US Federal Government Shutdown

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they asked that the individual mandate be pushed back until the kinks are better worked out.

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So pass new legislation. If legislation is passed, it is not a legitimate form of opposition to jam the gears of the government at large. At any rate, this has nothing to do with ACA in the least, and it's an insult to our intelligence to claim so.

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What part of "all spending bills originate in the House" is unclear to you?

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What part of 'there are three branches to the federal government' do you not understand? What part of 'there is both a Senate and a House of Representatives' do you not understand?

This is about as reasonable as the President expropriating all assets from the top 1% in net-worth by executive fiat.

I fail to understand what the mere existence of the Senate and Executive has to do with anything. The House passes its bill, the Senate counters with its own and they come to an agreement on what should be funded. The House has said that it has no reason or interest passing funding for the ACA as it exists, but we are willing to fund it with a minor adjustment. You have said no adjustments. They should be discussing other options that recognize the agenda of both parties. Or they can fund government piecemeal. That's how it works. You can say no until you are blue in the face a d it won't get the bill passed. If we crazy people really do have enough votes to scupper the CR, then this could go on forever.

Regarding your analogy of the President seizing assets of individuals without a law allowing it shows how absurd your understanding of the Federal system is. Much less your understanding of the term "analogous"

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I fail to understand what the mere existence of the Senate and Executive has to do with anything.

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Oh, you've made that quite clear by now. :rolleyes:

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The House has said that it has no reason or interest passing funding for the ACA as it exists, but we are willing to fund it with a minor adjustment. You have said no adjustments.

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Horseshit. The ACA is funded. It is the entire federal system that is being attacked here.

A party that controls the majority of government should need not endure the impudence of tiny minorities, in general. Not at all, is any obsequity owed to said minority.

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Regarding your analogy of the President seizing assets of individuals without a law allowing it shows how absurd your understanding of the Federal system is. Much less your understanding of the term "analogous"

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On the contrary, it demonstrates your delusional conception of the current political situation.

Brilliant. Obviously, the fact that they are in an intractable situation shows that they do need to endure the impudence of tiny minorities. Also, obsequity has questionable existence as a word that actually exists, but I guess since you and another person have used it, it is a word now.

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Obviously, the fact that they are in an intractable situation shows that they do need to endure the impudence of tiny minorities.

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:applause:

You all heard it - minority rule is the standard!

Parties should be trying as hard as possible to lose future elections, because after all, it's the minority who gets to run the government!

It's cool when people forget what they're fighting about in the first place. Bravo.

“This is not just about Obamacare anymore,” centrist Rep. Michael Grimm, R-N.Y., said.

“We’re not going to be disrespected,” conservative Rep. Marlin Stutzman, R-Ind., added. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

This has very little to do with Obamacare. It is a diversion to stall and weaken the Federal government and extract concessions, just like everything that congress does has little to do with the theme. The weaker and more dysfunctional the Federal system is, the more money interest groups will pay to States to enact favorable legislation. The more we do this, the weaker the Federal government becomes in a ratio to State power. If we could do this every day I would favor that.

Every day that the government dithers it weakens in relation to those who have their act together. Every day the Federal government weakens, individuals have more of a say in how they live their own lives. Hopefully a weakened Federal government can refocus its energies on core responsibilities.

Maybe we have finally found a way to cut some heads off of the Hydra?

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

The Shutdown is just another political game, and one the Republicans will lose, as usual.

The whole thing is disingenuous, of course.

Up until the one in the 1990s government offices or services had never been curtailed. The civil servants had just continued to work but their pay was often late in coming.

You see, whether civil service remains on the job or not is an executive decision. So, most properly any loss of services to the public is the fault of the POTUS.

Clinton took a page from what several state governors had done and shut down services for the first time, to make the Republicans look bad. He didn’t except continuing resolutions much like what is happening this time.

He was covered by the press, just like this time, only this one is even more dramatic than the last.

It is not going to end well for the Republicans and the best thing they can do is just give in. You might have thought they would have learned from the last time, but as usual they didn’t.

No one is going to blame the President for what they perceive as necessary under the circumstances.

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Polls suggest that at least 30% of the USA blames Obama (though not necessarily exclusively) for the shutdown. They basic mis-calculation there is that GOP representatives have to stand for reelection. Obama does not. The GOP might pick up a little momentum in the next congressional elections, but the only potential shift is in the Senate...and so far that doesn't seem likely based on folks reaction.

Bunch of drama-craving prostitutes, the lot of them.

Separate funding bills? Fine. Omnibus package? Fine.

How about getting the damn budget finished by 1 September for a change.

Instead, we need the drama of a showdown in slow motion. Gack.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

upheld by the Supreme Court

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Just for accuracy's sake: Pretty sure only a couple of aspects of ACA/Obamacare have been challenged in front of the Supremes. So it's not as though the entire law has been vetted and approved by the Men in Black.

Other than that, yeah. The Obomination Kenyan Socialist Pretender has played by the rules: two national elections and a Supreme Court challenge. The Repubs? Not so much.

"We are nihilists, Lebowski, we believe in nothing!"

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Originally Posted by Lemur

"We are nihilists, Lebowski, we believe in nothing!"

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I wonder if Ted Cruz's wife has 9 toes? :inquisitive:

At this point Dawg is saying that he wants to disrupt society and entire economies simply because he wants the focus of interest groups to be bribing state legislatures for policy favors instead of Congress.

It's just fighting an abstract concept for the sake of fighting it. Such is what happens when you have too much free time on your hands.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The event itself doesn't but... http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...523_story.html

At Air Force, the shutdown impacts members of the Falcons’ support staff, classified as civil service employees. They would be ineligible to travel during the shutdown. According to a report in the Colorado Springs Gazette, Air Force Athletic Director Hans Mueh, assistant football coach John Rudzinksi and the school’s sports information department were furloughed Tuesday.

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Uh-huh. Read the rest of your link. During the Clinton-era shutdown they had the same furloughs.... and they still played their games. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Other than that, yeah. The Obomination Kenyan Socialist Pretender has played by the rules: two national elections and a Supreme Court challenge. The Repubs? Not so much.

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I think that's just a little bit disingenuous. Remember how they had to use the reconciliation gimmick to get the bill thru the Senate? Nothing illegal but it definitely took a lot of arm-twisting and gaming Senate procedures.

Similarly, this shutdown isn't breaking any rules either. Spending bills come from the House. What "rules" aren't they following? I would think that by your standard the Senate didn't play by the rules when they passed it, if the House isn't playing by the rules now. I think in both cases, the politicians are just playing the game...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Would you please, please, give me the longest possible version of why you think this is a good thing? The whole philosophical shebang, please. I want to try and understand.

...because by my estimation, a weaker federal government only helps big business, and that's not good. Consumer protection and environmental protection is too weak as it is, all around.

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Long story short, it is an excuse to shut down government. Despite what the GOP says, we want to shut down government. We believe that most of what the Federal government does is bloated, unnecessary and a cancer on individual rights. All of the things that we do like about the Federal Government are constantly held against us as a bargaining chip for why we need to compromise and allow another bloated program through. The ACA is law and it isn't worth fighting against anymore, but the fact that, although it is currently unworkable, there is still a law that says you will be penalized for not having something that you can't get is naturally irritating for many. This has an ounce of populist resonance, even though it will largely be rectified by tax time and most people will have access before they have to pay a fee. Anyone who can't afford health care won't have to pay the fee in any case because they end up getting money that they never put in. Net tax recipients will not be penalized for failing to buy something that they can't afford.

It is simply something that we are able to use against the Democrats. We've lost the popularity contest, are not slated to lose or gain many seats at the mid-term. Since we are already played in the media as the bad guy, let's just live up to it. We all know that spending needs to be reigned in to avoid higher taxes long term, so let's leverage the little that we have. The ACA mandate delay is a distraction. I'd be pissed if they even gave it to us because then we wouldn't have a reason to stay in shut down.

You do realize that you will be effectively getting less for your tax money if you get your credit rating lowered right?

Because more of your taxes will go to paying interest.

Effectively what the Tea Party has done is increased the tax without representation ratio as more of your taxes go overseas to pay interest.

What does a default have to do with the shutdown? Do you mean people will start to think that the US can't pay its bills and it's own people have lost confidence in it?

If you mean that we will get a downgrade because we can't pass a budget, I'm not sure that one has to do with the other. We are currently saving money by ceasing nonessential services. We won't get a credit downgrade for that. The risk to our credit rating will come from interest in default. The failure to repay our obligations. That has not yet been discussed. I would much rather spend this time hardballing for cuts to programs and have no intention of supporting a debt ceiling impact.

Well, it is a brilliant idea after all.

'The Federal govt does too many things mediocrely, and instead should do a few things excellently. To that end, we're going to smash at the economy until the Federal bureaucracy collapses along with it.

Afterwards, America rises from the ashes like a bald eagle and becomes GREAT and FREE again!

It's like we say, just give us a chance to destroy the national and international economic balance, and then we'll all decide who was right or wrong.

And if you don't, that just means you're a MINDLESS TYRANT.

WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM? THE FACT THAT WE EXIST ENTAILS THAT WE DESERVE TO BE GIVEN THE REIGNS AND LEVERS.'

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

You do realize that you will be effectively getting less for your tax money if you get your credit rating lowered right?

Because more of your taxes will go to paying interest.

Effectively what the Tea Party has done is increased the tax without representation ratio as more of your taxes go overseas to pay interest.

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NPR is reporting that S&P has no plans, as of yet, for a further reduction of the credit rating. On the other hand, they did suggest that returning to a AAA was unlikely in the near future was unlikely given the current silliness in Wolkenkuckucksheim-on-Potomac.*



*First read and loved that word in Cornelius Ryan's The Longest Day.

We have something that you need. We dont like you. You demand it. We have no reason to give it to you. Why is this so hard to understand? Find something we want, give it to us, and we will give you the thing that you want. Promise.

You guys just like to guilt us into doing things we don't want to do for nothing in return. When does anything actually work like that?

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face." / Pyhric Victory.

If you push to hard you will get a rebound that will erode the Tea Party and Republican Party.

I'm sure that one of the Republican Parties selling points is its fiscal and budgetary strength. This will be tarnished severely if they cause damage to the markets. In Aus in the early eighties we had a similar scenario and it essentially caused such a massive electoral backlash it meant the left held Federal power for a dozen years.

In other words you might motivate the non voters to get up and vote democrats for a decade.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

If you push to hard you will get a rebound that will erode the Tea Party and Republican Party.

I'm sure that one of the Republican Parties selling points is its fiscal and budgetary strength. This will be tarnished severely if they cause damage to the markets. In Aus in the early eighties we had a similar scenario and it essentially caused such a massive electoral backlash it meant the left held Federal power for a dozen years.

In other words you might motivate the non voters to get up and vote democrats for a decade.

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Being honest, that happening in America will be the biggest triumph the modern Republicans would ever accomplish. Eliminate themselves and their idiot ideas (such as 'no such thing as Rape', non-whites are inferior, 10 commandants added to the constitution, etc). They attract too much support from the 'Looney Fringe' pretty much turning them into the Father Jack of American politics.

Then the democrat party could collapse into two, establishing a new 'left and right' two-party system where it might have some real left-leaning policies which will benefit the common American and the choice for the same old 'right wing party but painted blue' option.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

We have something that you need. We dont like you. You demand it. We have no reason to give it to you.

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So you have no alternatives, no real policies to offer, just 'Let us set off the bomb or we'll set off the bomb.'

Who cares. To hell with the GOP.

The proscription is to eliminate government from our lives as much as possible while keeping what works, maybe. Have fun with your crappy status quo. Let's see where the Democrats take the country after they beat the GOP out of all parts of government. Maybe it will be good places.

I don't want money, I don't really care about the economy, I don't want a house. Go get them, tigers. They are all yours. I just want to break your stuff.

Terrorists!
Since they are threatening the International economy:
International Terrorists!
:creep:

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Let's see where the Democrats take the country after they beat the GOP out of all parts of government.

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Democratic politics is not a game that's meant to end in one-party rule.

Does this surprise you?

Why not? Everything that the GOP thinks is wrong, everything that the Democrats say is right. Just embrace it already. Barack is pretty great. He doesnt have to retire in 2016. Let's be the change that we want in term limits!


Let the curtains part, dissolve the GOP. This coalition has outlived it's usefullness. The crazy people won't go away, they will just register Democrat or independent and build a new coalition which the government can't cope with.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I just want to break your stuff.

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Okay, okay, it's pretty obvious that somebody needs a hug.

Everybody complains about the already existent one party state. Anti government extremist faction sure is another type of party, but you guys want nothing to do with it because you need the Federal government and all it claims to do for you at great expense.

Lemur, I dont need a hug, I just started a new job and I'm being sent to Europe for 10 days. I love my life. I just hate the government and want to see it fail. Don't you have a fat, loud neighbor that you just hate and wish would move? Does he ever speak on behalf of the neighborhood? That's how I feel about the Federal government.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

you guys [...] need the Federal government and all it claims to do for you at great expense.

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Yes, clearly, I could not possibly get through my day without all of that Federal, State, and County largesse I use. How very perceptive. Hmm, you know, there was another propaganda movement that depicted its opponents as sub-human parasites ...

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I just hate the government and want to see it fail.

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Spoken like someone who really, really needs a hug. And maybe a little lie-down.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Yes, clearly, I could not possibly get through my day without all of that Federal, State, and County largesse I use. How very perceptive. Hmm, you know, there was another propaganda movement that depicted its opponents as sub-human parasites ...


Spoken like someone who really, really needs a hug. And maybe a little lie-down.

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You missed my point. You treat the government like a protector rather than a parasite. I get it. I'm not part of the tea party, BTW, I just hate government. I've never gone to a rally, I've never parotted their lines. Dont take what I say as what the tea party thinks. I'm barely an American. I hold a passport and pay taxes because it is better than having my pay docked, but I couldn't care less about this country. I like quite a few things that we are about, guns, equal rights, individual sovereignty, rejection of authority, etc.but I am not your countryman. The patriotism of the teaparty is my least favorite thing about it. The US is just a bloated bureaucratic artifact. The idea is what is important, not the flag or the government. It is the rejection of the lives of others being imposed on you.

I'm just having fun, blowing off steam. I like to play sides for the underdog, but I don't care what happens.