If Islam is the "Religion of Peace"....

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Answer is simple, I don't think islam belongs here. My attitude doesn't matter as it's their own attitude that makes them unwelcome in western Europe. If you reject a secular society and think your religion is more important than your host country, what the fuck are doing here, just go to a desert of choice where you are among those who feel the same way. Simple as that. Reject and get rejected.

About the himself muslim mayor of Rotterdan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivnQGPFnJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0oVQ45blY Short interview

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It's got nothing to do with a particular religion per se, but facets of it. I equally loathe homophobes, white supremacists, black supremacists, creationists... in fact I myself am extremely intolerant of intolerance - a frequently used quip by comedians.

Amongst the friends I have, religion is not an issue. Christians are not telling me I'll go to hell as I was not baptised and that my gay friends are deviants; Jewish friends manage entire weeks without telling me that they're the chosen people and therefore better than everyone else; I have eaten beef without being attacked by a Hindu and pork without a disgusted speech from a Muslim. All have refrained from informing me that all the others are wrong and I in particular am going to hell as an Agnostic.

When discrimination starts to impact on the, for want of a better phrase, pleasant society then there should be tools for the extremists of whatever stripe to be removed and not to spread their cancer further.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yeah, I just don't get why you say it's fine with you that they stay and then explain that they have no claim on the benefit of staying here.

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Why wouldn't they. My philosophy, never hurt what doesn't hurt you, they can stay it's all fine by me I got no problem with them. They will never have a problem with me as long as long as that is a courtisy I get back. Am I really asking all that much?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why wouldn't they. My philosophy, never hurt what doesn't hurt you, they can stay it's all fine by me I got no problem with them. They will never have a problem with me as long as long as that is a courtisy I get back. Am I really asking all that much?

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I was just wondering why you said it's fine with you that they stay here because that contradicts everything else you say.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

The thing of dragging out Christianity has to do with answering the question if it's possible to create a decent secular state in a Muslim country. The answer is yes, even if you probably aren't feeling that right now. Would purging Islam a make a major cultural difference in the direction you want it? No.
Are there severe issues in the Islamic world right now? Yes. Does some immigrants carry that with them? Yes.

As a fellow Swede, do agree that there's issues in the Swedish society today?

Clearly there's something rotten with Sweden. It's not like every other country, but ruled by fanatical feminazis and should be fought in each and every manner that we possibly can, for the betterment of mankind. There's something deeply wrong with this country.

Sweden is a totally lunatic country, and people actually believing in this might as well be hunted for sport if we ever want a society where, say, women are treated as the different gender that they obviously are, and we have a free and open society where godless atheists without morals doesn't rule.

Of course, I mean it's really enough to wipe out Sweden from the map and that all Swedes denounce Sweden and its wicked ways, no need to kill them and I would really prefer it this way. Civilized as I am.

Did reading that make you feel more or less proud to be a Swede? If someone really wants you to change your attitude towards Sweden, should they talk and write like that? In particular since strong feelings in one place tends to leak through the mask that you wear in another place.

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Reading that made me feel neither less or more proud to be a Swede. Why did you think it would bother me?

Feminazis is indeed a HUGE damn problem, and they take over media more and more... And it IS completely fugged up, what they are doing to the country.

Hunting them for sport seems harsh... But maybe I would enjoy it with one or two of the most lunatic ones... Not to kill, of course. But just generally hunt them around with dogs and whips and stuff... Sure it would be inhumane, but hey, we used to shoot people for high treason.... So this would still be less of a punishment, no?

I dont get how you couple it with atheism... But if that's the way you see it :shrug:

Why the heck would you as an ethnic swede want to wipe out Sweden? Wouldnt it be better if you stood your ground and FOUGHT for the principles you hold in esteem?

Your point falls short as I am really not troubled by sharp opinions.

When I say Islam is ****ed up I mean exactly that. And yes, a world without Islam would be a better world, as I read it.

I am not saying I want to wipe it out though... Let them sit in their damn deserts and treat their women like, "you know what". But let's keep them there. I don't want them around me or my family and friends.

And I sure as HELL would prefer not to have to teach them in school, because of the extra workload that I could easily be without, thankyouverymuch.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Why the heck would you as an ethnic swede want to wipe out Sweden? Wouldnt it be better if you stood your ground and FOUGHT for the principles you hold in esteem?

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Reversing the tables. I'm not standing for that text as my own opinions. But I did trigger my point from you. If you want Islam to change, you can't beat it with a stick. All you'll do is pissing them off and pride/scare the ones that was only nominally Muslim.

And Fragony. If you're cursed by your blood to never belong to the country you were born in and have lived for your entire life, why bother trying to belong?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Reversing the tables. I'm not standing for that text as my own opinions. But I did trigger my point from you. If you want Islam to change, you can't beat it with a stick. All you'll do is pissing them off and pride/scare the ones that was only nominally Muslim.

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I don't want Islam to change.

I don't want Islam to stay the same either.

I don't give a **** about Islam one way or the other. They can do whatever they want in their ****ed cultures.




I just don't want them around ME. Can you get this point?

We had a nation that was held in esteem pretty much worldwide... And in just a generation we have absolutely murdered it, thanks to people like you.

That's my problem, nothing else. What people do elsewhere is their problem. My main concern is the society around me... And in the society around me I would much prefer not to have to deal with Islam.

Husar wrote this:

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And Kadagar has claimed in other threads that he thinks Islam is completely unique in being a violent religion IIRC.

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This is a serious accusation. So you wont get away with posting until you answered my reply.

I think you are absolutely delusional here, and I still would like some sort of "I'm sorry" if your accusation proves wrong. You are a tech admin, should be easy for you to show if I ever said anything like what you accuse me for?



I can be very sharp in my arguments at times, admittedly. But the accusation you want to smear on me in this case is just rude, and goes against everything I believe in.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

This is a serious accusation.

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No, it's not. Maybe it wasn't perfectly worded either, but here is a hint: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iirc

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

So you wont get away with posting until you answered my reply.

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What? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Husar

No, it's not. Maybe it wasn't perfectly worded either, but here is a hint: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iirc



What? :dizzy2:

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I know what IIRC means.

But you smeared an opinion on me that I most def don't stand for. If you fugg up like that, a simple "excuse me, I was obviously wrong, my bad" would be in order.

It's my character you attacked... And that is open enough for attacks without people starting to make up their own reasons.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

We can judge them on their actions that are based on what the islam dictates. There is no need to judge muslims who do nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything deeply wrong with their religion.

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I see I'm a bit late for the party, but yes, islam is special. The day it stops being special is the day when a self-proclaimed Crusader state starts enslaving muslims and burning people. Or a Jewish/Hindu/Whatever state does that. Until that day islam is in its very own special niche of depravity. Truly a plague for the 21st century human civilization.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I was just wondering why you said it's fine with you that they stay here because that contradicts everything else you say.

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There is no contradiction, I have zero problems with the cute headscarved girl at my local supermarket. I only have a problem with those who submit to islam. You can't help being born muslim but submitting to islam is a concious choice. It's a concious choice to follow a vile ideoligy that shouldn't exist here.

The wesf is confused, you can't respect islam and respect human rights at the same time, it's either this or that.

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Originally Posted by Husar

... even Jesus said you're either with me or against me, there is no middle ground...

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pez_79eWSWw
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :sneaky:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Answer is simple, I don't think islam belongs here. My attitude doesn't matter as it's their own attitude that makes them unwelcome in western Europe. If you reject a secular society and think your religion is more important than your host country, what the fuck are doing here, just go to a desert of choice where you are among those who feel the same way. Simple as that. Reject and get rejected.

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You gave your opinion not about islamic "guests", but ANY foreigners coming to live in the Netherlands. So I assume that, say, Germans, Surenamese, Brits or the French don't belong there, in your view. Am I right?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Sweden is a totally lunatic country

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:laugh4: You don't know what life in Ukraine is if you forward such a claim.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Can't have the benefits of society and reject our society it at the same time.

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I saw a video in which a bearded separatists standing at a checkpoint with a grenade-launcher over his shoulder gave an angry philippic on how Ukraine stopped paying pension to him.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

And I sure as HELL would prefer not to have to teach them in school, because of the extra workload that I could easily be without, thankyouverymuch.

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Give them only F's at your class, that will hopefully make them leave for where they belong.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I know what IIRC means.

But you smeared an opinion on me that I most def don't stand for. If you fugg up like that, a simple "excuse me, I was obviously wrong, my bad" would be in order.

It's my character you attacked... And that is open enough for attacks without people starting to make up their own reasons.

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Cry me a river...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053628211

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Originally Posted by Kadagar

Is it just me, or does muslims seem to be extremely over-represented when it comes to terrorism?

Would it be so unthinkable to argue that there is something rotten in the religion itself?

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Trying to find the post I encountered countless posts where you belittle me and others for our in your opinion really bad arguments and now you're whining that I may have misrepresented your opinion. So deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

There is no contradiction, I have zero problems with the cute headscarved girl at my local supermarket. I only have a problem with those who submit to islam. You can't help being born muslim but submitting to islam is a concious choice. It's a concious choice to follow a vile ideoligy that shouldn't exist here.

The wesf is confused, you can't respect islam and respect human rights at the same time, it's either this or that.

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The entire part of the conversation was absolutely not about cute girls but evil terrorists, therefore the contradiction. You said yourself that when you say Islam it does not refer to the cute girls but to the ones who follow what you deem the true islam and therefore the terrorists. So unless you change your definition of islam every week to confuse us even more, you contradicted yourself there.

Read what you want read Hussie. I make a destinction. You don't that's fine you are in great company, maybe we can find a cure for apoligising islam one day. But please excuse me for not blaming muslims for being muslims, my sometimes girlfriend from Teheran who is muslim probably wants a word with you but alas, please forgive that I find human rights more important than respect for the islam. By all means, keep respecting islam, I hope you agree with me before it is too late.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Read what you want read Hussie. I make a destinction. You don't that's fine you are in great company, maybe we can find a cure for apoligising islam one day. But please excuse me for not blaming muslims for being muslims, my sometimes girlfriend from Teheran who is muslim probably wants a word with you but alas, please forgive that I find human rights more important than respect for the islam. By all means, keep respecting islam, I hope you agree with me before it is too late.

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I will try to make this very clear for you by bolding the most relevant parts of how this began:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Answer is simple, I don't think islam belongs here. My attitude doesn't matter as it's their own attitude that makes them unwelcome in western Europe. If you reject a secular society and think your religion is more important than your host country, what the fuck are doing here, just go to a desert of choice where you are among those who feel the same way. Simple as that. Reject and get rejected.

About the himself muslim mayor of Rotterdan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivnQGPFnJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0oVQ45blY Short interview

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Originally Posted by Husar

I agree, to a degree, but they do apparently stay anyway, nothing we can do. Apparently they have a mind of their own, crazy stuff.

And that guy in the first video seems funny, apparently something weird happened to his glasses that he didn't bother to fix but he still advertises media appearance tutoring in the description of the video. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Of course they are going to stay and that's fine with me. But nobody is forcing them to stay they can leave at any time they want if they want to, staying here is a choice , don't take a dumb on my lawn and expect me to like it. We aren't asking all that much from them imho, and that's a favour I would like to have returned. If you want to live in a society of your own you have no claim on the benefits of living in a western society as you distanciate yourself from it. Quid pro quo. Can't have the benefits of society and reject our society it at the same time. If I come to your house and I don't like what you did with the place I don't ask you to refurnish it because I don't like it.

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Husar, That still doesnt answer where you got:

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And Kadagar has claimed in other threads that he thinks Islam is completely unique in being a violent religion IIRC.

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... from.

Yes I have said they are extremely over represented when it comes to terrorism... You know, because they are.

I have however through my years on these boards always been utterly clear about what I think of religions at large... Islam isn't the only religion I have criticised hard.

You just can't read. Islam isn't the same thing as being a muslim, said it over and over again but it somehow never gets though. I can't really take you serious anymore because you simply can't understand the distinction apparently. Maybe a muslim orgar can explain it as I am done with trying.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yes I have said they are extremely over represented when it comes to terrorism... You know, because they are.

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That's exactly what I said, "completely unique in being a violent religion" was meant as "more violent than other religions" which is close enough to "extremely over represented when it comes to terrorism", apart from that I already said that: "Maybe it wasn't perfectly worded either [...]". You're making a huge deal over a small semantic issue if there even is one, but at least you're only derailing your own thread with it...

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You just can't read. Islam isn't the same thing as being a muslim, said it over and over again but it somehow never gets though. I can't really take you serious anymore because you simply can't understand the distinction apparently. Maybe a muslim orgar can explain it as I am done with trying.

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I have been aware of that for a while now as I have explained in previous answers to you and by acknowledging the things you said, as quoted in my last reply to you. I get the impression that you do not read my posts properly and then accuse me of not getting you. I have explained that I get you several times now, I'm not going to repeat it. Go back and read what I said! You're the one who creates unique distinctions that most people don't use in the same way and even when I try to agree with you on your very own linguistic terms you constantly accuse me of not getting it, so what part of "I agree" do you not get???

If I understand you correctly Frag (and I'm trying) you're saying that Muslims are generally okay, in spite of their religion, which you despise, because they don't follow it all that closely anyways?

Sort of the Islamic version of anti-Catholic bigotry? The average Catholic is fine, they just belong to the church of ultimate evil? Lucky for them they don't really believe much of it?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If I understand you correctly Frag (and I'm trying) you're saying that Muslims are generally okay, in spite of their religion, which you despise, because they don't follow it all that closely anyways?

Sort of the Islamic version of anti-Catholic bigotry? The average Catholic is fine, they just belong to the church of ultimate evil? Lucky for them they don't really believe much of it?

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He's saying that Islam is a violent religion that wants you to do exactly what the terrorists and ISIS do.
Therefore, according to Fragony, "Muslims" who do not want to kill or change us do not follow Islam since Islam demands people to be violent and chop other peoples' heads off.
I have no idea what Fragony calls the religion of non-violent muslims, maybe muslimism, but he sees them as two different religions for some reason. For Fragony there are no different interpretations of Islam, the only correct one is the one of the terrorists and therefore they are the only followers of Islam and Islam is an evil religion that he rejects. In other words:

Fragony's Islam = everyone else's islamist extremists
Fragony's muslims = everyone else's moderate muslims

I've acknowledged that a while ago even though I may have used the terms in the more common meaning since then and therefore get accused of "not getting it" because I do not speak Fragoninglish all the time.

I have no idea what Fragony thinks that the left loves muslim extremists and wants to import terrorists, that sort of "distinction" really escapes me because I have never seen someone advocate that.

I think most of the discussion is about Fragony wanting everybody to adopt the terms he uses and when they don't, he accuses them of being stupid while when you get to the core of it, both Fragony and most everyone else, myself included, do not want islamist terrorists to come here and change our democracies into islamic states.

To translate that into Fragoninglish:

When you get to the core of it, both Fragony and most everyone else, myself included, do not want The Islam to come here and change our democracies into islamic states.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If I understand you correctly Frag (and I'm trying) you're saying that Muslims are generally okay, in spite of their religion, which you despise, because they don't follow it all that closely anyways?

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Absolutily correct.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

You gave your opinion not about islamic "guests", but ANY foreigners coming to live in the Netherlands.

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What's so wrong about that, do I suddenly become Ukrainian if I move to Ukraine or am I a Dutchman in Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That's exactly what I said, "completely unique in being a violent religion" was meant as "more violent than other religions" which is close enough to "extremely over represented when it comes to terrorism", apart from that I already said that: "Maybe it wasn't perfectly worded either [...]". You're making a huge deal over a small semantic issue if there even is one, but at least you're only derailing your own thread with it...

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Semantics is VERY important in this case.

Christianity has done equal horrors or worse, historically speaking. Inquisition anyone?

My point HERE though is that Islam is still a horrible religion even after we had the enlightenment, democratic revolution, and stuff.

THAT is the problem.

If it is called the International House of Pancakes, how come I can't eat the walls?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What's so wrong about that, do I suddenly become Ukrainian if I move to Ukraine or am I a Dutchman in Ukraine.

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Some people think that after one has been living in the country long enough to learn its language, traditions and ways, has his permanent home and job there, the citizenship of the country and, most importantly, associates himself with it, he is considered a native there. Still more are his offspring, either by a native or by his compatriot. You are evidently of a different mind. For you ethnicity and origin overrule.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My point HERE though is that Islam is still a horrible religion even after we had the enlightenment, democratic revolution, and stuff.

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Religions, as is the way with all more or less abstract notions - language, for example, - can't be assessed against the "good-bad" scale. Every religion (mostly through its antiquity) contains many controversial and (for the modern world) inacceptable tenets. The problem is in people who may follow the obsolete tenets literally or loosely. And if we talk of close following, then all religions are "horrible". If people are sensible enough to realize that the world is not what it was a couple of millenia ago, the religion is doing fine.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Some people think that after one has been living in the country long enough to learn its language, traditions and ways, has his permanent home and job there, the citizenship of the country and, most importantly, associates himself with it, he is considered a native there. Still more are his offspring, either by a native or by his compatriot. You are evidently of a different mind. For you ethnicity and origin overrule.

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Not really. It's not my fault some groups are inward. The most inward are probably the Chinese, but that doesn't matter as they never cause any trouble and never make any demands.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

If it is called the International House of Pancakes, how come I can't eat the walls?

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...and the bustards serve only domestic pancakes. I've even heard rumors that the French toast isn't.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I've even heard rumors that the French toast isn't.

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Oh, come on!! Next thing you will be saying that French fries are neither French, nor fries.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not really. It's not my fault some groups are inward. The most inward are probably the Chinese, but that doesn't matter as they never cause any trouble and never make any demands.

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Some of it also may be the length of time spent there. I imagine you would consider most white South Africans to be South African as opposed to just being stranded Dutchmen.