No disagreements here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
No disagreements here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
That's a fair enough point.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
But look back at my previous post in this thread.
Yes, you've been naughty in the past, but I also know that you're an ok guy, intelligent and with a good sense of humour.
If those topics you mentioned interest you, then why don't YOU start a thread in the BR about it? Are you shy or lacking in self confidence? I, for one, like you ACIN, and, as I told you a while ago through pm, I have been enjoying some of your posts in the BR very much.
You seem to care about this place :bow:
Nobody is holding you back taking a leading role in bringing the BR, or other parts of the forum, for that matter, back to its' glory days.
If you want things to change, then usually sitting around and screaming that you want to see things changing is not enough. Take the first steps yourself. Lead by example. I'm sure you're one of those patrons who can help to improve this forum.
Many members started off "bad" and became seniors or even mods later on.
Why not you?
You want to talk about the new chinese stealth plane? Open a thread about it. A thread about taxes? Well, make an interesting OP and other people will post.
Yelling at each other won't help, au contraire. Working together will.
:bow:
That's the spirit :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysimachus
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysimachus
I will try to make more threads, but I think it still goes without saying that I cannot do it all by myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
While you're at it, may I suggest you consider your temper and attitude too?Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Outbursts like the ones in this thread are what drive mature posters away. With them gone, everything else discussed in this thread becomes rather moot.
:sweetheart:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
New members must be welcomed and interacted with. If they are ignored or treated poorly, they won't stick around. That is what I think anyway.
Later when they have become used to the forum and post more often or regularly, then, you can treat them poorly. Tis a good acceptance ritual.
So much fighting in one thread, where's the love?
Anyway, as much as the OT area is the .org, the forum cannot survive if the TW series continues to deteriorate. That is essentially the main pull and if the series continues to dip then so will the forum. Then again saying that, sales at least would suggest TW has gone from strength to strength. If that's the case, the staff and the patrons need to seriously look at this community and ask the question; "why are places like TWC getting a far larger share of the traffic than here?"
For my part the reason I don't post as much is simply because the OT has become of limited interest. I posted in the STW2 MP forums a few months back but that settled down a bit. I'll probably post there again when the game is nearer release however. As for the Backroom and other Tavern sub-forums, the simple reason I don't post as much is because activity is down and as a result there's a lack of interesting topics. If you look about 8 months back when there were lots of British/ world politics threads on to go, I was very active. Now the scope of threads tend to be very narrow and topic either don't interest me or lack the depth I used to expect from a Backroom thread. The Frontroom activity has also dipped significantly, although I never posted there as much.
Although I don't post as often, I still visit the .org more than once a day. It's still my most viewed web page apparently. Part of that's down to new commitments in real life which quite simply leaves me with less time, part of it is the reasons stated above. Regardless however, I will be here as long as this forum is here. I've not stopped visiting yet and I don't plan to any time in the near future.
Lecturing people can also drive posters away, certainly when done in a public thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Besides, outbursts like that, while not always acceptable, can also be read as "I care about this place" :bow: While he could have chosen his words more carefully, the outburst doesn't mean ACIN is a bad patron.
ACIN cares, so he gets emotional. Some of us can keep their emotions better under control than others :shrug:
It's a vicious circle, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
Not much activity -> I no longer post -> even less activity -> others no longer post.
If you want the BR to stay alive, you have to keep posting. If you make your posts quality posts, they will attract new contributors. If you, however, run away, then no new people will get attracted.
Other members used to play the leading role in the subforum; they left, for a variety of reasons. Maybe it's time for those left to step up and play the leading role those that left used to play.
And you shouldn't. But the least you can do, if you truly care, is trying :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by ACIN
But they were so strong... and we are so... so... weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Lecturing in a public thread....like you are doing right now you mean? ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Andres
:cheerleader:
But you are not ... people.... you are a mod, lecturing a mod always attract people ;)
:wink3:
Yes, yes it is a vicious circle, the point is though I can't force myself to be interested. If I post a British related thread in the Backroom now it will normally only reach 2 pages/ 3 pages tops. There used to be a time where it could go on for multiple pages but that time is no more. I largely stopped posting them because of that and also because they tended to follow the same formality of debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Meh, threads longer than 5 pages are usually people repeating themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
I prefer a three page long thread with interesting posts of high quality over 10 pages of drivel.
On the running of the Backroom, if I may say -I don't think it should be open, but maybe more advertised. Some sensible and manageable control over what is hosted by the website is clearly needed yet the frankness of the discussions needs to be preserved. I think the Org's requirements for civility are commendable, as has been mentioned above, this is the exception rather than the norm for inter-tube based talking shops.
That said, I have felt there is a bit of an itchy trigger finger on the "close thread" button recently. It's not always clear exactly why a thread has been closed -which obviously suggests that some authoritarian mod needs more time for their evil world dominating side project than a continued discussion would allow. If it's a temporary thread closure to act as a cooling off period, fine, just say so please!
The thing is, some people don't change their opinions, so discussion part comes slightly pointless, hence why it degrades in quality.
I dunno, I changed my opinion on global warming/climate change/climate disruption. :book:
Provided sufficient evidence is put forth, i'm sure someone's views can be changed. It's only on a topic such as religion or anything else subjective that it's hard to make someone budge because there's nothing particularly conclusive to make them change their mind, whereas if it was say a more historical topic then provided you give enough evidence and have a logical viewpoint then i'm sure it would be accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I stumbled on the .Org, years ago, because I wanted a guide for MTW. Lo and behold the .Org had this wonderful beginners guide by Frogbeastegg (Lady Frog as most of you know her). With that and the ecellent and helpful advice of amongst others EatYourGreens in the mead hall I became hooked to the Org.
The next game in the TW-series I bought was ETW. Unfortunatly when I was looking for appropriate guides, I wound up at the center and the helpful threads in the forum quickly died out. This is the core of the problem for me. People go to game forums for help and then can stay around for the conversation.
In short instead of discussing what to do with the backroom, we better make sure we are ready for S2TW and be as helpful as we can for new members.
I don't think it's a lack of sufficient evidence. People often don't value knowledge more than they do believing in something that suits their self interest, fits with their self image, meshes with their friends and peer group, and coheres with the believes that result from the previous three motivations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysimachus
Ah, it's not just about convincing. What would it be to me if some anonymous guy five thousand kilometers away finally sees the light and accepts my wisdom?
No, it is more about enrichment through taking note of a wide variety of opinions, of seeing them in the context of a full personality. Much richer than an opinion poll. In that sense, nobody has ever written something on the .org that did not change my mind.
Other than that, I enjoy a little debate the same way I enjoy a game of football. Just some guys kicking a ball around, trying their tricks, pretending they are Messi vs Kaka. Plus I enjoy my own writings so much I giggle uncontrollably most of the time I'm at the .org. Also I have this thing for those clicky sounds of my fingers typing.
That's really quite commendable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
It takes a man to admit he was wrong. :bow:
I remember one of my first backroom threads I posted in was a gun control thread and my ignorance was respectfully highlighted and challenged by CR. He convinced me to do a complete 180 on the subject and now I am pretty much a status quo (3 day wait, background check, permit, here is your gun) kind of guy that is happy about the gun bans being ruled unconstitutional.
EDIT: So I will have to say thank you to CR for that.
guilty of maintaining the same opinion on that one guv'nor. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
the backroom should remain essentially private.
This is why we're BFFFSQuote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Just some more thoughts on top of the very good ones already posted.
The Tavern and all miscellaneous forums are definitely important, in fact when I started posting again in late 2008 up until now, about 80% of my activity is in them. Compare that with 2006 and 2007 where I used to post a ton in the EB forums and also read the R:TW forums a ton, even though I also frequented the Backroom a ton.
But like what happened with the games themselves (R:TW got old eventually, even EB's utility was spent - M2:TW much faster in that regard) even the OT forums get stale after awhile. The topics in the Backroom are generally cyclical, and I feel I got most of the arguing out of my system by now. I still go in there to spar at times, but nothing like before. Like it's all been said before. :shrug: The Gameroom was really amazing in late 2006 and early 2007 and again in late 2008 and much of 2009 and so most of my attention was there, especially in the second time slot. But Mafia gets old too, you play with the same players and do the same things. :shrug: The influx of the CFC players did liven it up for a bit again, but I'm at the point where I play generally only in games that invite once or twice every couple of months or so, whereas I was continuously in games for consecutive months in a row before.
The thing is, this is a TW forum, and the games are what are going to attract people here. That's why it is so important for Shogun 2 to be a hit, excite the old fanbase, and bring in new people. Some of these people will then stay for the mods, then they will discover the OT forums, and this will replenish the desire of some old posters to become more active in them again.
I had been a member of the .org and for a time a staff member, for several years, until I finally decided to give up on TW and move on. I had vowed not to come back here, ever, but those that know me here know that when there's an itch I cannot resist to scratch... this thread had my attention for a while and finally drew me in.
ACIN is right in many respects, except with respect to the "failure" of the TW games.
From a "veteran's" perspective the series has declined and could be seen as a "failure" - but blaming the series itself for the decline here is sheer blind stupidity and folly to say the least.
While writing this I only have to look at the stats for today (better than the last time I looked a week or two ago in fact) to see what's going on:
There are currently 170 users online. 22 members and 148 guests
I can then head over to TWC and take a look at the same stats for their forums:
Currently Active Users: 1097 (217 members and 880 guests)
So the .org has 22 members logged in, the TWC has 217. There are 880 lurkers/bots viewing the TWC, only 148 viewing the .org.
The members here can criticise TWC all they like. You can laugh at their "juvenile" discussions, extra bling, personal avatars and you can level any criticism you want at them. But to the casual observer, the person thinking of joining this site, this looks bad. Some of the criticism of TWC and some of the preaching and lecturing that goes on here smacks of supreme arrogance, snobbery and elitism. It's not what new members like to see and believe it or not it attracts the "wrong type of member".
I see a lot of talk about "maturity" here. This is a gaming forum, why is maturity a requirement here?
If the TW games are now so very bad, why is it that TWC is thriving while this place is dying a slow painful death?
I think it's fairly simple and it's down to the simple fact that this place has consistently failed to move with the times and those moderating and indeed administrating this board are now for the most part no longer interested in the TW series or gaming. New blood will keep this place alive, old men moaning about how shogun and medieval were better certainly won't. I've been there, done it, been the moaner, been on the fence, taken the opposite side of the argument, etc. I can tell you from experience, there are no winners in this situation only losers..
The answer for the .org is not to emulate the TWC, but to look into relaxing some rules and allow users to upload their own avatars (which should be viewable by logged out users). The imposition of the TW portrait avatars may be a "tradition" here, but it also damages people's perspectives of this place.
The backroom, though not a vital forum, should be open to public scrutiny. There is nothing that is not PG13 in there as no porn is posted nor is there any more swearing in there than in any other part of the forum.
The reason why backroom discussions consists of the same few people debating the same issues, is because any newcomers cannot see the backroom and thus cannot become involved. People become involved in a thread by chancing upon it and just posting randomly on a subject they just happen to know something about. Those people never get the opportunity due to the backroom's closed status.
The moderation is also an issue in there as it consists of the same few people that moderate according to their own political, social and cultural views. Rotating the backroom moderatorship between all of the existing moderators would be a better idea and would mean that members would be judged impartially instead of having previous offences taken into consideration - or having one individual on their case, waiting for them to slip up.
There are also far too many cases where moderators intervene and jump in on petty issues of politeness, etc. If, e.g. the backroom members are expected to be "mature" they need to be allowed to sort out their own problems - moderators should be a last resort. The backroom should have less moderation and less focus than the rest of the .org, but in fact it has much more. This shows where the staff and administration's priorities seem to lie. Untie the members' hands and stop trying to direct the discussion.
A forum like the backroom is the "run off" from the rest of the forum - it's a by product of this place. The rest of the forum is in decline, so the backroom is now feeling it as well. The frontroom has already been in a bad way.
The .org cannot survive as a small community of a few old pals that used to play TW back in 2000 - 2007, now talking about US politics in the backroom or participating forum games in the gameroom. Without the initial draw of TW games, those areas will start to dry up as well. It's also extremely selfish for someone to adopt the "I don't care, I'm just here for the gameroom/backroom" approach.
There is also the hosting here to consider, while it's never been the best, it's always been (AFAIK) free and ad based. If the ads start registering a lower number of hits, the host realises the server space might be put to better use... well I'm sure you get the picture.
I think the staff need to back off and give more liberty and freedom of expression to the members. Staff initiatives won't save this place, for example one moderator writing a blinding article in e.g. the citadel, won't revive interest in M2TW here. A forum is not a place to read articles, people come here to converse and share ideas. Every post will not be a valid post, sometimes people will joke and stray off topic, if no one gets hurt in the process what's the big deal? This is how discussions form and flow - not by moderator intervention. It will be hard if not impossible to convince the staff of this as many are full absorbed into how the .org is run and consider it the "correct" way.
The .org needs to let it's members start living. New people will see this and they will come. Fancy tools and other bling are not needed here, just the basic "rights" of any forumite - to individuality. Take the staff pressure right off especially in offtopic areas, allow the members to upload their own avatars and most importantly get rid of the Junior Member system, so often perceived as snobby and elitist, that is choking this place like a gastric band.
Senior Members should also be abolished. Why have a rank to honour a few members that are selected by the staff and not other members? Where is the credibility in such a system? By all means give a token award (as with the HoF), but a rank that allows for nothing more than a title of seniority and larger PM box is just pointless and alienates the many that are overlooked because they don't post in the same forums as the active mods or the offtopic sections. Who knows, if some of these steps were taken, things just might start to move in the right direction. The alternative is to continue doing what has been done - which isn't working. The decisions on any of this do not of course lie with the moderators here, but with one man alone.
In my opinion it's up to TosaInu to take the initiative here and bring about change for the better, or to step aside for someone that has the time, ability, energy and interest in the TW series and the .org as a whole, that can.
:2cents:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
That's one long post
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Yes, I got carried away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Not yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Only post is in the watchtower, joined today, posts in the watchtower don't count towards users' postcount, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Controversial... a masked poster claiming inside knowledge and experience!
One way or another, the mask will have to come off if you're going to be taken seriously.
Interesting points though, yet I'm not sure why anyone would be so focussed on the choice of personal avatar -doesn't the available range cater for most puerile homo-erotic desires/fetishes? :wink: