Kataphraktoi

YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.

Yo Galestrum want me to do the write up for the mod, the README of all READMES.

Man I cant wait to use the tagmatas against a sea of heathens.

I am starting arrange all my modded existing units, they should be available for download soon, I got work at uni so I don;t have that luxury. I will put of me new buildings mod, they can be added after the release of the mod, no need to budren the current mod.

Kudos Galestrum. Keep up the good work.

Heraclius - u have msn?
Elwe - u have msn?

Hey guys, as i said earlier im gonna be very busy this week, i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week, so ill have no time for this, but after these are completed i should be able to have this done and available for testing soon.

Just wanted to let you know in case i dont have time to post this week. take care guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 31 2003,10:26)]YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.

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Sure no problem
here is the latest update.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ](kataphraktoi @ Mar. 26 2003,07:17)
Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

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Was this intuition or a guess.

You should install it before
making such statments really.
It does not encourage others to
try and based on your request
I can only assume you have not
tried it.So you can't honestly say
it's an installation hell if
you never installed it.

Gees they even get their retaliation in first these days
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

So install it first and then criticize it.
Like eveyone else http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Mar. 31 2003,18:33)]i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week,

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Gee I hope they don't send you to prison http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

He only wanted to make a mod.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

lol I am not the bad guy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Lord Krazy don;t take it personally, I wasn't criticising the mod for itself but rather the prospect of 69 units, it was a matter of quantitive considerations rather than the integrity of your mod.

Understand me or what?

If you took it seriously then you are mistaken for taking it as such, it was jest rather than out of any spite or cupidity towards your unit mod.

Me take things serious, are you serious? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I just don't like people being funnier than me OK

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

So did you try it?
Can you use it, or part of it?
Seen as you don't want the gun guys.

A new prod has been provided by
Lord Kasskop which will be added
Tomorrow.

regards,

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

sorry kat, I don't have MSN.

Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

Ok u r funny.

Hmm LK what do you think of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry from Shogun, do you think its better than the Golden Horde heavy Cav???

I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???
If you have wdone it what how does the Mongol Heavy Cav play out? good bad???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 02 2003,22:54)]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif More suckers than I tought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

What's wrong with you people get a life http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???

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No sorry.


LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit

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It seems to be back on line again.
I hope I have enough this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH

i CHECKED thru the unit mods and found all kinds of errors old and new, seems I didn;t update the files when i completed the mod for MTW

This week and next I will be busy fixing this up and releasing it as complete packagae next to LORD KRAZY's most sublime unit mod pack.

Sorry all ye fellas.

Hows the it going Galestrum with the mod, is Byzantium ready to kick some emirates?

Welcome to the realities of modding this
element of mtw. The fact you see the errors
means you know what you are doing.
The errors are all part of putting a mod like this
togeather.It's not a fault it's a human condition. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Been there, done that , doing it again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif


LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Yeah I had to reinstall MTW and cleaned out the trash files.
I hope to reinstall in the future again hehe

I tried the Ghazi Cavalry mod this week in a Turkish, very very nice indeed.....their greatest asset is the first charge into enemy ranks, melee not their best, their speed however is another great asset.

I used the Ghazi Cavalry to sweep behind enemy lines and take out annoying archers as well as enemy heavy cavalry and infantry. Good for charging behind elite units.

Takes few casualties despite their low armour, poor defence and poor melee, cheap to train. Excellent morale though meaning they will give a good account of themselves under a low ranking general.

Will try out Magyar Cavalry soon

what are they armed with?

These Ghazis are armed with a spear and a shield but their fanaticsm is their most important weapon, they take quite a beating and can stand their ground against heavier opponents. Should I make them faster???

A whole army of these can beat thw Golden Horde I haven't done that yet cos my frontiers are all active hotspots of combat against the Almohads and Germans.

I am thinking of leaving out the Arab Corsairs from the mod, the GHAZI cavalry is meant to be that corsair unit.

I am scrapping the Patriarch unit and leaving the Monk assassin.

Kataphractoi and Co, this mod sounds really great, keep it up

I was just thinking, if you do plan to include the Arabic corsair unit, why not make it region specific, namely Crete and Sicily, but it can only be built by Islamic civilisations who occupy those territories.

Crete and Sicily were both conquered by the Muslims in the 9th century.

Sicily was taken by the Aghlabids of North Africa when the Caliph sent an expedition to aid a rebelling Byzantine officer in 827, led by Asad Ibn al-Furat.

Crete was conquered by a gang of freebooters from al-Andalus, led by Abu Hafs around the same period, and soon made the Aegean a dangerous region for Byzantine raiders (Though a Byzantine army wiped out a substantial force of Cretan Arabs when they landed in the Thracesian theme in 841 or 842).

Cheers

Hi there Kataphraktoi,

I myself have started to mod MTW and the first lot I modded were the Byzantines

I downloaded the Klib and Skutatoi units from the orgs downloads. Not sure if they were yours.

After just a glance I found both units overpowered by far. so I changed them.

Klib for now are Kata with +1 Melee +1 Def.

Skutatoi are 5/1/2/3 with proper spears (hence 5/2/4/3 + shields) when holding formation. I gave them 3 Javelins as well. for 350 points for a unit of 60 they are expensive but good unit. they are of course disicplined with 2 morale.

I also changed the Byz. Cav charge stat to 4 (considering 6) since they were supposed to have a lance as well.

My brother tested this starting late period on Hard level and won convincingly. Klib's helped him alot as did skutatoi.

Now here is my problem....

I'm trying to Mod the Byzantines to be as realistic, historical and balanced as possible. I've done alot of internet research which after many hours in not even as informative as a basic search in the ORG.

Basically I am in a total state of confusion as to how the core byzantine army was composed POST Manzikert. I wanted to gauge the possibilities of retaining an effective native army if the Byzantines reconqered regions such as Anatolia.

questions as of yet unsolved are those such as...were Skutatoi or equivalents used in any significant numbers post Manzikert? What where the restrictions? what of Kavallarioi (i.e Byz Cav) or Kata's (I've read descriptions of them being mace wielding).

After the Varangians who guarded the Emperor? was there an elite NATIVE footman unit at all towards the end of the Byzantine empire (i.e late period?)

There are so many questions I have about the Byzantine military just prior to and more importantly...after Manzikert. I'm not interested in mercenaries. I'm talking proper Imperial troops.

Anyway here are my Idea's.

Skutatoi/Kontaratoi- as mentioned above 5/1/2/3 morale 2, spears, 2 Jav- 60.

Produced in Anatolia ONLY. Requires SPEARMAKER2, ARMOURER1, ORTHODOX CHURCH.

This represents the supposed fact that Anatolia was the major recruiting ground for native troops in the empire. I know that in the Late period it is rebel and decsolate so the byzantines would have to re-establish the infrustracture and occupy the place for sometime (by sheer fact of having to build all these buildings&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif for it to be ruly re-integrated into the empire.

Byz Cav- Change Charge from 2....to perhaps 4-6. Represents the fact they had lances. Not sure where to restrict building or whether to add requirements.

Kataphraktoi- almost the same...but with MACES. AP but charge of only 4.

Was thinking of early, high late like other royal units. Early as above with maybe 4 def, 6 arm, then mid 5 -7 then late with 4 attack. Up speed alittle but not as much as other knights.

Add menavlion Skutatoi/Kontaratoi much like Militia Sgt but Disciplined and +1 Melee and Defence vs. Cav. Same restrictions as standard Skutatoi/Kontaratoi but repalce Spearmaker with SWORDMAKER2.

Aside from the idea's I have little else. Trepizondi Cavalry much like jinettes would be cool as would Trep. archers with composite bows.

anyway must go now, but will post again. till then please reply on your thoughts and any help you can offer

Thanks Kata and everyone else

Mike

Kurnous, they were my Klib and Skut mods.

Klibs overpowered?

not when they cost 1300 florins a year, take 2 years to train and can only be trained in Nicaea, they require:
A master armourer
A master horse breeder
A royal palace

sure they match the later western knights but you have to remember what the Klibanophoris are: they are elite tagmatic cavalry who pound for pound are much more expensive than the western knights and quite possibly better. In the MTW hand book the Kataphraktoi was the heaviest cavalry known, since the Klibanophori was in all essential character a super - Kataphraktoi imagine how much more heavily armoured they were.
I realise the immense power that comes with the Klibanophori but I also made sure it had its weaknesses as well such as for instance its slowness, they are also vulnerable to arrows in a given situation, I have reduced their unit size to 30. Plus they suck in desert warfare, ive had alan mercenary cavalry crush and rout a whole unit of klibanophoroi.

I think u installed the first version of the Klibanophori and hence it was overpowered with no justification, the latest version however makes sure that its power is justified by historical and practical function with several balances.

Klibs carried a kontos and a mace, clearly they were expected to be troop crushers and melee specialists

Klibs were the actually the only Byzantine cavalry to have mounts with complete armour, Kataphraktois with horses with frontal armour or no armour.

Since then I have toned down the klibs power taking into consideration its increased power under 8 star byzantine generals woohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo and remember it is not invincible even stinky light cavalry can destroy them.

They are the most expensive unit in the game and also a handicap to the economy, it is at the expense of a bigger army that I keep a smaller one with elite units.

U want to know bout the Byzantine army after manizkert?

Native troops after Manizkert was relatively small, demoralised and of poor quality, mercenaries were the majority of the army.

Turkish soldiers made a considerable proportion of the armt as light cavalry, while heavy cavalry thru pronoia allagion or hiring norman or frankish cavalry. There was a trend in unarmoured infantry because the money for armour was simply not there.

Elite troops after the Varangians consisted of foreign troops for showcase and ceremonial purposes, although there is evidence Vardariot Turkish Christians and Cretan archers were hired as these "elite" bodyguards.

Cumans and Pechenegs were also hired in considerable numbers, the latter more so after the battle iof Levunium.

Byzantine light cavalry was the TRAPEZITOI

Keep it simple because the Byzantine army had no space for anything fancy:

BYZANTINE COMPOSITION:
Turkish light cavalry
Western Heavy Cavalry
Unarmoured infantry
Trapezitoi light cavalry with javelins
Varangian Guard (Varangian Guards were abolished in 1204)
Pechenegs



Just remember since Byzantium survived after Manizkert it can be assumed that it could recover its original strength as it stabilised itself.

The Klibanophori disappeared after Manizkert........

unit update

I took errors out of the pecheneghorsearcher mod

It works now, these pecheneghorsearchers are actually the upper end of the pecheneg strata meaning they are the noble pecheneg chiefs who in all likeliness would don mail/lamellar armour and carry a bow plus a sword.

It is a medium cavalry something akin to byzantine cavalry.......hoooooooooray.

these fellas can only be made in Danubian, Southern Russia regions.

hungarians, russians, novgorod, byzantines.........

wat do u guys rekon?

oh yeah one more thing I have klibanophoriarchers made already I don;t know whether to include this in or not

Klibanophori archers made up 1/3 of the a Klibanophori unit.

Galestrum?

NEWS JUST IN

I have just completed and made an immaculate no errors new unit of vicious Magyar cavalry wooohooooooo

Magyar come armed with a lance and a bow

while slower than the Pecheneghorsearchers they pack a deadlier punch with an irresistible charge.

they are going to be hungarian faction's unit until the high period, from then on the royal knights will be the premeir faction leader's unit.

yo galestrum I couldn;t get the Slav infantry working, might need a bit more time on this one, I'm not happy with unit itself as a whole.

I mooted the Arab Corsair, as I mentioned before the Ghazi cavalry perfectly fills that role and should be a prominent component of any Arab Emirate army.

What other units did I say I was gonna make?

The monk unit has got the thumbs up

I mooted the byzantine saboteur and the byzantine patriarch unit, the monk is enough as a byzantine agent unit, preaching and killing is good enough.

Ghazi Cavalry
Khwarazmian Cavalry upgrade
Kataphraktoi upgrade
Magyar Cavalry
Pecheneghorsearcher
Monk
Serbian Brigands
Croatian Brigands

these mods are zipped into a compressed file, they are error free and should work fine

wait for the link galestrum, theres plenty more add ons to be added to the zipped file.

finally these damn mods are getting updated woohooo

Any thoughts on new buildings for the Byzantine, no particular function but make some money, not much money though because the important thing is the glory of the empire and the morale bonus.

I have in mind:
Nea Church built by Basil I
Great Lavra on Mt Athos built by Nicephorus Phocas

I played around with giving Constantinople a fortress, royal palace, bowyer, horse breeder, etc, the basic structures, the Klibanophori takes too damn long to train with all the requisite buildings required, it should not take more than 95 yrs to build the required buildings.
But these were settings for the Alexius Comnenus mod.

Did u add any buildings for thw Byzantines iin the startpos txt file for early period??????????

TAGMATA rules...


Some reports on test runs:
2 pecheneghorsearcher units demolished 1 Klibanophori unit, first they wore down the heavy cavalry with arrows then charged them from front and back and crushed them.
Klibanophori is the best cavalry around for the Byzantines and it was destroyed by Turks...noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Magyar cavalry excellent for flanking and harassing tactics. Versatile and at a pinch can be used as a heavy cavalry without heavy armour though medium cavalry is what it really is.....

Klibanophori with tweaked stats, made slightly weaker than the first version, I made them a bit faster but still way slower than other heavy cavalry units. Powerful but not that powerful. Still can;t believe the pecheneg smacked the Klibs silly.

Kataphraktoi was made faster since it no longer is the heaviest cavalry going around.


BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S

seems like you did a great job. Why do you always get to the good posts first? I was practically drooling when I read Kournos's post and then you answered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Hey there Kataphraktoi and others,

firstly about your klib unit. it was 8/7/10/8 or something like that with armour piercing right?

biggest thing I disagree with is mixing an AP weapon with an absolutely huge charge. Knights got a huge charge bonus from lances. Look at Knights Templar and Gothic Knight's with hand weapons or mace. Charge bonus is only 4.

Also I disagree with any unit getting over 6 attack or over 5 if Cavalry, not the mention a cavalry unit having more defence and/or similar armour to Lancers or gothic knights. Byzantine's never had anything like those suits of armour im sure and if so only in tiny amounts.

Ok my klib rant over.

Now about Kataphraktoi the unit. In your mod/eyes are they Byz Cav. or do you have thre sets of cav.....Byz Cav, Kata's and klib. its just not so clear in my eyes thats all.

Anyway I must go. Please do post up your new links soon. all your previous ones are totally broken and have been for a few weeks.

cya's all and hope your modding turns out well.

Mike

The new Klibanophori has stats of 8/7/7/8/8

The Klibanophori has always had a devastating charge, thats why they were heavily armoured and armed, they also carried a mace which was in all practical terms an armour piercing weapon, I am only reflecting what the KLibanophori troopers had as their battle equipment.
The military treatises mention this especially amongst elite troops as well.

Khwarazmian Cavalry has a charge bonus of 6 compared to Goth knights how does that work????

Byzantines did not I agreee have the similar armour of Goth knights but remember the Byzantines did form their own kind of special troopers with distinct armour equipment, Klibanophori troopers numbered 500 at their peak as Tagmatic shock troopers, if they were any smaller yu might as well pack them off home to Anatolia. So there needed to be a reasonable number.

Lets have a look at the equipment of the Klibanophori:

Mail Corselet over whatever clothing the Klibanophori wears underneath.

Over the top of this corselet is a Lamellar Klibanion, stretching to the knees and to the elbows. Lamellar proved to be strong and flexible.

Vambraces and Greaves are worn with a Metal overshoe, any parts of the body showing is covered by additional mail

Epilorikon of padded coat 3/4 inches thick over the Klibanion from kness to elbows

Helmet of iron with 2-3 layers of thick mail covering all but eyes

mail reinforced with plate gauntlets

Horses are fully covered mounts.

Is this the description of a lightweight cavalry?

Sicne they were heavier even than the Western Knights, the Kinetic power combined with the weight behind it converting into potential energy would surely justify a powerful charge.

If at any time they should be powerful it should be the early period but after that they have to compete with the later western knights.

SO u are right the Byz never had the same kind of armour but they instead developed their own heavy cavalry shock trooper, Ian Heath who studied the Byzantine military described the Klibanophori as "super-heavy cavalry"

As u can see with the new stats the Klibanophori is similar to the later western knights but more disciplined and certainly better armed because of their versatility being trained under Nicephorus Phocas.

The first klibanophoris were definitely overpowered, after a while I did more research and tuned it down according to the historical sources available.

In mod eyes I tended to keep the cavalry as they are.

yeah I will fix the broken ones later.
the Ghazi cavalry is a real treat.

Galestrum, the darn slav infantry works now after I changed the body type

100 men in one unit, 100 javelins flying at the enemy but they're pretty weak in melee, thats bout right.

Hello again,

One question which wasn't answered....in peoples mod's like Galestrum's Alexius Comnenus mode and Kata's WIP mod how many forms of distinct Cavalry do you guys have? I'm alittle confused. It seems that in Kata's mod have two types. that is originals of byz cav now = Kata, and originals Kata now = Klib unit. Is this correct?

And to make things alittle more murky...which units did the Emperor's and major nobility fight in? Bow and lance cav, or super heavy cav? or for that matter Varangian guard?

about Klib's again. That charge you have given them is greater in pure shock value then any charge in the game,by far better then ANY knight Not only that but it is AP.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-byzantine and I'm not have a go at you. That attack value is just so unbalanced. Are you going to tell me that this unit has almost twice the attack value and shock value as a bunch of huge bad ass germanic knights?

You normal attack value for klib's is -1 from a gothic knights charge

about their armour. I take your point about their heaviness, sure. I agree they were VERY well protected. However 'high' period knights (1300's) were very well protected as well. They had padded leather all underneath, followed by high quality chain-mail the length of their bodies, then basic plate (half plate in game terms)with a breast plate and basic plate such as greaves and vambraces. Roughly the equivalent of your description right? Only substantial difference is cavalry barding. Euro-cav at that time used forms of quilted barding whilst I would consider a klib as armoured barding.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this exactly. Suffice to say I can't see any stat worth going over a few sacred design rules there seem to have been put in place in the game, or in fact in reality-historical type terms.

An AP weapon should NOT have a greater base attack then 5. 4 seems to be the max I would and dare I say other's would as well. Defence and Armour im not sure about. the most I can see Klib's armour going is 8 max and defence 7 which to be fair to you...you have observed.

But please I urge you to be cautious with making any unit too powerful otherwise the respectibility of the mod will suffer. This is exactly what I don't want to happen to any mod.

just my humble opinion. cheers everyone,

Mike