Fury of the Northmen Mod

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,08:14)]Here is a little bit for starters. Let me know if you need more.

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Wilpurri, you´re a gem

Do you call that for starters? I´d love to see what you can deliver for the main course, he he Just kidding This is exactly the kind of research that we need. Please feel free to continue this spledid work. I know Norse is going to be exalted about this when he gets back from easter holidays.
Create your own doc/ archive for this and keep it until needed or finished since I know you´re going to turn up more, get new ideas etc like the one with the unique Finn units - just loved it.
Just to make shure. The timeframe should be between 700-1100 AD, in case I didn´t mentioned this before. Good luck

The time frame is correct. I specifically researched late iron age, or viking-age, material, so no worries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
/doc archive? Do you mean I should make my own word document for this, or something else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,10:40)]The time frame is correct. I specifically researched late iron age, or viking-age, material, so no worries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
/doc archive? Do you mean I should make my own word document for this, or something else?

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Yeah save it for later if you´re going to do some more research on this. I´ve copied this text for now but you might turn up something new that needs to be changed and it´s easier for you to keep track of theese things since you´re our Constable of the Finns, right?

Constable of the Finns, eh? Rather like that title.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Can anyone confirm theese:

FINNLAND
Snaer Vanha Jokulsson......................early 300's CE ?
Thorri Snaersson
? gap in sequence ?
Aude Rikas
Gisi
Andur
? gap in sequence ?
Froste
Loge
? gap in sequence ?
Faravid........................................fl. 870's

POLAND
Piast the Wheelwright.......................c. 840- ?
Siemowit
Lestko
Siemomysl
Mieszco I...................................c. 960-992
Boleslaw I Braveheart..........................992-1025
Mieszco II Lambert............................1025-1031
Bezprym.......................................1031-1032
Mieszco II Lambert (restored).................1032-1034
Pagan Rebellion...............................1034-1041
Casimir I the Restorer........................1038-1058
Boleslaw II the Bold..........................1058-1079
Wladyslaw I Herman............................1079-1102
Zbigniew......................................1102-1107

LADOGA
According to the Yngling Saga, Ivar and Harald, both kings of Denmark, established a vast Baltic empire which included the Ladoga region. The area was probably still under the day-to-day management of local Finn princes.

Radbard (Ratibor of Novgorod ?).........late 600's-c. 719
Norse period, 750-838
Viking traders and raiders from Scania, Uppsala, and Gotland probably took over Staraya Ladoga in the 750s. They called the town Aldeigjuborg and the area around it Gårdarike.
Aldeigja...........................................mid 700's ?
Bravlin............................................late 700's ?
Dir Bjorn..........................................early 800's ?
Possible republic......................early 800's-838
Khaganate of Rus period 838-862
This is one of the least-understood periods of Russian history. Around the 830's, Arab travelogues begin describing a Khaganate of the Rus, located far to the north. Its organization imitated the command hierarchy of the Khazar state. It is unclear whether the aristocracy was Slavic, Finnish or Norse in origin. Omeljan Pritsak, a Ukranian historian, speculated that the Khaganate of Rus was founded by Xan-Tuvan Dyggvi, a Khazar khagan who led a rebellion in the early 800's and fled north after his defeat. According to Pritsak, Xan-Tuvan intermarried with the local aristocracy and helped organize a new state along lines familiar to him. Unfortunately, because Pritsak is notoriously poor at documenting his theories and providing sources, the veracity of this claim about the nature of the Rus Khaganate, fascinating though it is, is impossible to determine.
Xan-Tuvan Dyggvi ? ................................mid 800's
Kievian Rus Period 862-1478
It is widely accepted that Staraya Ladoga became part of Rurik's dominions when he took over Novgorod in the 860s. Thereafter it was usually under the domination of Novgorod.
To Novgorod..................................860's-1478
Ingegärd (fem.)...........................1019-1050
Ingegärd was the daughter of Olaf Skötkonung, King of Sweden. According to the sagas she was promised as bride to the Norwegian king Olav Haraldsson in 1018, as peace gift. But Olaf broke his promise and married her in 1019 to the Russian Grand Prince Yaroslav. She received Ladoga as a marriage gift.

NOVGOROD
Sloven........................................fl. 7th cent.
Ivar the Glorious................................ -72 ?
Vandal.......................................72 ? -
Burivoy.......................................fl. 8th cent.
Randver.......................................fl. 8th cent.
Ratibor........................................fl. c. 800
Gostomysl the Reasonable......................8 ? -859
VADIMICH
Vadim I the Brave..............................859-862
RURIKOVICH
Rurik..........................................862-867
VADIMICH
Vadim the Brave (restored).........................867
RURIKOVICH
Rurik (restored)...............................867-870
VADIMICH
Vadim the Brave (restored).........................870
RURIKOVICH
Rurik (restored)...............................870-880
Oleg the Seer..................................880-912
Capital moved to Kiev..........................882-1169
Oleg I.........................................916-932
Igor I.........................................932-941
Svyatoslav I the Warlike, of Kiev..............941-969
Vladimir I the Apostle, of Kiev................969-977
Yaropolk I of Kiev.............................977-979
Vladimir I the Apostle (restored)..............979-988
Vysheslav I....................................988-1010
Yaroslav the Wise, of Kiev....................1010-1018
Ilya..........................................1018-1020
Yaroslav the Wise (restored)..................1020-1021
Bryacheslav of Polotsk.............................1021
Yaroslav the Wise (re-restored)...............1021-1036
Vladimir II...................................1036-1052
Izyaslav of Kiev..............................1052-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf, of Polotsk..............1068-1069
Gleb I........................................1069-1078
Svyatopolk I..................................1078-1087
Mstislav I the Great..........................1087-1094
David I.......................................1094-1095
Mstislav I the Great (restored)...............1095-1117

PSKOV
Center of tribal union of North Kriviches (Pleskoviches) until c. 800...
To Novgorod..................................c.800-862
Truvor (brother of Rurik, from Izobrsk)........862-864
To Novgorod....................................864-1132
RURIKOVICH
Sudislav......................................1010-1036


SMOLENSK
To Novgorod....................................882-912
To Kiev........................................912-1010
RURIKOVICH
Stanislaus....................................1010-1015
To Kiev.......................................1015-1054
Vyacheslav I..................................1054-1057
Igor..........................................1057-1060
Isyaslav I....................................1060-1068
Svyatoslav I..................................1060-1068
Vsevolod......................................1060-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf..........................1068-1069
Vladimir I Monomakh...........................1069-1093
Isyaslav II...................................1093-1094
David I............................................1094
Mstislav II the Great.........................1094-1095
David I (restored)............................1095-1097
Svyatoslav II.................................1097-1113


Regarding Estonia, Latvia and Lettland I have almost no info before the 12th century so any info on thoose would be great too.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 08 2004,11:46)]Can anyone confirm theese:

FINNLAND
Snaer Vanha Jokulsson......................early 300's CE ?
Thorri Snaersson
? gap in sequence ?
Aude Rikas
Gisi
Andur
? gap in sequence ?
Froste
Loge
? gap in sequence ?
Faravid........................................fl. 870's

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As I told you, these aren't taught in school books and aren't official history. The names sound very noewegianized, or germanicized, if you like. These arent finnish names. If you want to give finnish kings names, I'll post some more after some research. You see, finnish kings didn't exist officially, at least not after the re-writing of history in the 16 hundreds. Anyway, I wouldn't trust the norse sagas as being very accurate in a historical sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,16:49)]As I told you, these aren't taught in school books and aren't official history. The names sound very noewegianized, or germanicized, if you like. These arent finnish names. If you want to give finnish kings names, I'll post some more after some research. You see, finnish kings didn't exist officially, at least not after the re-writing of history in the 16 hundreds. Anyway, I wouldn't trust the norse sagas as being very accurate in a historical sense.

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That´s exactly why I posted it here since I don´t trust either the old roman scholars or my own Swedish historians on the topic of Finland since we´re tought the same things as you are at school. Would be great if you could correct this wilpurri. Thanks

The point is, that I cannot correct the list, and neither can anyone else.. There just aren't enough reliable records to arrange the kings in order of reign, and still call it historically accurate. I think a compromise, where we just gather ancient, possible names for the kings and put them in any order, is the best solution. Just like the Kings are in MTW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 09 2004,13:38)]I think a compromise, where we just gather ancient, possible names for the kings and put them in any order, is the best solution. Just like the Kings are in MTW.

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You´re probably right wilpurri. So you´ll research the names then? Remember, we´ll need the names of kings, princes, princesses, generals and heroes.

Kings, Princes and Generals:
Lempinen,
Ikäheimo,
Kaukiainen,
Ahti,
Ukko,
Ahti Rikas,
Pakkanen,
Lemminkäinen,
Väinämöinen,
Ilmarinen,
Lempo,
Kaukomieli,
Ikuturso,
Niera,
Mielikäinen,
Joukahainen,
Hämäläinen,
Rautia,
Sampsa Pellervoinen,
Väinö,
Kaleva,
Lempivalko,
Vehnäpää,
Kaukopäivä,
Rauma,
Seppo,
Tapio,
Uljas,
Urho,
Äijö,
Utujoutsi,
Hirvi,
Hyvätty,
Ihalempi,
Ihamuoto,
Ikitiera,
Ikopäivä,
Ikävalko,
Ilakka,
Ilmatoivia,
Untamo,
Montaja,
Nousia,
Osma,
Sarijoutsi,
Sotijalo,
Unti,
Unto,
Utujoutsi,
Valta,
Valtari,
Vihas,
Vihavaino,
Vilja,
Viljakka,
Viljari,
Viti,
Joutsimies,
Jutikka,
Kainu,
Kaivas,
Ahti Saarelainen,
Rasantaja,
Kaukomieli,
Kullervo,
Arijoutsi,
Seppo Ilmarinen,
Urho Kaukopäivä,
Kultimo,
Kukurtaja,
Uro Venemies

Princesses:
Tuuli,
Aino,
Mielikki,
Hyvälempi,
Mielitty,
Ilmatar,
Aamu,
Aili,
Anja,
Annikki,
Ilta,
Päivä,
Sirja,
Suvi-Marja,
Suvi-Tuuli,
Suvi-Päivi,
Auni,
Liekko,
Lemmikki,
Hellikki,
Talvikki,
Salme,
Lyylikki,
Tuulitar,
Vilutar,
Kivutar

Heroes (Legends, myths, etc):
Väinämöinen (Great wise man, wizard-warrior)
Ilmarinen (warrior, blacksmith)
Lemminkäinen (warrior)

somoone can tell me when this mod is released i have a urge to try him m8's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (DeadRunner @ April 10 2004,12:49)]somoone can tell me when this mod is released i have a urge to try him m8's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

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The only set ambition is to release this mod way before RTW hits the shelves but we are all anxious to release it as soon as possible. A lot of work remains though.

Both Norse and I have the same goal with this mod: to portray the vikings in a better and more historically correct way than in VI which only included one faction and the quest for England. Originally we had a vision to include Iceland, Greenland and New Foundland to the west and the Black Sea area to the east but due to size limitations to the trategic map in the game we have to narrow it down. The strategic map will be posted here as soon as I´ve solved some irritating problems with it. It will include Scandinavia, Brittish Isles, Northern France, N.Germany, N.Poland, NW part of Russia and the Baltics. New units, new tech-tree and other cool stuff.

To give you all an update on the work distribution and who´s who on this mod I take the liberty to present the FotN mod crew:

Norseman: text-files, graphics, maps etc.
PseRamesses: strategic map, research, maps etc.
Kominos: LBM-map
JayDC: Graphics

Research:
Norseman: Norway, Denmark and the west part of the map.
PseRamesses: Sweden and the east part of the map.
Wilpurri: Finland, Kareelia etc.
Eastside Character: Poland (and graphics)

Research vacancies:
N.W Russian petty states/ cities.
Baltic petty states/ cities.
N.German kingdoms/ petty states/ cities.
Dutch kingdoms/ petty states/ cities.

Any help on theese would be greatly appreciated. Part info already exist but more is needed. Thanks in advance.

A little update on my research about the different Finnish political entities:
At Viking age three distinct Finnish cultures can be identified: In Karelia, in Tavastia and in Varsinais-Suomi (Finland proper). In these three provinces there is believed to have existed regents or governors comparable to those among Germanic tribes; leading cult, big game hunting, defense and military expeditions. Finns are not believed to have launched Viking raids outside the Baltic. But nothing certain is
known.

The Finns (Karelians) did actually raid the Swedish capital, once or
twice.

Particularly in Karelia it is known (or sooner: believed) to have existed Viking trading posts, which became assimilated or alienated to the original Viking culture in Novgorod, Uppland, Gotland or wherever they had come from. The town of Staraja Ladoga was a Viking stronghold, for instance. A Viking type (but Tavastian) trade station has in recent years been excavated in the heart of Tavastia, in Varikkoniemi.

Finland's trade with the Vikings have left evidences as rich findings of Arabic silver coins, indicating Finland to have prospered as much as Scandinavia from the eastern trade. Finland was also an important trader of Walrus-tusks to the east, along with furs.


I have taken up the research on the Baltic regions as well, and when I get that finished, I could look into Novgorod and western Russia. Shouldn't be too hard to find information about that region.


Now, to the Baltic Here is some background information on the area in general, I will look into the different political entities and kingdoms later on.

The Baltic Sea has been the key to bringing northern Europeans together since mankind first learned to build ships and navigate upon the sea. Evidence of early travels throughout the sea can be seen by the various trade items found throughout the region, or in other areas of Europe. Hoards of precious metals such as silver, gold, and iron in the form if ingots, coins, tools and ornamental objects have been found all over the Baltic region. These hoards date as far back as the 8th century and up to the 13th century. They are evidence of trade networks developed during the rise of the Viking Age. Many of these hoards have been found in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The Vikings traveled throughout the Baltic, passing through the Baltic states as they traveled inland on the regions rivers, reaching as far as the Arab lands around the Black Sea and Constantinople. This is evident by the presence of many Arabian coins found in the hoards throughout the Baltic states. The finding of such hoards has lead to theories of the creation of a monetary system. The coins and larger ingots, brooches, pendants, and neck rings found indicate a need for varying values in order to pay for goods and services. The highest concentration of finds has been on the Swedish island of Gotland. This is believed to be due to Gotland’s location between Sweden and the Baltic states, making it a large and wealthy trading port between Scandinavia and the Baltic states and Russia to the east.

Amber Trade

The Baltics have long been a source for the highly sought and prized amber. This fossilized pine resin became a major trade item all over Europe and as far away as the Middle East. The sea has long been the source for Baltic amber. As far back as prehistoric times people gathered amber washed up on the shore. Later, different methods were used to obtain it. These ranged from scooping it up in nets as it floated at sea, to riding through the coastal marshlands on horseback. Other methods were to use long poles or pikes to pry the amber loose from the sea floor and collect it as it rose to the surface. In more modern times dredging the seafloor and mining on land have become the main source for Baltic amber. No matter what method was used to collect it, the best concentrations of Baltic amber come from the Lithuanian and Kalingrad region

This kings-list is complied by Eastside Charatcter. Thanks EC since mine was a bit wrong, he he.

Lech I----------------------duke-------550-???*-------pagan
Wizimir---------------------duke-------670-690*-------pagan
Krakus----------------------duke-------690-738*-------pagan
Lech II---------------------duke-------738-740*-------pagan
Wanda-----------------------princess---740-750*-------pagan
Leszek I (Przemysl)--------duke--------750-780*-------pagan
Leszek II-------------------duke-------780-804*-------pagan
Leszek III------------------duke-------804-810*-------pagan
Popiel I--------------------duke-------810-815*-------pagan
Popiel II-------------------duke-------815-840*-------pagan

THE PIASTS - PIAST DYNASTY, starts here
Piast the Wheelwright-------duke-------840-860*-------pagan
Ziemowit--------------------duke-------860-890--------pagan
Leszek IV-------------------duke-------890-921--------pagan
Ziemomysl-------------------duke-------921-960--------pagan
Mieszko I-------------------duke-------960-992-----catholic
Boleslaw I Braveheart-------king-------992-1025----catholic
Mieszko II Lambert----------king------1025-1034----catholic

(nobles' rebellion, Bohemian plundering of the country 1034-1041)

Kazimierz I the Restorer----king--1038-1058--------catholic
Boleslaw II the Bold--------king--1058-1079--------catholic
Wladyslaw I Herman----------king--1079-1102--------catholic
Boleslaw the Wrymouth-------duke--1102-1138--------catholic

Wilpuri, I read, what you had written about Baltic and it seems to be correct to me.
Have you any more specific questions that you would like to ask?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 11 2004,08:24)]Wilpuri, I read, what you had written about Baltic and it seems to be correct to me.
Have you any more specific questions that you would like to ask?

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Well, I am having a bit of trouble to find any good sources about major/important viking age settlements in Estonia and the Baltic in general. I'm sure there is a wealth of information out there, but it is very hard to find anything that would satisfy the following:
The major political entities,
Kings, Rulers, etc
important settlements, trade posts.

My guess is, that there isn't too much on this topic in English, but I'm sure that there is a whole lot in Estonian. My knowledge of Estonian is basically my Finnish language, and if I tried to translate anything in Estonian, this game would loose any historical accuracy it ever had on that topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif

I (and the others) would be really glad if you could lend a helping hand in the unravelling of this part of viking history.

If I understand correctly this mods time-frame ranges ca 800-1100.
The only information from this period is archaeological, without any written sources.

There were no kings in this period and there was certainly nothing that can be considered to be a state.

The area was probably divided into several counties (maakonnad) as it was later during German invasion in early
13th century. Sometimes the counties operated together and helped each other, sometimes not.

One of the richest and more populous counties was Saaremaa,
I think it may deserve a province in this mod.

I too have trouble finding more info on Internet and I don´t have my books with me right now. I think I have to search better.

Edit: some more
The entire area was actually quite rich,
trading goods included furs, honey, grain (lots of it)and wax.

Relations were good with Finns and Livs, there were small skirmishes with Latvian tribes.
Scandinavians attacked and plundered often (but weren´t strong enough to conquer or colonize), Estonians answered with the same.
Russians were the only ones who tried conquer the area.
In 1030 Grand Prince of Kiev Yaroslav the Wise took the stronghold of Tarbatu (Tartu).
Russians were driven out 30 years later with the help from Saaremaa. Victorious Estonians even tried to besiege Pskov.

Yes, it seems to have been much like Finland at the time. I read about a joint Estonian-Karelian raid on the main city of Sweden in around 1080 (I have to look it up), so it seems that Estonians had strong contacts over the Gulf. In fact, a lot of Estonians migrated over the gulf to southern Finland, mostly to Finland-Proper if I remember correctly.

When I said kings, I didn't mean kings in the traditional sense, but more like local strong men and so on, may be the names of the different tribes living in the area. I suppose they will have to be represented in the same way as the Finns, just gather a bunch of ancient (pre-Christian, preferrably) Estonian names for generals, rulers etc. Am I completely wrong in assuming that the difference between southern Finnish dialects and the language spoken in Estonia was significantly smaller than it is today?

It would be really good if you could mention how the different parts of Estonia were divided (some major province-like political entities) and what tribes ruled over them. Also, the main trade centres and settlements would be good to know.

old Estonian male names (Trax, feel free to add more/correct):
Kalev
Tuuslar
Kalevipoeg (potential hero?)
Olevipoeg(?)
Olev(?)
Alev
Sulev
Ahti
Arvo
Ülo
Vaino

Map of the counties in the beginning of 13th century,
anything earlier would be impossible to find I think.
http://www.hot.ee/etsiam/eestikaart3.jpg
Names, or at least modern versions of old names
Lembitu
Manivald(e)
Vootele
Tõivelemb
Toivo
Valdo
Ülo
Vesse
Õnnepäev
Meelis
Kaupo (livonian name)
There are not many old names known and again, it´s hard to find any good sources.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,08:30)]Hello PseRamesses,

I have some questions:

1. What is most likely going to be the campaign(s) starting date(s).
2. How many (approximately) provinces will there be in eastern Europe (from Jutland peninsula eastwards, not including Scandinavian east)
3. Will the Mod be an expansion (more snow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif )?

I understand provinces are going to be done later, but the distribution of land will influence what factions to include, and I've been reading lately about different slavic states (VII-IXc) and it made me wonder...

Regards,
EC

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EC,
1. Basically the same as VI, starting in late 8th century. Personally I think it would be cool to pre-start the ordinary Viking era with some 50 years for the build-up and unifying phase in your homelands. We´re open for input on this.
2. As for now we´re looking at around 25 provs for Scandinavia. Around 40 for the Brittish Isles and around 35 from N.France to Russia. Seems unproportional? Remember that only the north parts of France, Germany and Poland are in this mod and only the NW part of Russia. And Scandinavia is represented from Trondheim-Sundsvall-Vasa parallel and southwards.
3. I´d like that too. Would be really cool to have atleast every other battle in Scandinavia atleast with snow.

Regarding the slaves, i´m not shure which ones you mean, but the map cuts Germany and Polish on the middle.

Trax, glad you can join us and help out Wilpurri on the Baltics. Here´s some links which I haven´t have time to look at myself, maybee they´ll help. Good luck

Links in english:
http://archnet.asu.edu/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...chaeology.html
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/HistoryFiles.htm
http://www.worldhistory.com/
http://www.balticuniv.uu.se/index.htm

Links in Swedish:
http://www.estemb.se/index.html?saatkond=2&keel=18
http://www.stockholm.am.gov.lv/en/
http://hem.passagen.se/mihe2110/index.htm
http://www.rollspel.nu/juneborg/Historia/

I think we have Finland pretty much covered. I will now concentrate on the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania). The Livs were a major people/collection of tribes during this time period, so I might have a look into they're doings as well. I will then go on to Novgorod.
I have a suggestion though: The time period could start as early as 600 A.D, since the Eastern ventures of the Vikings began earlier than the ones to the west.

Just a question about the mod: Can you make a list of the factions? And which factions will be playable?


The Finnic Baltic peoples:
The Livs lived in the northern parts of Kurland, and spoke a finno-ugric language. around 650 A.D a viking outpost called Seeborg was built in Kurland, and it was to become one of the richest centres of trade in the Baltic. The Livs lived south of the Estonians. Important trade goods: Wheat, furs, horses, cotton, amber, wax and honey.
The Livs were able to fight off their viking overlords in the toward the end of the 800's. After this, Novgorod and the way east and south (eventually to byzantinium) became the main destination for raiding and trading, and many of the Baltic peoples; Finns, Estonians, Livs, Letts etc joined these raids. The Baltic was an excellent position trade-wise.

This position and wealth enabled the Baltic peoples to become more and more politically organized, but this process was shattered due to the event in the 1200's.
The weaponry produced in the baltic sometimes surpassed that of the Vikings, and they were militarily organized to a considerable extent. Warrior leaders kept the different political entities together. The Baltic peoples made their own version of the viking shipt, the Uisko, which could carry 15-30 men. There was a major baltic navy base at Hiidenmaa, because it was a natural harbor which could be easily defended.
Like Finland, also the baltic was littered with Hill forts. To this day, 162 of them were situated in the then Estonian territory, and 359 in the Livonian territory. Along the coastline of Livonia, Estonia and Southern Finland, beacons were constructed on hill tops, and were used to warn the ihabitants of invaders. During the late 900's, when the Silver mines in Turkmenistan had been exhausted, and the financial value of raids to the east decreased, the Scandinavians turned to the west. The varyags were assimilated into the Slavic and Finnic peoples of Novgorod, and the same happened in the Baltic. After this, the baltic states became increasingly united politically, and started their own raids. The growing population and wealth enabled the baltic peoples to conduct several successful raids at the christened eastern cost of Denmark and Sweden, pillaging and capturing people for slaves. The Baltic peoples, especially the navy of the Livs/Kurlanders was able to control virtually the whole Baltic Sea. The inland Estonians however, were hard put in defending their lands against the risen might in Russia. Novgorod fell into internal squabbles and disarray however. This period of prosperity and relative might in the Baltics was short lived, however, since they were now stuck between the Orthodox church in the East and the Roman Catholic chuch in the west. Ever since 1100, Finland and the baltic states became targets of the other Northern powers, Denamrk, Sweden and Russia.

For a long time the Livonian/Kurland navy was able to meet the Scandinavians on equal terms, both on land and sea. Around 1187, A combined force of Estonians, Livs and Karelians raided and sacked the capital city of sweden and the bishops seat, Sigtuna. This was the last pagan, viking-style raid venture in the baltics.

The Kurlanders were a Lativan tribe/people.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,15:47)]35 provinces for mainland Europe seems enough. My worries were there would be some 20 or less, but 35 is very, very nice.

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You´re reading to fast EC. I said around 35 provinces from N.France to Russia. Not 35 provs for mainland Europe.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 11 2004,15:30)]Just a question about the mod: Can you make a list of the factions? And which factions will be playable?

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Well, we can go for the full monty, that is 32 factions but I reserve myself on this since gameplay is of major importance wouldn´t you agree?
Basically Norse and I talked about the original 7 English facs from VI + 3 scandinavian facs + France, Germany, Polish, Russian etc. that brings us to around 14-15. We also taled about another Irish faction and splitting Germany into their representative tribes. Furthermore I´d like to see some representation around the Netherlands, NW Germany, 3 Baltic facs, Finland and numeral Russian petty kingdoms so we might wind up with the maximum 32 faction. We´ll see.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,16:28)]I believe Denmark is count as Scandinavia, is it not?

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You´re absolutelty right EC. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland is Scandinavia. Finland included and Iceland excluded we call Norden (the Norths) in Sweden.

BTW, you said you hoped for more than one campaign. Can you elaborate on this?

Have you given any thought to the different cultures?
E.G catholic, Orthodox, Arabic/Muslim? How will the factions in Fury of the Northmen be divided?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 11 2004,17:15)]Have you given any thought to the different cultures?
E.G catholic, Orthodox, Arabic/Muslim? How will the factions in Fury of the Northmen be divided?

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Not much thought yet. The pagan part should be dominating at the start and succumbing to catholicism and orthodox? beliefs as the game progresses. Would be great if you guys could look into this part too when researching factions and province info.

Well, I can already tell you something from the top of my head: Novgorod became gradually Greek orthodox at the turn of the millennia, while the Scandinavian factions would become Catholic around the same time. Finland and the Baltic stayed mostly pagan, except for parts of Karelia and may be some of the Baltic peoples came under orthodox influence from the east. At first, these newly created, loose, christian kingdoms were in disarray (eg civil war in Sweden, IIRC), but then they started their crusades. The crusades were much like the previous viking raids, except for in the name of God. The Baltics and Finland were stuck between a rock and a hard place, as Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Russia all started their colonization. First the new religion weakened the traditionally strong kingdoms, which played a part in the relative rise of the Baltic. A few centuries later, it provided a cassus belli and unity to accomplish the colonization of the pagan areas. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is pretty much how it went, if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I made a suggestion in one of my previous posts:
I think the starting date could be as early as 600 A.D, as the Viking ventures to the East started far earlier then the ones to the British Isles and the West.

EC hoped for two campaigns, and that gave me another Idea:
campaign one starts 600 A.D, Baltic nations, Finland, Novgorod are weak = ripe for conquests and raids.
campaign 2 starts 800 A.D. Baltic states stronger, wealthier, more united, British Isles weaker and better targets for Viking conquests.

Just an idea...

Eastside and Wilpuri,
I like how this idea is forming. This evening, while watching US masters, I was looking in to the time periods and the emergance of christianity in Scandinavia and I´m actually toying with yet another drastic idea.... three periods.
Roughly from 550-800 on early, high on 800-1050 and finally EC´s favourite 1050-1300 AD. Except that you guys have just tripled the workload upon us I see just one hinch with this. Religion during high since early high is pagan and late high is christian. Any ideas?

BTW, who won? Phil Mickelson, finally