[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

In edu 3.0 best archers should be boshporans, after them syrians romans cretans and dacian elite archers, no reason for owerpowering other kind of archers, i noticed also that komatai toxotai have biger range to atack my sagitary when i played with gg2, now with lowing nietos price i see that samnitici milities cost almost same as nietos even nietos are better unit, and other thing, now with new edu and with 36000 mnai spqr in imperial era its almost impossible to bring solid army with some heavy cav in that i mean also merc heavy.... must to say that polybians look exelent like they have to be...

P.S i know that this is just alpha edu and that we are just testing now but i had to post this

Yeah, one of the big issues is army effectiveness at price points. If your army requires fielding a heavy cavalry arm, then you're going to be extremely good at 40K but you'll have to bring levys at 36K so you can actually bring a heavy cavalry arm. But because you have a proliferation of fearful units, it becomes very difficult to actually bring levys since Eagles don't counter act scariness that well and not everyone has access to eagles.

Now because infantry has been buffed extensively, you really need to invest in a heavy cavalry wing to have an effective heavy cavalry wing (ie, you can't bring 2 with only missiles and be fine, you need light infantry escorts and a ton of other things which are countered by the opponent just getting more heavy infantry).

We were able to get it working at 36K because Prodromoi, Celtic Hoplites, Pandas(I used to use them at size 240 AP axes because they were so good in melee), and Thracians were so cost effective and Rome/KH/Gauls/Asian factions were the most played. This wasn't perfect because Carthage/Germania/Luso/Getai weren't very well balanced at 36K with Carthage not being all that effective and the other factions being very good against certain factions and terrible against others.

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

Gaul is a region in western Europe, Gauls are the Celts from that region. The term Celt, while covering the Gauls, also includes people not from Gaul, such as the Celts in Britain, Iberia, Galatia, Egypt etc. etc. In game terms, when you talk about "the Gauls", you speak of the Aedui and the Arverni, while "Celts" would also include the Casse.

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Thank you for clearing that up for me TCV. I appreciate it. :bow:

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As to your point, yes, I do agree, but I think it is only overpowered for the Gauls. For Casse that strategy isn't as strong due to having inferior infantry, especially now that (I take it) the Dubosaverlacica have lost/will lose their fear factor. Since Casse can't get the Gaesatae, their best scare infantry, unless they are given access to the Pictone Neitos, is the Uirodusios, and you know how easily they die.

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I agree. Casse should be promoted. People should be encouraged to play as them. Therefore, we should consider how we may make an exception of sorts for them while not providing the power to the Gauls.

And Antisocialmunky's historical overview of multiplayer EB is pretty accurate. :2thumbsup:

ok germainc auxillary cav are light cav, BUT THEY DONT DIE TO MY ARROW FIRE.

ALL light cav should die to arrow fire to make up for nerfing their armour which im assuming u will do just increase defense skill.

But bottom line ALL light cavalry have to die to arrow fire.

hi im new here

i just have to say listen to Storm he knows what he's talking about.

Its because of accuracy changes. They die jsut as fast as they used to.

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Originally Posted by -Stormrage-

hi im new here

i just have to say listen to Storm he knows what he's talking about.

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Very nice kind of spam ;-)

What do you think about changing every light_spear attribute in spear?
I've tried it and seems that spearmen become better against cavalry and worse against infantry.
I see also phalanx increase the attak power from the front, and weakens in back.

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Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus

Very nice kind of spam ;-)

What do you think about changing every light_spear attribute in spear?
I've tried it and seems that spearmen become better against cavalry and worse against infantry.
I see also phalanx increase the attak power from the front, and weakens in back.

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It also causes buggy behavior and other things. The EB team changed to light_spear because of this, and I am keeping it that way.

Also I will not be online often for the next few days.

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(ie, you can't bring 2 with only missiles and be fine, you need light infantry escorts and a ton of other things which are countered by the opponent just getting more heavy infantry).

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This is where the utility of javelin cavalry comes in: they can assault the rear of the enemy line without having to get through the heavy infantry reserve. If the cavalry battle is no longer exclusively a heavy cavalry battle, then I have done my job right!

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Originally Posted by -Stormrage-

ok germainc auxillary cav are light cav, BUT THEY DONT DIE TO MY ARROW FIRE.

ALL light cav should die to arrow fire to make up for nerfing their armour which im assuming u will do just increase defense skill.

But bottom line ALL light cavalry have to die to arrow fire.

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I am glad to see that my use of Germanic Auxiliaries is spreading to the main Roman players. In any event, they don't have much armor but they have a 3 shield which makes them pretty resilient to missiles. 3 shield light cavalry are not common. They are also quite expensive for light cav so I wouldn't complain too much Storm.

As far as differentiating Casse from the Gauls, taking Druids away from the Gallic factions solves this problem a bit. Also, Casse get great skirmishers along with some of the best flanking infantry in the game in the Kluddargos. Along with prevalent eagle units including a medium infantry eagle unit, Casse are one of the more interesting facitons.

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

As far as differentiating Casse from the Gauls, taking Druids away from the Gallic factions solves this problem a bit. Also, Casse get great skirmishers along with some of the best flanking infantry in the game in the Kluddargos. Along with prevalent eagle units including a medium infantry eagle unit, Casse are one of the more interesting facitons.

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They might be an interesting faction, true, and they do stand out from the crowd - but that doesn't say anything at all about their strength relative to the other factions, which you must admit is poor.

The Cwmyr (which I think you're referring to with the "medium infantry bit") are nothing but a waste of money in 2.1.1. For 80 men and a little more than 1.7k their biggest feat is that they can stay for a longer time than other Casse medium infantry. They didn't do any killing of their own with their shortswords, though. They've been changed for 3.0 though, which I just noticed, and it will be interesting to see how they work now: 1.8k, but with longswords, -2 morale, -1 def skill, +1 armour, +1 shield, +2 jav attack, -6 charge. Perhaps they could be worth it now.

Eagles in and of itself is much less of a deal now that every faction has at least one unit with it, and AFAIK it doesn't stack. Not much of a special benefit, and when you consider that most Casse units have quite the poor morale, and really need those eagles, it doesn't look as alluring as it might have done at first glance.

As for the skirmishers, well, they're at best "good". Sweboz, Getai, Lusotannan, AS, Ptollies, Saba, Baktria, Saka Rauka, Carthage etc. etc. have equal or better skirmishers than Casse. In any case, even if they had been the best skirmishers in the game, what would that have mattered? They're only good at soaking up projectiles, and most people simply don't use them because they don't need them. They're simply not a threat.

Fair enough.

Ilike ACS's idea. GG what bugs r u talking about? maybe they are not often and not really bad ?

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Originally Posted by -Stormrage-

Fair enough.

Ilike ACS's idea. GG what bugs r u talking about? maybe they are not often and not really bad ?

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The bugs it causes aren't worth it at all when we can get where we need to go by altering stats instead of buggy types.

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Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin

I am glad to see that my use of Germanic Auxiliaries is spreading to the main Roman players. In any event, they don't have much armor but they have a 3 shield which makes them pretty resilient to missiles. 3 shield light cavalry are not common. They are also quite expensive for light cav so I wouldn't complain too much Storm.

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Glad to see other ppl are starting to discover units that i've been using for a while now.

Germanic light cav is my main cav for the getai , and not without reason.
Also LAZYO's spam of Iberian assault Infantry comes late after my previous spam of them 1 month ago

Thats good that you see some more 3 shield cav units, previously the only one was the Saka Hellenic cavalry which could take arrows like kataphracts when sitting still.

I thought Lonchophoroi, Apsidophoroi, Campanians and the Liby-Phonecians also had 3 shield values?

That is getting even better, as a bonus has been given to all shields with values 2 or greater, with few exceptions. These all got +1 shield and -1 defense, mainly for the sake of lighter units resiliency, while this has not diminished the utility of javelins at attacking the flanks and rear of heavy infantry.

However, two handed lancers will now have a very slightly more pronounced advantage in the charge.

Germanic Light Cav hasn't been modded yet, only Equites Germanorum. Thus I do not recommend using it for now.

Also I am considering giving warcry to a couple Germanic units, namely those that are supposed to have a powerful charge - clubmen in particular. This will come at additional cost to those select units.

Recalling Caesars De Bello Gallico, Germanic light horse employed by Caesar on his campaigns defeated the Gallic cavalry in melee multiple times, which was important for the Romans as their light cavalry was, on the whole, decidedly inferior to the excellent Gallic light horse. For example one account tells of the Germanic horse assaulting a position held by Vercingetorix' excellent Gallic cavalry on a hill. The Germanics fought their way up the hill, routed the Gauls, and flanked the rest of the Gallic cavalry, causing a rout. On another occasion, they dismounted and fought off the assault of the Gallic horsemen.

You can count on Equites Germanorum, and later you should be able to count on Reidonez, to defeat enemy light cavalry handily, and perhaps hold against heavier horse. Even as late as the 4th century, light, bare chested Germanic cavalry at the battle of Strasbourg routed better armed and more numerous Roman horsemen with ferocious charges.

Change the cavalry mass back to normal. They are overpowered. And Bataroas lost in a melee to iberi velites 0.o

And luso and carthie bodyguards no longer have the eagle...

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Originally Posted by Lazy O

Change the cavalry mass back to normal. They are overpowered. And Bataroas lost in a melee to iberi velites 0.o

And luso and carthie bodyguards no longer have the eagle...

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Agreed, factions that don't have charge cav i.e. Casse are now pretty done for. I used Caledonian Nobles to pin his charge cav but they simply ran through my cav, reformed behind my line and routed about 4 infantry units who were winning that battle in one charge. The extra mass means they kill 2-3 ranks deep from charges where before it was 1-2. If this is meant to be the case, cost needs to be hiked for charge cavalry. Also, extra mass means that is impossible to pin cavalry since they can simply push aside pinning units, especially infantry.

Also, missile units should be reduced again. From what I can see, changes to accuracy are completely undone by the extra men and they still disrupt flanking infantry and such without routing quickly. Also, the closer to the lines they get, the accuracy does not matter as much anymore and higher missile attacks and more men mean they kill even quicker than before.

Addition: New Getic unit causes errorless crashes. Needs to be addressed.

Heres the replay so you know that we are not just rambling nonsense here

http://www.mediafire.com/?dw4zji0qt7qjei7

And the new unit you made is causing crash. If you want il do it for you . You cant create units, you have to edit existing ones.

That sounds strangely like having to deal with BS Macedonian 40K armies...

The Getic unit is causing crashes sadly, I will remove it. Sadface.

I do intend to make up for the lack of heavy lancers for some factions with buffs to the limited cavalry units against other cavalry, i.e. Caledonian Nobles (for example) and particularly the Germanic light cavalry unit.

Missile units ARE being re-reduced, but slightly. Also, shouldn't a missile unit be good at disrupting flanking infantry? It's cavalry you want to run them down with, and I will make this a much more likely possibility with further reductions to mass and morale.

Do expect Cretans, Bosporans, and elite Dacians to hold their ground against cavalry though, just not to be incredibly effective at doing it compared with heavy infantry.

In fact, I CAN add units by modifying a ridiculous number of files, but that isn't too much considering what I've done already. In fact expect another file to get a modification, descr_model_battle (the change is actually to have Armenian cataphracts not have the freaky Iberian chain armored horse, as well as a couple of aesthetic fixes, such as making Elite Africans fight in the manner of Roman Legionaries).

If you want I will add the unit for you. I can remove the mercenary version of the Thraikian Hippies(not used anywhere) and replace it with your unit.

I don't think units like Caledonian nobles should get arbitrary bonus's against cavalry though. That makes little sense as they already can be effective if used properly. My issue with cavalry is that one charge is all that's needed now to rout infantry below 3/4 strength. We had just made skirmisher cav useful in 2.1.1 and now it seems as if charge cavalry will be the only way to go once more.

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the change is actually to have Armenian cataphracts not have the freaky Iberian chain armored horse

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shhh dont tell vartan.

Another thing.Lancer cav Especially Cataphracts should charge the 2-3 rows. I dont know if its possible to give different masses for each unit. But Cataphracts should definitely have crazy mass.'

If you nerf archers even more we will have 30 ammo skirmishers throwing twigs not archers. I think complaints about archers are not due to Overpowered-ness but more due to personal benefit. Naturally Factions with light troops dont want to see their troops shot down by archers.Its like you DONT want or expect archers to kill.

Well we fought another battle with me as Saba and Robin as getai, the Saba are grossly underpowered with the Archer accuracy nerf, 8 120 man archers shooting at 1 Rhompharoi managed to kill just 1 in 11 or 12 volleys.

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Originally Posted by Lazy O

Well we fought another battle with me as Saba and Robin as getai, the Saba are grossly underpowered with the Archer accuracy nerf, 8 120 man archers shooting at 1 Rhompharoi managed to kill just 1 in 11 or 12 volleys.

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I think he is exaggerating but his archers didn't manage to kill much. I think playing with accuracy is alright but the difference is too vast between levied or non-professional archers and the heavier ones. The lower tier archers really don't do much at all.

I no exaggerating :_(

Due to repeated complaints about large missile sizes I nerfed the low tier archers who come in large 120 man units. I guess I will restore their accuracy then, and put Persians up to 120 men.

When I have regular internet access, I am trying to have 4 factions ready: Pontos, Sauromatae, Hayastan, Pahlava. The Getai are getting access to Scythian units, but I have made scythian units smaller than their full size steppe counterparts (exception: scythian nobles).

So you guys are suggesting a re-lowering of charge cavalry mass? I will put the suckers into action myself to see when I test out the new factions.

Well everyone was enjoying the useful skirmisher cav and they still have uses now. However, charge cav now does so much damage on one charge that it is almost impossible to not take 2-3 of them, price be damned. There does need to be some more testing with this though. I'd like to test how effective tired/very tired/exhausted cavalry is as opposed to winded/warmed up/fresh cavalry when charging.

We can do that. Will you be on later today?