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Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Mr. President, what is this man's four children, American citizens all, doing in the Israeli capital? If they're going to grow up thinking of Israel as home, do they really count as American citizens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmuley Boteach
Oh dont even get me started about people who claim to be upstanding US citizens yet continually declare Israel as the homeland. Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Well, before we get TOO heavy on them ALL Americans do that. Many Irish-Americans actively supported the republican terrorists during the Troubles, including sitting politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
But do they actively encourage people to move back to "the homeland"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, they just went and killed British soldiers, or sent money and guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Then they'd complain at another time that Britain was not supportive enough of America
Fair enough, did not know that. Either way, still makes me want to hit my head against the wall.
It is stupid regardless of who does it.
When you swear the oath to become an American citizen, you renounce all ties to your previous homeland AFAIK but I guess people just talk the talk as usual and then stop caring about what they just swore.
I can kind of understand why Jews cling onto the idea of a homeland in Israel. The reality is that many Jews in America have anti-Semites for political representatives, of both the left and right-wing variety.
No matter how American you feel hooah, I think there is still a sense that Jews are part of some Hollywood-Communist anti-America conspiracy. It might not be a mainstream idea but it is there and it is tolerated within mainstream parties as the case of Legvold shows.
I don't doubt it, I wasn't meaning what I said as an attack upon America. You would probably be right in saying Jews have more to worry about here in Europe than they do in America. Some even feel the need for a Jewish homeland in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
It all just goes to show that Jews to this day aren't entirely welcome in the Western world. With that in mind I can understand why they would identify with Israel as somewhere where they feel they could belong and be free from persecution.
Americans who complain about the Jewish identification with Israel should stop electing anti-Semites to power if they want Jews to feel part of American society.
It doesn't explain why they think they have a claim on America though, even after moving abroad and declaring themselves for their new country. I think Sean Connery is a tit for getting involved with Scottish nationalism, despite being such a dyed in the wool Scot that he lives anywhere but.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Also, the argument you've put forward for Jews applies several times more to Muslims, in terms of feeling unwelcome. But to me British Muslims, same as British Jews, are British above all else, same as me, unless they declare otherwise.
I always thought it ironic that they cast Connery as the Spaniard and Lambert as the Scotsman.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
It is interesting how support for Israel is actually higher outside the monolith of Jewish American opinion:
http://happynicetimepeople.com/mad-t...tell-jews-jew/
So apparently a cease-fire was called, but Hamas kept sending rockets, so Israel started bombing again.
:wall:
One of the problems, of course, is that Hamas is not a discrete entity but a coalition. It does not speak with one voice or act according to one set of directions.
This is a standard Israeli trick. They attack, kill hundreds, offer a "ceasefire" which has some totally unacceptable conditions - then make a big fuss when this ceasefire is rejected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Hundreds of Palestinians dead after collective punishment attacks from state of the art military. Zero Israeli dead after random crude rocket attacks from fringe group. This is not an even fight.
Pffffft, having as many civilians as possible killed is what Hamas is after. Cynical but true. Hamas has a better weapon, the media, and they play it like a violin, and everybody falls for it.
I thought Egypt offered the cease-fire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
And apparently one Israeli was killed by mortar fire yesterday.
Did they, or did they offer a way out of escalation. That was rejected. Hamas needs dead Palestinians more than a junk needs crack. In the meantime normal Palestinians who never harmed anybody get bombed because Hamas is more into pr then anything else. They are sacrificing their own, kinda screwed. Stop firing that shit and you won't be hit back, and continue herding your wives and loving goats, or was it the other way around. Stop firing rockets. You can say 'what's it to me', but antisemitism is what islamist colonists brought here and we just got rid of it, or should I call them immigrants, sounds better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
While simple enough on one level, "don't shoot at me and I won't shoot at you," the position you advance fails to consider the living conditions in Gaza. Lots of people crowded together, haphazard infrastructure, huge un and under employment, disproportionate numbers of youths to elders....violence is no less a certainty there than in Chicago's south side. Then you add in Hamas, which provides a focus for that frustration-generated anger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
As to the most recent Israeli attack, Israel is taking the easy way out by lumping all of Hamas into one label. Hamas is a kaleidoscope, and the shifting fragments do NOT always line up on one goal or set of behaviors. Hamas -- the larger leadership elements -- may very well have agreed to and kept this latest cease fire (hard to know). But some fragment repudiated it, acted, and Israel struck back at Hamas.
Is it ethical to punish all of Hamas and Gaza for what may have been the unsanctioned actions of a comparative few? One argument says yes -- that if you claim leadership you must enforce your authority upon your membership and if you cannot you will be held responsible. The other position holds that efforts should only be focused upon the guilty few. The second route is much harder, requiring time and intelligence resources and some degree of cooperation.
Cognitively, it is much simpler to just lob rockets at known targets....much easier than doing the meticulous detective work required for specificity. Besides, the rockets have a shelf life and you eventually have to throw them away if you don't use them.
Of course it's not ethical to punish the whole of Gaza, but is that happening? The Palestinians are the victim of their own government and whoever they are that are really controlling them. I can't blame Israel for being the way they are, I am glad I am not an Israeli who has to have an opinion on it, and I am extra-glad I don't live in Gaza. But who should you really blame. Hamas or Israel? I wouldn't know, but I am absolutily rooting for those that aren't out to destroy everything, guess who I root more for.
Reason why it is such a mess is because after the initial partition, Egypt and Jordan annexed Gaza and the Westbank and alienated the citizens by not granting citizenship. These then declared war on Israel, and got stomped with Israel taking those areas and Sinai in the peace-deal. Israel since voluntary gave up these lands and Sinai to the respective parties involved.
A solution would be to build settlements in Egypt and Jordan and allow the Palestinians to emigrate to them and be granted respective citizenship. Israel then annexes the Gaza-strip and West-Bank, integrating the remaining citizens. This would be a death-blow to the Palestinian state, but if this is done correctly, it might produce the most ideal solution for everyone involved, even if they are not happy with it.
You dare to advocate a one-state solution? Kudos to you sir, though you will catch flack for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I have not heard any better answer put forward though....and two-state solutions are either pipe dreams or mild embellishments on exactly the conditions we have now.
Unfortunately, that is the pragmatic answer to the two-states upon one piece of land issue which has highest chance of success, it isn't the ideal answer. It is also flawed due to the very same reasons the Oslo accords came about which the 'two-state' solution was meant to be the answer. Perhaps Palestine to be an autonomous region governed under Israel? There are no 'right' answers and it parallels the Balkan situation a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Alternatives such as 'Israel and Palestine' merger are also possible, but the biggest issue is the Palestinian Refugees which will cause Israel to veto that solution instantly. There is a big diaspora outside of Israel/Palestine and these are ill-treated by Egypt and Jordan. Israel isn't the only 'bad guy' which people like to comment on. It isn't perfect but there is more that everyone else can do to make it better, especially Egypt and Jordan. Lebanon and Syria being rather excused at the moment due to their own internal conflicts.
Israel's plan is clear enough. They won't allow any viable Palestinian state. They disrupt, destroy and starve the economy, abuse the people and confiscate the land. They won't lay out any possible route that any sane Palestinian would accept.
Attachment 13634
Three kids playing on the beach blown up by Israeli jets. How can anyone sane, sanction that? (I said sane Fragony).
They were hiding a rocket cache underneath their sandcastles, duh.
Sorry, that picture is inaccurate. Palestine pretty much didn't exist in 1948-1967Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordani..._the_West_Bank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupat...Strip_by_Egypt
Also, the picture actually misses out the Six-Day war too, where Israel become this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...erritories.svg
Sinai was returned in 1979
Oslo Accords occured in 1993
The annex of the West Bank doubled Jordan's population, a large majority which isn't accepted by the state and is part of a refugee crisis. Egypt were equally greedy with Gaza. When Israeli's gave up these possessions, it was on the promise of peace, they traded those lands for security.
A lot of solutions being pushed force Israel to lose security and the constant rocket attacks don't do any favours, such as demanding the return of the Palestinian diaspora which are 3-4 generations of Palestinians who have never lived in Palestine (Awkward, considering Israel's concept..)
Israel is not perfect, but the dangerous thing to do is flip to a position where Israel is the only 'bad guy'. The whole area is pretty much responsible for the absolute mess, including old British and French policies dating from the end of the Ottoman Empire and the Balfour Declaration.
@Seamus Fermanagh, funnily enough, just reminded myself. Last few years, there has been a 'Three State' solution since Hamas won the election, and it was overthrown in the West-Bank, leading to Palestine split in two, before the recent reunification government which Israel has opposed (due to Hamas)
Or observant, look at the upper right corner of the pic, at the holes in the sand and the stones. How many times can you count the exact same objects. Pic is photoshopped. That boy is probably laying in the rubbles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
edit:lol on the left, from halfway, odd sand they got there on these beaches, two types.
Reuters Reuters Reuters how could you miss all that.
Bullshit story.
Yes everyone is responsible. It's all equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Israelis and Palestinians both have passports?
Both have functioning economies?
Both have state of the art weapon technology?
Both can freely move around their own nation?
Both have killed over 200 people in the last week?
Both confiscate each others land?
Both have a vote?
The reality is that one apartheid state is doing everything to expel or exterminate a population who they fear, hate and see as inferior.
The acid test is how Israelis treat Israeli Arabs. Badly, is the answer.
You really are a ville and delusional man. Welcome to my ignore list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony