The Empire Strikes Back! ...against their former colonial overlords

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Exactly. Which is why you paid vast sums of money for a safe escape route to France. :tongue:

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Yes but I'd have to get past the M25 and that :daisy: called London first. So I probably wouldn't bother. :book:

Going by the amount of ":daisy:" you seem to have on your island it's even more surprising that you think you're special in a positive way... ~;)

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Originally Posted by Husar

I can respect that, but I also don't see a need to try and support that by saying you're oh-so different when you're not and neither do I really see the point in fighting european integration vigorously as if it would completely ruin everybody who participates. :shrug:
I'm not supporting everything the EU does either but I still support a united Europe in general.

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i only oppose it when it threatens to drag britain into the mess too.

We want a divided Europe, not to join it.

~:smoking:

Do we? Was there a memo?

Does the last 500 years count?

~:smoking:

No. Not in the least.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

No. Not in the least.

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So much for us Americans forgetting history.

Yes. British culture is predisposed toward a divided Europe. The further up the social ladder you go, the more likely it is to be true.

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

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Then perhaps memory isn't the issue and analysis is. Relationships and interests form over time. The longer the time, the deeper and more involved the interests.

Far from stupid, it's actually quite rational.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

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i believe rory was being flippant............

Aye, I know. I was attempting to do the same. And failing, apparently.

@ Vladimir: I've been picking m' nose longer than I've been walking. As it grew, so too did the involvement of my digits within it. Should I indulge this habit as a personal tradition that's proven profitable (or at least mildly interesting) in the past, or grow up and realise that I now look an absolute tit? You shouldn't cling to past form when everything around you's changing, surely. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the occasional rummage.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

@ Vladimir: I've been picking m' nose longer than I've been walking. As it grew, so too did the involvement of my digits within it. Should I indulge this habit as a personal tradition that's proven profitable (or at least mildly interesting) in the past, or grow up and realise that I now look an absolute tit? You shouldn't cling to past form when everything around you's changing, surely. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the occasional rummage.

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Just so long as you don't have your finger in up to the 4th knuckle, you should be alright.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Does the last 500 years count?

~:smoking:

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'mericans don't kill injuns anymore, Germans don't wear pointy helmets anymore, and France no longer regards the rest of Europe as puny semi-civilised nations to be plundered at will for the latest French powerscheme.

The days when a French - British war would determine the fate of North America and India are well and truly over. (More's the pity! With the rosbifs bogged down in Asia now would be a great time to attack). A divided Europe no longer is a pillar of British security, no more than Elisabeth is Empress of India or the royal Navy is as large as the second two combined.

quite so, and i do not want a divided europe.'


however, i do believe their are limits to how united a europe you create before the stress imposed by ever-deeper-union creates a negative feedback whereby cultural integration and harmony starts to reverse as a backlash.

we already have peace in europe, legislative cooperation, and free movement of goods and people, shang-ri-la is here already, but continued enforced integration is actually destroying this harmony by forcing all kinds of cultural impositions on the various peoples within europe.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Then perhaps memory isn't the issue and analysis is. Relationships and interests form over time. The longer the time, the deeper and more involved the interests.

Far from stupid, it's actually quite rational.

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It's inflexible and we all know what happens to inflexible things in these flexible times, they fall apart... ~;)

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

quite so, and i do not want a divided europe.'


however, i do believe their are limits to how united a europe you create before the stress imposed by ever-deeper-union creates a negative feedback whereby cultural integration and harmony starts to reverse as a backlash.

we already have peace in europe, legislative cooperation, and free movement of goods and people, shang-ri-la is here already, but continued enforced integration is actually destroying this harmony by forcing all kinds of cultural impositions on the various peoples within europe.

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I agree, and I would add that recent EU expansion has killed any hope of real "Union" by increasing cultural diversity beyond a reasonable tollerance level. It is hard enough to imagine France, Britian, Italy, Spain and Germany forging a common governmental structure, adding in the former Eastern Bloc countries (and then Turkey) makes it impossible in the current climate. In fact, we are seeing increasingly popular separatist movements, not just in Basque country and Northern Ireland but in areas like Scotland and Catalonia, even parts of (shock!) Germany.

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Originally Posted by Husar

It's inflexible and we all know what happens to inflexible things in these flexible times, they fall apart... ~;)

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Yep. The best way is to gradually wear it down like with water.

I would love to see a more united Europe. Among other things, it moves us closer to removing most of our military from Europe. I'm interested to see if their social model will survive if they have to provide for their own defense again.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The days when a French - British war would determine the fate of North America and India are well and truly over. (More's the pity! With the rosbifs bogged down in Asia now would be a great time to attack).

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The first thing I've read here in while that actually had me LOL!

Thankyou Louis.

:bow: