaller version, the kontarion) and, if you want to emulate the super-heavy front ranks, you could also increase their armour (currently 3). But you would have to make them slower as well, let's remain fair.
All bows should be MTLG instead of SBOW. The SBOW is just a simple short or self bow, a stick with a string.
The Byzantines and eastern countries used the composite bow. This was composed of wood, bone, horn and sinew and was much more powerful. If you want you can edit the MTLG bow in projectiels.txt to give it slightly more range and armour penetration.

BTW, I don't think the 'Psiloi Archers' should have such a bite as the current Trebizond Archers have. Yes, they had a small shield and a side arm but their axe is only a small hand axe. They would still be mainly light infantry and wouldn't stand up to anything but other light infantry.


New units that could be created would be the regular archers and psiloi javelineers. Creating psiloi slingers would involve adding a new projectile type and new animation. Is that being done atm?
Slings would be effective against medium armour. Mail won't protect you against the impact of a lead slingshot bullet, your arm would still break. Even with a helmet on, you would still be concussed, if it hit you on the head.

I think staffslings were also mentioned by someone, those would be nice. Staffslings could hurl naphta containers.
Another new projectile could be the martiobarbulus, a heavy dart. It was carried by the Late Roman and early Byzantine infantry, at least and maybe later.

Oh, yes. Light Cavalry.
The Byzantines used huge numbers of auxiliaries: Patzinaks, Alans, Cumans, Turks etc etc. The generic 'Horse Archer' in the game would cover them all. So no need for new units there, really. Adding more distinct horse archers only makes it more difficult to retrain and merge the units.

There is, however, an actual Byzantine Light Cavalry type.
The Trapezitoi. They were unarmoured but carried a largish shield (against all them pesky arrows) a lance and javelins. They were highly skilled riders, our word trapeze artist stems from these guys. Ideal pursuit cavalry to increase the number of kills after the enemy general runs for his women.
I'm working on an add-on for them now.

OK, hope this has been a bit useful.
At least I've been able to post some of what I've been wanting to write.

I do disagree with a couple of the points made (as for instance about the Trebizond archers, as the bulk of the regular Byzantine archers originated from Trebizond, with a tradition similar to the Welsh, so to say and as for the Kataphraktoi vs Klivanarioi/klivanophorioi thing there more opinions than scholars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif ) but I do agree on most points made.

But... I don't see you mention the Hosarioi, the light border-guards cavalry Byzantium deployed in the Balkan provinces and especially in Greece and Serbia in different time periods. The lack of a light non-bow cavalry unit for the Byzantines in this game is quite obvious so those would fill the gap.

Generally though I am pleased to find another MTW gamer with a vast interest in Byzantine history and warfare. At least, a game that lets us enact the great Eastern Roman Empire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif

Grtz,
Yeah, doing a quick scan of my books on the subject, I couldn't find a mention of the hosarioi. So I decided not to mention them.
Can't write about what I don't know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
But from your description they resemble the trapezitoi, being armed with javelins. Maybe they are the same? Though I got the impression that trapezitoi were regulars.

Btw, speaking of javelins. I think that infantry javelins would have less armour penetration than a javelin thrown with the added momentum of a charging horse. But that might just be too much detail, also because it wouldn't always be thrown in the direction of the gallop.

And I agree with you, Byzantines should actually be called Eastern Romans. They called themselves Romans anyway.

No, the Hosarioi (by the word "hosia" which is Greek for "ambush" - see where this gets us?) are a later evolution (actually another incarnation of the famous Akrites, but without the land-owning privileges of those) being more an irregular police-force than a regular army unit. But they did took part in most campaigns after 1000 AD in reconaissance/scouting and pursuing duties and that's why I see them fit in the timeframe of the game.

And, yes, "Byzantine" is just a term invented (by a 17th century French scholar, I think) to differiantate the distinct culture of the eastern (mostly Greek) Roman Empire from the previous (Latin) Roman Empire. They called themselves "Romaioi" which is Greek for "Romans".

Ok guys enough on the greek thing
i just wanted to know more or less what they looked like
and what weapon and stats, the person that suggested them,
wanted.
So the ones Rosacrux picked will be done that way
(to the best of our abilities)and likewise for the rest.

The first thing I have to do is redo the prod11
for all these units this will be done on a generic basis at first.Then I will add amendments to individualise them.
This process has only been done to some of my units so far.
The greeks will be done next, so seen as your all hot
a bothered about them right now it seems a good time to get
them done.As you may know fenir is interested in this area so he will have a big say in this as he is making
these units also.

I will not be drawn into a historical debate on this issue
as it's not practical at the moment.
The spelling of a unit is personal choice
I will not ammend it for historical reasons
at the moment.No point having the right name for a unit that does not work properly.
So if Rosacrux said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]- Klivanarioi(or Klivanophoroi): Heavy cavalry, the "tank" of the Byzantine army (something like the lancers). Great charge bonus, relatively slow (not lika Kataphractoi though) and all-armoured.


- Hosarioi: Light cavalry, armed with bows or javelins and lances. Good skirmishers and in pursuit, no armour. Region dependant (they came from Greece and Serbia). Maybe the hungarians should have those too (that's where they borrowed the term "hussar" from, anyway).


- Skutatoi: Light infantry, fast and armed with spear and shield, light armoured.


- Psiloi: "Psiloi" is a generic term to define the auxiliary troops that had no armor at all and acted as a supplement to the professional or regular army. Of those, you could make a decent Javelin unit for the Byzantines (they lack one). No armor, no shield, fast, low morale. armed with javelins and little axes and/or swords.

---

Then that is what I am going to do.

At the moment my head is like one of those prod
files opened in word "all over the place"
so less of the nit picking for now.

Tell me where I can blag some images of these guys
on the net if pos.

btw Latro you don't have to be a member of anything to mail
me.My address is in my profile.I recieve mail from
non members of this forum and I welcome it.
So no excuse buddy;)
The fact I hardly never read the other forums
and I mean forums I don't just mean
the enterance hall is I don't have the time.
When I have time I do but not now.
So if anyone else want's to make a point to me
and can not poet here mail me.
I promise I will at least read it
and if the weather allows I will even reply
god fobid;)

Later
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Archers Tomorrow
thats not a quote it will be an upload http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

OK. here are some quick links for pics.

Here are two plates from the Osprey Men-at-Arms series.

This sitehas some modern reconstructions of Byzantine equipment.

You might also want to have a look at DBAOL army lists

another nice site, in spanish though.

Thanks Larto ,that is very productive.
Btw Spanish is a language I speak so
thats not a problema http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
I'v turned all the units in
the game into Byzantians
I just need a Hundered odd
Byzantian names for them
and you could have
Byzantian MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I'll release the archers later
about 10 or so
and the Byzantians at the weekend
I hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
regards'
LK

Kataphraktoi v. Klibanophoroi As far as I am aware this debate is still on going in the History of Byzantine warfare http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
But there is sufficient evidence to suggest that it is Kataphraktoi that was adpoted by the Romans (west) from the Hellenics. A development process of the more famous Thessealyian cavalry.

Kataphraktoi , As describe by the Byzantines themselves, was orginally four layers of chain mail, later with chain mail and lamellar armour. And finally with added plate armour.
They where perhaps, and by all accounts, the KingTiger of the battlefield. There are many descriptions of the Kataphrataktoi units wiping out Frankish Knights without loss to themselves. circa 1101 first crusade & Normans 1085-1094AD.

It is however without a doubt, they where far superior to the western Knight, espeically in the early period and most research in the last 20 years tends to be absolute in these terms. They where trained, and equiped to some of the highest levels, by any standard of their times.
Their honour was also above question as usually the Katapharaktoi where from Noble families. Hellenic term, good family.
It actually took the West well over 100 years to get even close to the levels of Byzantine arms and armour.

Klibanophoroi
y all accounts the Klibanophoroi was a melee speicalist. They where heavy armoured (horse included) horse archers, the Turkish where so impressed they copied them. Sipahi of the Porte.

Pronoia Allagion
However the Pronoia Allagion differ from the Katapharaktoi by the fact that the Pronoia where in fact not nobles, but usually ex- soliders, or settled troops for border duties or immediate duty with policing control in the provinces.
Where as the Katapharaktoi where usually of "Noble" or "Good Family". Donoting that they where of social or military importance. Henced based in the Capital. Pronoia Allagion could also be of a minor nobility,

Honsarioi ... Prokoursatores
Medium Cavalry. Usually settled troops or peoples in border provinces, tasked with a farming and guard duty type activity.


Pronoia Allagion,
Allagion is simply a unit name, like 'battalion' or 'regiment'. Yes that is true, but for many people they have no idea of Hellenic terms and ideas, so it is more there as an identification of the unit Pronoia I suspect.

Think of it as this.
Allagion = Legion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif (Al - Lagion) or A legion roughly.

Therefore a legion of Pronoia. Hope that helps.

It goes along the same lines of the Byzantines and how they refer to their own units as Hoplites. Therefore donoting that they where in fact Sarrisa type armed or Javelin armed, with a shield and sword.
They also quite often used the term phalanx as a replace for legion or Allagion.
Such as a Phalanx of Hoplite. Or a Allagion of Hoplite.

A Byzantine infantry allagion could consist of more than one troop type.
Yes, Byzantines used a combined arms strategy as a matter of basic teachings in military warfare, this means both tactics and personal.
The standard infantryman was also still equiped with two javelins at times.

Psiloi any light infantry of usually a missile varity. Usually area depended naming
Skutatoi, usually a polearmed Infantryman, along a hoplite tradition not always heavy.
Menaulatoi usually a medium Infantryman with a Javelin or two. But it depends on a lot of other influences.
Hoplite usually a heavy infantryman sometimes polearmed.

In my Defense http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Ultimately, I have used generic terms and standard ideas of Hellenic troop types known to many people, mainly because they have know idea of how complex the Byzantine military machine was compared to the West or the East. And it is difficult for a game to reproduce.

My only concern is that the Byzantine units are not given the due that is owed them.
They where truely fantastic units, far in advanced of tactics and training than the East or West. Included would be the armour and arms, which where also far superior to both east or West.


On a side note, my Katapharaktoi in my game have up stats to represent their more historical position.

Charge 10...Simply put, they where huge, they where armoured, stopping them would be impossible short of using a Bulldozer.
Moral 8 they where nobles, just not stupid like Latins.
Melee 6 They where better than Knights in a Melee so why not.
Defence 7 , should be good.
Amour 8 Their descriptions alone warrant this.

And they are now faster than a Camel. As there are to many descriptions of them over running camels in a chase.

Cost? 1250 Florins
Support? 155 Florins.


fenir

Acknowledgements.
Praecepta Militaria 965AD by Nikephoros Phokas
Eric McGeer, Sowing the Dragon's Teeth, Washington 1995 Translation.
Tim Dawson, 'Suntagma Hoplôn: the equipment of regular Byzantine troops, c. 950 to c. 1204'
David Nicolle (ed.) A Companion to Medieval Arms and Armour, Boydell and Brewer, London

so , from where i can download this units?

btw Lord Krazy if u need references about wallachian troups e-mail me ;my adress is in my profile