20 miles south from me.......Rothrham.

I think UKIP could be a one-election wonder. Unfortunately that might be enough for them to destroy the UK forever. Wee Sturgeon of the SNP is already going on about Scotland getting a veto on leaving Europe, and combined with the ultra-Thatcherite policies of UKIP, this may be enough for the SNP to get a huge majority at the next Scottish Parliament, and have their "unilateral declaration of independence".

As for the rest of the UK, if UKIP do make big gains in Labour strongholds, I can't see them keeping them. A party which demonizes the poorest in society and wants to take away what little they have, would go down like a ton of bricks in a working-class area. People would soon become aware of the fact that they are really just ultra-Tories.

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A party which demonizes the poorest in society and wants to take away what little they have

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Like little girls virginity aged 11 and 12. Vote Labour!

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Considering none of them are gaining steam...

Britain is tired of the status quo and is looking for someone to break the cycle of mediocraty that is the labour-conservative 2 party system. Problem is that in our search a lot of us have latched on to a party that is one step from the BNP. Worse, like the SNP they have no plan beyond cut ties with a neighbour we have more need of than we wish to admit. When those bonds are broken UKIP will show themselves as utterly clueless as to how to actually run a country and by then britain will just be another spain style hasbeen.

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Sorry, but the BNP is a racist party whereas UKIP isn't - they may be a myopic, reactive "NIMBY" view of the world but they are not trying to recreate the Master Race. Unless Labour are one step from the Communist Party and the Tories one step from the Republicans.

Oh, UKIP should reform the EU. A novel idea!!! Something that has been talked about every year... and somehow the resources they consume increases year on year. No one else appears prepared to ask if it is fit for purpose.

We do have need for ties with Europe amongst others. Requesting to join NAFTA would be better since that is an economic joining without the levels of waste which the EU excels - there are definitely benefits but they are outweighed by the cons as it currently stands.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That smiling idiot has more sense in the nails of his toes than the entire EU combined. Youtube is full of video's where he predicted, well just about everything.

Now the EU wants more than 2 billion euro extra from the UK because ehhhhh they want it. Totally understandable, if they get less money they don't get more of it. They want more from us as well, they decided that our economy is bigger because of the drugtrade and prostition, 600 million please.

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Well, you didn't pay your dues, deal with it.

As for paying for other countries, by that logic we should have begged the USSR to stay and keep East Germany and all the other eastern countries. Do you think the German reunification was a horribly stupid idea because West Germany had to pay so much? Should we have kept the east as a seperate country and just traded with them a bit?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, you didn't pay your dues, deal with it.

As for paying for other countries, by that logic we should have begged the USSR to stay and keep East Germany and all the other eastern countries. Do you think the German reunification was a horribly stupid idea because West Germany had to pay so much? Should we have kept the east as a seperate country and just traded with them a bit?

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Whatever Germany did is Germany's call. The basic question is why isn't germany so keen to rebuild Greece's economy, or Spain's or Libya's? They are all in need and I'm sure if you gave enough billions they'd be better off.

Germans were prepared to help other Germans as they broadly felt kinship with them. They are not prepared to help those who they don't.

East Germany also has integrated and acts as part of Germany and does not now it has taken loads of resources want to cede, join the EU and get money indrectly.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Sorry, but the BNP is a racist party whereas UKIP isn't - they may be a myopic, reactive "NIMBY" view of the world but they are not trying to recreate the Master Race. Unless Labour are one step from the Communist Party and the Tories one step from the Republicans.

Oh, UKIP should reform the EU. A novel idea!!! Something that has been talked about every year... and somehow the resources they consume increases year on year. No one else appears prepared to ask if it is fit for purpose.

We do have need for ties with Europe amongst others. Requesting to join NAFTA would be better since that is an economic joining without the levels of waste which the EU excels - there are definitely benefits but they are outweighed by the cons as it currently stands.

~:smoking:

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Bah. Hiding thier lack of organisation and feasability under the easiest scapegoat and riding the wave of the dissaffected and disillusioned to put dubious people in power, hyperbole aside the parallels disturb me. All three main parties insist the eu is not worth leaving and the politicians saying otherwise have the stink of American neoconservative objectivism. Those that arent out and out nazis anyway.

Maybe we do need to leave but if doing so means electing ukip as it is I would rather we nuke ourselves and get it over with. Britain is worth a quick death at least.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Bah. Hiding thier lack of organisation and feasability under the easiest scapegoat and riding the wave of the dissaffected and disillusioned to put dubious people in power, hyperbole aside the parallels disturb me. All three main parties insist the eu is not worth leaving and the politicians saying otherwise have the stink of American neoconservative objectivism. Those that arent out and out nazis anyway.

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Cynical much?

Though political parties long on sloganeering and short on ideas is hardly a new phenomenon in the democratic process.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Cynical much?

Though political parties long on sloganeering and short on ideas is hardly a new phenomenon in the democratic process.

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If the only party campaigning against splitting your union was the tea party would you be optimistic?

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

If the only party campaigning against splitting your union was the tea party wouod you be optimistic?

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I agree with the bulk of the TEA party's objectives and STILL don't think they have their caca-in-ligne.

Some of them really think that if they can take over Congress for a couple of terms that they can undo all of the government accretion of the last 3/4's of a century during one Presidential administration -- zero concept of the tenacity of bureaucratized organizational forms coupled to our political structure.

Sadly, I share more than a bit of your cynicism regarding things political....

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I agree with the bulk of the TEA party's objectives and STILL don't think they have their caca-in-ligne.

Some of them really think that if they can take over Congress for a couple of terms that they can undo all of the government accretion of the last 3/4's of a century during one Presidential administration -- zero concept of the tenacity of bureaucratized organizational forms coupled to our political structure.

Sadly, I share more than a bit of your cynicism regarding things political....

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At least you have a clear "not freaking nuts option". Over here figuring out which party will screw up the least is a lifetime's endeavour.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Whatever Germany did is Germany's call. The basic question is why isn't germany so keen to rebuild Greece's economy, or Spain's or Libya's? They are all in need and I'm sure if you gave enough billions they'd be better off.

Germans were prepared to help other Germans as they broadly felt kinship with them. They are not prepared to help those who they don't.

East Germany also has integrated and acts as part of Germany and does not now it has taken loads of resources want to cede, join the EU and get money indrectly.

~:smoking:

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West Germany still pays for East Germany, only recently have some politicians brought up the idea that bankrupt western cities paying for well-developed eastern ones may not be a great idea anymore.

Germans are not keen to pay for Greece if Greece continues to be corrupt and wastes most of the money. If there were some visible results of rebuilding, I think these measures could get more support here.

As for Britain, I found this funny graphic from the gruniad: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-file...%20body%20link

it shows Britain as the second biggest payer, but if one includes the 3.6 billion it lists that other countries apparently just gift Britain for staying, it would barely rank 4th with 1.8bn, barely above the Netherlands. Though I suppose the 2bn that Britain stole from the EU recently are not included and would only result in 3.8bn then, still 4th place after Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate

France and Germany are the biggest contributors to the EU, the ones who pay for all the poor countries. And we whine considerably less about it than people from the UK do, even though we may not always be perfectly happy either. And we don't get an outdated rebate that was meant for a much poorer Britain, instead we pay extra for that rebate. This whole British anti-EU thing just shows what a bunch of spoiled children its members are. :pleased:

The system was never very good. And since now information is much more widely available we are all much more aware what is going on - back in the day (prior 1900) the whole system was a toffs boys' club where the rich went to play. They were not paid as it was practically a hobby. Ultrurustic? I doubt it, but between all the dubious exercises they owned they had enough cash.

Then it became a career and the ambition of many was to line one's own pockets - and now we get what they do in exquisite detail: all the promises broken we are informed about, all the scandals, all the discussions are described as in-fighting, any compromise is a "climb down" or "U-turn". Rather than driving up the debate it has been increasingly infantilised to fit in with the twitter quote and the TV soundbite.

The system was worse in the UK years ago and tragically it is better here than elsewhere. But that is not the message we ever get.

Lib Dems were the protest vote party and now people look for another one and UKIP has simple messages that with a wave of their magic wand everything will be better. Voters don't want to understand, they want their problems "solved". And in democracy where everyone has an equal say pandering to the transient wishes of the mass wins elections in ways that long term strategic planning don't.

It'd be great to have a UK Ms Merkel who shifts her position based on evidence, is generally cautious in her declamations and seemingly has done a relatively good job.

I fear this is because Germans generally tend to be more sensible collaborative individuals than the adverarial ones in the UK.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, you didn't pay your dues, deal with it.

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They changed the calculations, decided our economy is bigger then it really is. They even don't shy away of adding revenues from prostitution and drugs. It's a robbery, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Husar

West Germany still pays for East Germany, only recently have some politicians brought up the idea that bankrupt western cities paying for well-developed eastern ones may not be a great idea anymore.

Germans are not keen to pay for Greece if Greece continues to be corrupt and wastes most of the money. If there were some visible results of rebuilding, I think these measures could get more support here.

it shows Britain as the second biggest payer, but if one includes the 3.6 billion it lists that other countries apparently just gift Britain for staying, it would barely rank 4th with 1.8bn, barely above the Netherlands. Though I suppose the 2bn that Britain stole from the EU recently are not included and would only result in 3.8bn then, still 4th place after Italy.

France and Germany are the biggest contributors to the EU, the ones who pay for all the poor countries. And we whine considerably less about it than people from the UK do, even though we may not always be perfectly happy either. And we don't get an outdated rebate that was meant for a much poorer Britain, instead we pay extra for that rebate. This whole British anti-EU thing just shows what a bunch of spoiled children its members are. :pleased:

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If not Greece, then a massive handout to Iceland. The point is that the money went to East Germany for decades and not to any other country that requires support which is not corrupt.

Is that net contribution or gross? The CAP is practically a system to support France's archaic farming practices and France liked the EU to give it more of a voice on the world stage (and generally anti the USA/UK axis); the Eastern Europeans have certainly messed this up. Germany was in there to promise to play nice with the others / cheaper to rule Europe this way.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Like little girls virginity aged 11 and 12. Vote Labour!

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Child abuse is also linked to poverty and all the problems that come with it - alcoholism, drug abuse, family breakdown etc. The sort of problems that put a lot of kids in the care homes that allowed the Asian gangs to target them - and the sort of problems that will all increase if UKIP get their way.

I'm not one of those people who gets outraged by UKIP's stance on immigration, its the other stuff I have a problem with.

Speaking of UKIP, searching for their name on amazon gives us clothing announcing we were #1.
Hoodie-gate

You are not going to have politicians speak and enact sensible policy unless you show a willingness to act just as outrageous as them. Protest parties are always a joke until they get a good foundation of voters, then all their "reactionary/radical reforms" are picked up by the big tents as "common sense" policies.

Some here have pointed out a strong UKIP showing could ruin the British system while others have pointed out that the system has been garbage from the beginning. So what's the problem?

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

You are not going to have politicians speak and enact sensible policy unless you show a willingness to act just as outrageous as them. Protest parties are always a joke until they get a good foundation of voters, then all their "reactionary/radical reforms" are picked up by the big tents as "common sense" policies.

Some here have pointed out a strong UKIP showing could ruin the British system while others have pointed out that the system has been garbage from the beginning. So what's the problem?

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...this is a joke right? "Well you could get aids but you already have malaria, so what's the problem?"

You really don't understand how voting works. You don't change how parties act by just getting madder when you vote for them. Your two parties are a joke, and unless you vote for someone else they have no incentive to act in any other way but the status quo.

If you honestly think that a single election that brings about a handful of elected UKIP members will bring down 60+ years of social programs, institutions etc... then your system really was fragile and useless to begin with.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

You really don't understand how voting works. You don't change how parties act by just getting madder when you vote for them. Your two parties are a joke, and unless you vote for someone else they have no incentive to act in any other way but the status quo.

If you honestly think that a single election that brings about a handful of elected UKIP members will bring down 60+ years of social programs, institutions etc... then your system really was fragile and useless to begin with.

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....And you're acting like the UKIP is the only british party besides the tories and labour.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They changed the calculations, decided our economy is bigger then it really is. They even don't shy away of adding revenues from prostitution and drugs. It's a robbery, simple as that.

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http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-601_en.htm

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2. Does this year's technical adjustment take into account the new method to calculate member states' GDP (ESA 2010)?

No. This new method to calculate member states' GDP will have no impact on their GNI contribution to the EU budget until the new own resources decision comes into effect, which is probably 2016.

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What kind of fringe blogs have you been reading again?

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3. Why does this year's technical adjustment see such big increases of contributions to the EU budget for some member states?

This year's adjustment includes GNI re-calculation dating back to 2002 for most member states and to 1995 for one, as there were a number of unresolved issues that had accumulated over the last years. The decision to resolve these historic issues now results from a joint effort of member states in cooperation with Eurostat. With all these issues now cleared, future such corrections will again be rather minor, as they were in recent years.

Some member states have consistently reported too low values for their GNI over the last years, this obviously explain the size of some adjustments upwards.

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In other words, some countries tried to get around payments by reporting false numbers/stole money.
Stop getting your information from the conspiracy fringe.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

If not Greece, then a massive handout to Iceland. The point is that the money went to East Germany for decades and not to any other country that requires support which is not corrupt.

Is that net contribution or gross? The CAP is practically a system to support France's archaic farming practices and France liked the EU to give it more of a voice on the world stage (and generally anti the USA/UK axis); the Eastern Europeans have certainly messed this up. Germany was in there to promise to play nice with the others / cheaper to rule Europe this way.

~:smoking:

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Yes, just keep blaming France, which is only the second biggest net contributor, and let's not speak about Britain singlehandedly blocking banking legislation to suit it's archaic, bubble-creating, corrupt financial sector, that is almost the only sector it has left in almost the only worthwhile city it has left. Stop whining about other countries and start looking at the problems your own country creates. The whole accusation that Germany just wants more power is based on nothing than silly historical grievances that you otherwise claim to have gotten over long ago.

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If you honestly think that a single election that brings about a handful of elected UKIP members will bring down 60+ years of social programs, institutions etc... then your system really was fragile and useless to begin with.

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Bring down? No. Damage enough to push the scots over the edge? Depressingly likely.

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Originally Posted by Husar

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-601_en.htm



What kind of fringe blogs have you been reading again?

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Only 94 questions in the parlement. More reliable than europa.eu

First this...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ckade-him.html

Is because of this....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-28971058

I find it incomprehensible that these leftist would support violent child rapists but as Louis the Fat used to say, racism trumps sexism every time. There you have it.

I used to think that leftist were just gullible misguided fools, now I'm not so sure. This was done deliberately. Oh and for another flavour from these "progressives" they want schools to teach five year olds about homosexual sex.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-bullying.html

Truly evil people.

Update.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...itics-06022015

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

I used to think that leftist were just gullible misguided fools, now I'm not so sure. This was done deliberately. Oh and for another flavour from these "progressives" they want schools to teach five year olds about homosexual sex.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-bullying.html

Truly evil people.

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So, teaching biology, including reproduction/sex education is considered bad? The moral outrage!

Instead of mysteriously coming into contact into the world of sex through red-tube at the age of ten, warping young impressionable minds, an actual good solution to the issue, by actually educating our children so they grow up with a healthy attitude is a big sin. The actual proposals are actually tailored to be age-appropriate, and they cover a number of issues, should as telling kids that how that dodgy uncle asking you to stroke his snake is very bad and you should tell grow-ups straight away.

Next you will tell the tale of how sex is bad and wrong, how it should only occur for the reproduction of children and even then, you should weep in your pillow in shame at performing such outrageous acts.

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So, teaching biology, including reproduction/sex education is considered bad? The moral outrage!

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So your happy to teach children about buggery at aged five years old? I can only assume that you don't have any. At five years old (and older) I thought my dick was for pissing through. Children should be left to be children. Older kids, approaching or at puberty is ok. This is just repulsive on so many levels.

BTW I was 11 years old when I was taught about the reproductive cycle, which is/was about right.

What is it about children that leftists find so appealing? P.I.E. and Harriot Harman and Jack Dromey springs to mind at the Civil Liberties Union back in the 70s.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...g-9162728.html

Sick bastards.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

So your happy to teach children about buggery at aged five years old? I can only assume that you don't have any. At five years old (and older) I thought my dick was for pissing through. Children should be left to be children. Older kids, approaching or at puberty is ok. This is just repulsive on so many levels.

BTW I was 11 years old when I was taught about the reproductive cycle, which is/was about right.

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That is a strawman, there is nothing about teaching buggery to five-year olds. i can pretty much tell you from limited knowledge what the lessons would be, and it would be pretty much saying that it is possible for two men or women to be in love with other in age-appropriate manner, which is like "Jimmy has two Dad's who love each other like how Susan has a Mum and Dad. Jane's also have two Mum's too". Very simplistic, but hey, it is for 5 year olds like you said.

I think it would actually be an issue if it was loading up a clip from a porn site and go "This is what Jimmy's dads are up to at night" then queue clip of two men making passionate love, there might actually some objections to the manner it is being taught, which I can safely say, is definitely not what is being broached.

I don't think Moddycuddling children is the best way, it has always failed. I was taught at a small age about the world, for example, when I saw someone in a wheelchair at a young age, my mother told me about disabilities and how they can impact someone's life and introduced me to the person to say "hello", the person was warm and appreciative that I was being taught the right way. I have grown up never mocking people for being disabled. On the other hand, I saw others who basically 'shielded' children away from disabled people and sneered at the person in the wheelchair, and then they grow up mocking and making fun of disabled people for being abnormal monstrous creatures.

Ignorance isn't bliss. Only way of overcoming bigotry and discrimination is knowledge and experience.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

That is a strawman, there is nothing about teaching buggery to five-year olds. i can pretty much tell you from limited knowledge what the lessons would be, and it would be pretty much saying that it is possible for two men or women to be in love with other in age-appropriate manner, which is like "Jimmy has two Dad's who love each other like how Susan has a Mum and Dad. Jane's also have two Mum's too". Very simplistic, but hey, it is for 5 year olds like you said.

I think it would actually be an issue if it was loading up a clip from a porn site and go "This is what Jimmy's dads are up to at night" then queue clip of two men making passionate love, there might actually some objections to the manner it is being taught, which I can safely say, is definitely not what is being broached.

I don't think Moddycuddling children is the best way, it has always failed. I was taught at a small age about the world, for example, when I saw someone in a wheelchair at a young age, my mother told me about disabilities and how they can impact someone's life and introduced me to the person to say "hello", the person was warm and appreciative that I was being taught the right way. I have grown up never mocking people for being disabled. On the other hand, I saw others who basically 'shielded' children away from disabled people and sneered at the person in the wheelchair, and then they grow up mocking and making fun of disabled people for being abnormal monstrous creatures.

Ignorance isn't bliss. Only way of overcoming bigotry and discrimination is knowledge and experience.

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Except that telling the kids Jimmy has two Dads is also mollycoddling. because it implies there isn't a woman out there who gave birth to Jimmy. Actually, Jimmy has a mum and a dad but Jimmy's dad has a boyfriend/male partner.


Also, your example about disabled people is flawed because real ignorance is not encountering disabled, but your example has the parents setting a bad example and the children following it.

How long till we are hearing stories like below in primary school?

Girl raped at school after sex education class

How long till we hear stories like below from mosques?

Boy raped at church after sunday school service