Defense Distributed Is The Greatest

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Originally Posted by Idaho

All these waves of immigrants to the US got there only to discover they were expected to fit in and shut up.

The land of the free. Providing universal suffrage since 1968.

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In great contrast to the EU you mean? I'll take the American attitude towards individualism over European collectivist apathy every day, too bad that I don't want to live anywhere else but the Netherlands

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

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And then this American comes into the pub telling everyone how they should not scoff at the American model.
Two days before the fiscal cliff destroys the American economy.

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Originally Posted by Husar

And then this American comes into the pub telling everyone how they should not scoff at the American model.
Two days before the fiscal cliff destroys the American economy.

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Better get used to some hardships as well

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Better get used to some hardships as well

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Don't worry, I'll just print myself some ground horse meat lasagne if it gets too bad.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Don't worry, I'll just print myself some ground horse meat lasagne if it gets too bad.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6WzyUgbT5A

there way ahead of ye

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Originally Posted by Fragony

In great contrast to the EU you mean? I'll take the American attitude towards individualism over European collectivist apathy every day, too bad that I don't want to live anywhere else but the Netherlands

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:laugh4: you are an archetypal conservative frag. A bundle of contradictions.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

:laugh4: you are an archetypal conservative frag. A bundle of contradictions.

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Not really, there is a desillusioned idealism to cynism

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

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I can't believe I missed this post. Nominated for Post of the Year!

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Originally Posted by Fragony

In great Dutch tradition catholic services were tolerated, there were arrangements to keep it invisible though. It was outlawed nor recognised.

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So.....

Basically, you had the same attitude towarda other religions as the muslims states of the middle ages had?

I agree, that is quite liberal of you.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So.....

Basically, you had the same attitude towarda other religions as the muslims states of the middle ages had?

I agree, that is quite liberal of you.

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What does it matter how they did things ages ago? Wasn't that like, well like hundreds of years ago. Nowadays arab militias are burning down christian churches, you can't know that if you rely on quality newspapers but that's happening

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What does it matter how they did things ages ago? Wasn't that like, well like hundreds of years ago. Nowadays arab militias are burning down christian churches, you can't know that if you rely on quality newspapers but that's happening

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So cute ~:)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So cute ~:)

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So normal, people furiously screaming they are progressive will always defend ultra-conservatism and will never see the inherent contradiction

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Originally Posted by Fragony

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

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Papists don't count.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Papists don't count.

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It just isn't true

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It just isn't true

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What? That catholics were opressed?

Opression is a relative term, I suppose. Catholics weren´t allowed to openly practice or endorse their own religion, and I imagine that would have been a good enough reason for some to emigrate to, say, the USA.

There was no functional hiearchy for the catholic church until the second half of the 19th century, when the last restrictions were lifted and the Pope decided to rebuild the church organisation in the Netherlands. This caused widespread unrest in the protestant parts of the lands, and our king showed his support for the unrest by saying he understood where they were coming from and that he wasn´t a fan of the papists either. This prompted our government (led by Thorbecke) to resign, and this in turn led to the tradition that the king/queen doesn´t open his mouth without consulting the PM.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England.

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Exactly. The Pilgrim Fathers set sail to America because Leiden was a tad too happy to let everyone live side by side without much care for their religions convictions, and the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to create their little utopia wherein they would be the one doing the religious prosecuting of anyone not quite protestant enough (in their eyes).

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Exactly. The Pilgrim Fathers set sail to America because Leiden was a tad too happy to let everyone live side by side without much care for their religions convictions, and the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to create their little utopia wherein they would be the one doing the religious prosecuting of anyone not quite protestant enough (in their eyes).

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... Not sure if sarcastic or misinformed.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It just isn't true

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After the Dutch insurrection, Catholicism was considered an illegal religion. Normal Catholic celebrations were not possible in the United Provinces, therefore Pope Clement VIII decided in 1592 to declare the area above the river Waal as a mission area, as large portions of the area's population had fallen to Protestantism, at least officially, except for some minor staunchly Catholic regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Mission

In practice, Catholic services in all provinces were quickly forbidden and the Reformed Church became the "public" or "privileged" church in the Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic#Religion

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

No he's half right. It went both ways. But this entire discussion is a microcosm of a huge issue: No matter where you are in the world or your station in life, your perspective is still colored by local versions of history. Europeans deny their horrible history even better than we do. But of course we learned from the best

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What I find most intresting is the "national myth" we all have. For example, in Norway it's the image of the "independent farmer"("storbonde" in norwegian, not sure how to translate it properly) as the foundation of our nation. We have a romantic image of the farmer who grew his potatoes, managed his sheep and so on. The manliest of men who managed his life without outside influence. Of course, a quick look at the map tells a different story: we have one of the longest coastlines in the world. The waters outside are filled with fish. Rather than being funded on agriculture in the inner regions, we've been funded on fishing along the coast. Our wealth has come almost exclusively from our merchant navy, indeed those farmers would never have survived if they had not been able to transport wood down the rivers and onto the ships.

I believe the US claim that "an american wants the state to go away" belongs in the same category. It can only be true if you choose to ignore huge parts of your history and population.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Depends on how you pick your generalizations. Pick any American off the street and ask him or her about their grievances with the system, and you'll get an earful. The talking points are partisan but the mistrust of the establishment (not just the government) is universal. It defines us.

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....and you think Europe is any different?

You've read Frag and IA's posts, right?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

No he's half right. It went both ways. But this entire discussion is a microcosm of a huge issue: No matter where you are in the world or your station in life, your perspective is still colored by local versions of history. Europeans deny their horrible history even better than we do. But of course we learned from the best

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We do? I thought we just refused to even acknowledge it's existance and hope the next generations dont find out.

Personally I think the good parts resulting from european history outweigh the bad in the end. I wish, like in every chapter of history, that the bad stuff didnt happen but you gotta take the mistakes into account or risk repeating them.

hmmm mmmm mmmhmmhmm hhmmmm

er, thank you mr. inventor of the chocolate printer

The United States is basically a commonwealth nation.

We are all on the same sliding scale of ideas.

The only place where these places diverge is bigotry

The United States is years ahead of the rest of the commonwealth

Assuming you're talking about the british commonwealth: It's only that way because we split apart.

If I was feeling bitter I'd say it was because of America's meddling that happened.

Oh wait, I am feeling bitter.

What other commonwealth would I be talking about?

Well you just called America a commonwealth so the definition is kinda up in the air.

I think it is sometimes difficult to tell if one nations political trends are being exported to another's, or if these trends developed organically in both countries, with this just happening a little later in one than the other.

I've heard a couple of hints that certain parts of British politics are being 'Americanised' in the sense that we are moving towards a sort of neo-con (eg 'I hate the government)/liberal-left divide. I've even read articles that Britain might be developing something akin to the USA's Religious Right.

I think there is some truth in these observations. But is this because we are being influenced by American politics, or is this a more natural development that resembles what happened in the USA a couple of decades beforehand?

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(unless that ideal is how to conquer--just ask Hitler, he used the USA's treatment of the Indians as one of his justifications for the holocaust; he called the Jews "The Indians of Europe")

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Hah! Good one! Conquer! Hillarious!

Here is another great site about my obsession with guns.

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Yes. Conquer. Through ethnic cleansing and outright imperialism (Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, Phillipene Insurgency, you name it) we had an empire Larger than the Continent of Europe before WWI even started. So, yeah. Its a good blue print.

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Really?

America had one, maybe two bouts of successful conquest (a good part of the mexican land america took was occupied by people who were literally asking to join you, not exactly conquering) then stopped and went on to messy invasions and intentionally temporary occupations.

America is good at propaganda, great at beating up natives, but keeping the lands and peeved off indigenous peoples in your country for any length of time? Kinda lacking compared to European empires, its takings are comparable to belgium. America has a long way to go before it teaches master classes, if you know what I mean.