Multicultural versus monocultural societies and countries

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Even in a nuclear family you can have different cultures.

Speech patterns, music preferences, food choices, religious beliefs. Diversity is no more a weakness then adding chrome to iron.

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I'm very fond of splitting people into all sorts of different groups in order to highlight differences, similarities and other interesting aspects of our society.

I don't disagree with an ethnic label in principle, but I find using the term ethnicity with regards to culture is too loosely defined, arbitrary and broad to produce any meaningful insights.

In short, there are better ways of grouping people than ethnicity. Personally, I'm very fond of the traits arising from different occupations within a social class...

I just wanted to note that I like how Viking made a new thread for this and now I do not have to argue him anymore because others do it so much better. And yes, I still think the idea makes little sense for most of the reasons given by HoreTore, Montmorency and others.
There is hardly a country with an actual monoculture and it's usually the attempt to create one that results in violence.

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Originally Posted by Husar

There is hardly a country with an actual monoculture

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North Korea might qualify, if you ignore the party elite.... A wonderful country for sure.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm very fond of splitting people into all sorts of different groups in order to highlight differences, similarities and other interesting aspects of our society.

I don't disagree with an ethnic label in principle, but I find using the term ethnicity with regards to culture is too loosely defined, arbitrary and broad to produce any meaningful insights.

In short, there are better ways of grouping people than ethnicity. Personally, I'm very fond of the traits arising from different occupations within a social class...

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AFAICS, post-colonialist criticism is closely related to Marxist criticism, in how they categorise people into groups, and study relations in terms of within group and without group. The difference being how they do the categorisation. But they're not unique in that, as there are other, probably less popular, forms of criticism, that work the same way. Ethno-based criticism, particularly from the perspective of a strong, established settlement, has been taboo in the west since WW2. Quite right too. The best thing we can do, when we see this, is to call it for what it is.

Personally, I think a neglected form of criticism is the study of the relationship between football culture, community and the individual. At least within the UK that I know, football is the closest there is to a national religion in practice, with organised schisms within an overall structure. And with Bosman, EU employment laws, and the sheer competition of the Premier and Champions Leagues, ethnic differences are practically ignored in the midst of a culture with different values than one based on how one looks or sounds.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Multiculturalism doesnt work, that's why the USA is such a backwater

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Its in the same boat as Canada and Australia. Abject failures the lot of them.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So, religion is culture, eh?

Then please, do explain how a culture(Norwegian) can be termed monocultural when the group contains to vastly different religious groups(atheist and christian)? If that's your definition of culture, Norway is a multicultural society way before you mix in any immigrants(and I do agree with this).

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It's culture, not a culture. Like language.

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And please, do explain how our racial(or ethnic, if you prefer) preferences are weaker than our religious preferences. Please include a mention of 16th century Germany in your explanation.

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Preferences for what?

I don't see much trouble with a multiethnic society in itself as long as there is no identity attached to the ethnicity (beyond obvious superficial markers like skin colour etc.).

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Further, with your reliance on Abkhazians, I have to wonder if you have any deeper definition than simple (reinforced) self-identification.

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Definition of what? Culture? Multiculturalism?

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And that's pretty much the definition of arbitrary, and I can't see why anyone should really care.

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I see a clear trend, involving highly different countries. Just look at some of the most prominent active/recently active armed conflicts in the world right now:

• South Sudan: largely Dinka vs Nuer [counted]
• Syria: Originally an uprising against a dictator, but ethnic differences may act as fuel here as well [not counted]
• Ukraine: would largely be impossible would without a split between Ukrainian and Russian identity present in the country [counted]
• Afghanistan: multi-ethnic country, but religious infighting and foreign troops seems to be the main cause of fighting [not counted]
• Iraq: the Shia-Sunni divide is central to the conflict [counted]
• Central African Republic: Christians vs Muslims [counted]
• Somalia: Religious infighting, but also other elements. [not counted]
• Nigeria: islamist insurgency, fighting against a secular constitution that can be seen as a compromise between Nigeria's massive Christian and Muslim populations. [counted]
• Mali: an islamist insurgency as well as a Tuareg insurgency (Tuaregs in the north vs other ethnicities in the south). [counted]

So, in this list 6 out of 9 armed conflicts are heavily rooted in multuculturalism and facets of multiculturalism. I don't see any purely rural vs urban conflicts among the recent armed conflicts.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Multiculturalism doesnt work, that's why the USA is such a backwater

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The US doesn't exactly have history of cultural tolerance and peace. Native Americans, slaves (came from local African culture(s)), Mormons..

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Originally Posted by Viking

The US doesn't exactly have history of cultural tolerance and peace. Native Americans, slaves (came from local African culture(s)), Mormons..

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LOL. "Let me point to incidents" What does this prove other than the normal civil strife that all countries go through?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

LOL. "Let me point to incidents" What does this prove other than the normal civil strife that all countries go through?

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Not thinking about incidents. As most/many nations used to do, minority cultures were oppressed. This has some places eradicated all of the original culture (did any cultural elements from West Africa survive the slavery in the US?), other places "taken the edge" of the local cultures through force, making them fit the majority culture better.

Or what?

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Originally Posted by Viking

The US doesn't exactly have history of cultural tolerance and peace. Native Americans, slaves (came from local African culture(s)), Mormons..

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history. "multicultural didn't work in the past." Thank you for the history lesson. Put some effort into it and you will also find current problems. But there are exceptions and there will be more. Thanks to Kadagar for providing http://republicofaustin.com/2011/03/...d-west-austin/
He thought he was pointing out segregation. Did he fail to realize he looked at a few square miles and saw several dozen ethnicities all peacefully living in very close proximity to each other? Thousands of people of each group?

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

history. "multicultural didn't work in the past." Thank you for the history lesson. Put some effort into it and you will also find current problems. But there are exceptions and there will be more. Thanks to Kadagar for providing http://republicofaustin.com/2011/03/...d-west-austin/
He thought he was pointing out segregation. Did he fail to realize he looked at a few square miles and saw several dozen ethnicities all peacefully living in very close proximity to each other? Thousands of people of each group?

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I thought I was pointing out segregation, because the data points to different ethnic groups clearly showing they do no want to be around the others. That's segregation, no?

The USA has been held up as a positive example here...

1. USA came to be what it is because of ethnic cleansing. Genocide, if you so will (the Indians).

2. It became a power factor much thanks to slavery.

3. It has huge racial conflicts and disputes even after all these years.

4. the different cultures within the USA still like to stay on their own, with their own.

5. USA is the country that brought us extreme capitalism... As it looks now this system is absolute rubbish and a candidate to "factors that brought on the second dark age"... But oh well... I guess I am just saying that we should wait to see how the US politics actually works itself out in this world, as it CLEARLY shows huge signs of failing as is.

Also, please remind the history US came from, and you will understand why it's stupid, not to say moronic, to bring it up as a positive example.

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

history. "multicultural didn't work in the past." Thank you for the history lesson. Put some effort into it and you will also find current problems. But there are exceptions and there will be more. Thanks to Kadagar for providing http://republicofaustin.com/2011/03/...d-west-austin/

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Per my previous post, the point was the legacy of history. The cultures that could have competed with the European American culture(s) were abrased and attempted abrased to the points were they would no longer be too different. The African culture(s) seems to have no traces left (I don't know about any active campaigns to eradicate it; probably not necessary), American Indians no longer live in tipis with a nomadic lifestyle, Mormons gave up on polygamy.

The more different the cultures within a multicultural society are, the more truly multicultural it is.

UK is a multicultural society as is Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

My mum is Welsh, my dad is a Kiwi of English & Swedish extraction. I was born in Fiji and raised in New Zealand which is essentially a Pakeha and Maori bicultural country. Like one in four Australians I was born overseas and my wife is from Taiwan. We are not unusual as either individuals or as a couple.

Australia is a very successful multicultural society in its modern form. It's dark past is mainly due to monocultural activities. That is also true for the US. Most multicultural countries had a past history of being a monocultural state which was the vogue thing for colonies to do. With time they have transmuted and became more tolerant and open and more successful and wealthy.

So yes the dark past of slavery, starvation (buffalo decimation) and germ warfare are certainly evil. But that's what you get in a monocultural driven society.

Monoculture is boring. In a world where morality is simply manners and right and wrong are subjective and weak constructs, interesting is king.

Give me guns and I'll take a much higher crime rate for delicious food and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

UK is a multicultural society as is Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

My mum is Welsh, my dad is a Kiwi of English & Swedish extraction. I was born in Fiji and raised in New Zealand which is essentially a Pakeha and Maori bicultural country. Like one in four Australians I was born overseas and my wife is from Taiwan. We are not unusual as either individuals or as a couple.

Australia is a very successful multicultural society in its modern form. It's dark past is mainly due to monocultural activities. That is also true for the US. Most multicultural countries had a past history of being a monocultural state which was the vogue thing for colonies to do. With time they have transmuted and became more tolerant and open and more successful and wealthy.

So yes the dark past of slavery, starvation (buffalo decimation) and germ warfare are certainly evil. But that's what you get in a monocultural driven society.

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As Australia is clearly on its way to becoming the next Somalia*, your point is moot.


*a "monocultural" society...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

As Australia is clearly on its way to becoming the next Somalia*, your point is moot.


*a "monocultural" society...

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Only if you enter Australia by boat...

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Only if you enter Australia by boat...

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Why not just burn all the harbours and be done with it?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

UK is a multicultural society as is Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

My mum is Welsh, my dad is a Kiwi of English & Swedish extraction. I was born in Fiji and raised in New Zealand which is essentially a Pakeha and Maori bicultural country. Like one in four Australians I was born overseas and my wife is from Taiwan. We are not unusual as either individuals or as a couple.

Australia is a very successful multicultural society in its modern form. It's dark past is mainly due to monocultural activities. That is also true for the US. Most multicultural countries had a past history of being a monocultural state which was the vogue thing for colonies to do. With time they have transmuted and became more tolerant and open and more successful and wealthy.

So yes the dark past of slavery, starvation (buffalo decimation) and germ warfare are certainly evil. But that's what you get in a monocultural driven society.

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The UK is an advanced multicultural society, parts are no longer multicultural but monocultural, sharia-zones where the police won't come unless they are heavily armed. That is going to happen to the other countries you mention as well. I have family in Perth and Sydney and it has the same problems as any European country that has been enriched. Islam. Disclaimer, it is hardly a problem in the Neds despite a large muslim population.

You need to stop reading the daily mail frags.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The UK is an advanced multicultural society, parts are no longer multicultural but monocultural, sharia-zones where the police won't come unless they are heavily armed.

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Bovine excrement - our Police have no such problem and are very rarely "heavily armed" I have no idea where you even picked this up from - even the Daily Mail would never try to claim this...

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

You need to stop reading the daily mail frags.

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I don't read Daily Mail. These neighbourhoods are all over Europe, the worst in Southern France and Belgium. Good luch tryin to live with tolerance and respect where culture has been enriched. There are only demands.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

My mum is Welsh, my dad is a Kiwi of English & Swedish extraction. I was born in Fiji and raised in New Zealand which is essentially a Pakeha and Maori bicultural country. Like one in four Australians I was born overseas and my wife is from Taiwan. We are not unusual as either individuals or as a couple.

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I am sure truly multicultural families can have some serious trouble if the cultures don't mix well, but at least those troubles, should there be any, are likely to stay within the family - so not anyone else's business.

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So yes the dark past of slavery, starvation (buffalo decimation) and germ warfare are certainly evil. But that's what you get in a monocultural driven society.

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It's what you get in countries that do not respect individual integrity. If a state respects its inhabitants, it also has (up to a certain point) to respect their culture.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Give me guns and I'll take a much higher crime rate for delicious food and interesting.

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Just because you import cultural elements into your own culture doesn't mean you live in a multicultural society. Jeez.

'monoculture' might be a bad word choice, since so many seem to associate it with cultural conservatism, but that's the only term I can think of as an antonym to 'multiculture'.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

Bovine excrement - our Police have no such problem and are very rarely "heavily armed" I have no idea where you even picked this up from - even the Daily Mail would never try to claim this...

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Frag would probably think the Thames Walk was a journey through wartorn territory, starting from the east end of the most multicultural city in the world, and continuing unbroken through the centre, and through to the west. When I did it, armed only with a backpack carrying food and water, the only discomfort I encountered was weary feet. Sometimes I wonder if the London Frag and others describe is related to the London I've known all my life.

Big lol at that. Have an awesome time celebrating multiculturalism in Brussels or Marseillei, and yes Londen, you know the one you know. Where islam has settled itself things change, really fast. That is also especially true for the Vikings.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Just because you import cultural elements into your own culture doesn't mean you live in a multicultural society. Jeez.

'monoculture' might be a bad word choice, since so many seem to associate it with cultural conservatism, but that's the only term I can think of as an antonym to 'multiculture'.

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I live in a suburb of NYC. I went to Stonybrook. Where did you go? Valhalla? What do you know about multikulti?

White	44.0%
—Non-Hispanic	33.3%
Black or African American	25.5%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race)	28.6%
Asian	12.7%

What do you think the demographics of Oslo look like? A friggin white power parade. Go lick a bowl

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I live in a suburb of NYC. I went to Stonybrook. Where did you go? Valhalla? What do you know about multikulti?

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Did you live the Central African Republic? Did you live in Iraq? Did you live in Yugoslavia? What do you know about multiculturalism?

NYC (and the U.S. in general) does have some serious murder rates to answer for:

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This year, New York City is on pace to see 335 murders if the trend for the first 10 months (279 murders) continues.

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London, a city of 8.3 million people (the same size as New York City), 113 people were murdered that year. Even so, the Brits viewed it as a serious crisis. And last year a total of 99 people were murdered in London, the lowest figure since 1970.

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Whatever the causes are. London also seems to be fairly multicultural; but that doesn't mean the histories and the dynamics are the same in the two cities, a more in-depth comparison would be necessary in order to make an argument in that department.

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White	44.0%
—Non-Hispanic	33.3%
Black or African American	25.5%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race)	28.6%
Asian	12.7%

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That table doesn't say anything about culture, only ethnicity.

I'm just kidding, I just wanted to be a jerk. But NYC is absolutely multicultural. Have you ever been?

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Have you ever been?

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Have I ever been running naked through the Sahara? No.


Been what exactly?

TO NYC, KNUCKLEFART

Nope.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I'm just kidding, I just wanted to be a jerk. But NYC is absolutely multicultural. Have you ever been?

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That's different, can't be compared, the USA is multicultural by nature. It's not an ideoligy but a general concensus. In Europe multiculturalism is pretty much a religion, it's forced upon us. I wouldn't call NYC multicultural but multi-ethnic instead, there is consensus over being an American. It isn't all that straightforward though, watched the match against Spain at the local coffeeshop where just about everybody is Maroccan or Polish and they cheer for the Dutch team just as much as we do. Europe is complicated.