No Joke: GOLD Thursday, 9/9 P.D.T

What was said earlier about people downloading due to later release dates is right on the money.

The best way to defeat casual piracy in hugely anticipated releases are simultainious world wide releases.

Your hardcore leecher is rarely going to pay for anything, however, most casual people simply give into the anticipation and will DL a game if it is not avaliable in their country for an extended period of time.

While a simultainious world wide release will delay things and tick off the Canadians and Americans who can't get their stuff as soon as it could be avaliable. Unless you've got some serious security issues at your company and a release group somehow steals a gold copy before its been sent to distro (has happened) you will cut back on piracy in a big way.

This brings up a few other points however, is the revenue lost by not releasing early in NA ASAP going to offset lost revenue due to pirating elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by Osbot

Your hardcore leecher is rarely going to pay for anything, however, most casual people simply give into the anticipation and will DL a game if it is not avaliable in their country for an extended period of time.

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agreed.

I dont think there is anyone on these forums who wont buy the full game... BUT, there is definitely a segment of people that could be swayed into the "light" with siluntaneous release dates imho.

Well, here's my encouragement for anyone thinking of downloading it before it's released in their neighborhood: if you do this you're a thief. If you don't like the term 'thief', you're still a thief. If you promise yourself you're going to buy it once it's in the shops, you're still a thief. If you think you deserve a copy for but can't afford it or can't wait, you're a thief.

Just because there's no practically enforceable legal remedy for this kind of theft, it's still theft. How to stop people from doing this? Good question, but I would ask why we have to put in the work to stop people doing something wrong.

hold on. you're telling me that it's illegal to download a single song from a $20 CD and it's legal to download a $50 game?
is this in the UK, or is it in the US as well?

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Originally Posted by USMCNJ

hold on. you're telling me that it's illegal to download a single song from a $20 CD and it's legal to download a $50 game?
is this in the UK, or is it in the US as well?

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He said whoever downloads a $50 game is a thief.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Just because there's no practically enforceable legal remedy for this kind of theft, it's still theft.

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does that mean that it is illegal but can't be inforced?
or that it is legal and is moraly wrong?

Maybe in the USA it's legal, but I doubt it. He meant that there were no way to prevent people from downloading whatever they wanted if they decided to, but didn't mean it was legal.

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Originally Posted by USMCNJ

does that mean that it is illegal but can't be inforced?
or that it is legal and is moraly wrong?

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Gil was perfectly clear; the law is perfectly clear. Downloading something that you don't have the rights to use and/or own is theft. Any other phrase is merely disguising the unpleasant truth that the person that does this is a thief.

Enforcement is neither here nor there in whether or not it is theft. The act does not cease to be theft and remains in most people's eyes, immoral and wrong. Or to be even plainer: getting away with an act does not make the act in itself right.

well from this thread i get the idea that it is pretty easy to download games online.
In my original post i was asking if this was the case because it was legal.
In the last few years i've heard a lot of thing about lawsuits based on downloading songs. (which lead me to believe that it is hard to download music) However, i've not heard anything about game related lawsuits. Since a song from a CD ($18/18 = $1 a song) seems to me of less value then a $50 game, i would expect to see more game realted lawsuits. (this plus this thread made me question if downloading games was legal)

ok, hopes that clears it up. (if i don't make sense i'll try to explain again tomorrow, at this point it's 6 a.m. and i've been up since 11 a.m.)

It's illegal to download a game or a piece of music without the copyright holder's permission. Neither crime is particularly easy to police, but they are both crimes.

"Practically enforceable" means: is it worth taking someone to court over one case of downloading, which is all that you'd probably be able to claim? The answer is almost certainly no. It would take a concerted effort of monitoring file access over a long period of time to prove that someone was downloading lots of games, and who's going to pay for it? The developers can't, the publishers might well not (it's cheaper to try CD copy protection), and there are probably few or no precedents for it working.

They recently tried this with music, as someone mentioned. The public reaction to this was a massive outcry, leading to some of the more heavily-publicised cases being dropped. So that's alright: if you look cute and puppylike, and can make a virtue out of your supposed ignorance that you were breaking the law, then you can get away with theft.

:-(

Firstly I will give my stance on the subject that the download of software (or music) without the copywrite holder's permission is theft and wrong, and I agree with the developers statements above on this...

On the subject of staggered releases not encouraging the download of software I do disagree though... We live in a world with the internet, information superhighway instant communication and practically instant data transfer across the globe... People have friends around the world... If you release something cool in country A this week and in country B next week it is going to leak out and there is a temptation to download. Simply having a global release date removes all this in one easy stroke, why is it such a problem to not do it???

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It's illegal to download a game or a piece of music without the copyright holder's permission. Neither crime is particularly easy to police, but they are both crimes.

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Just to be pedantic, thats not strictly true. In many cases it is legal to download a game so long as you already own a legal copy of the game. If you loose the disk, but you still have your serial number, you can download the game and re-install it legally. Of course many people abuse the system, and so you have to prove in court that you owned a legal copy before you downloaded if they come for u.

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

Just to be pedantic

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Being equally pedantic I would say you have the copywrite holder's permission at that stage (ie. you have a valid software license...)..

Just pay your hard-earned cash for the game. By legally purchasing the games we support the industry, which in turn helps keep these talented programmers deservedly in a job! If the balance tips sufficiently, the industry ceases to continue to move forward and the quality of the product and support offered will dwindle.

Waiting 1 week in an entire lifetime is hardly a great hardship, now is it??! Go out and play in the park, visit a friend, or spend a little more time with your partner.

First off, let me clearly state that i have already pre-ordered RTW and will be paying for my copy. I AM NOT advocating pricay in any way .... now with that out of the way, here is what i think a very interesting insite into piracy:

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by Brad Wardell (strategy first)

I recently wrote about this topic here. But I wanted to write a more succinct version of it since some people thought I was advocating something akin to Internet Product Activation to thwart piracy.

Let me first Bottom line this: CD based copy protection does more harm than good.

Let me then add: There is no magic bullet that will stop piracy. Game developers need to quit trying to solve piracy via some sort of mechanism and instead design a policy that discourages piracy. Game developers/publishers need to approach piracy in a more realistic way. As a result, there are two basic groups of pirates.

Group A: The kiddies who warez everything. CD Copy protection means nothing to them. They have the game before it even hits the stores.

Group B: Potential buyers who are really more interested in convenience. The price of the game isn't as big a deal to them as convenience.

It's group B that our industry needs to focus more on rather than alienating and inconveniencing our customers by trying to thwart group A. Sure, it ticks me off that people steal stuff I've worked for years making. But we have to be realistic about this, it doesn't do anyone any good to inconvenience customers. In fact, anedotal evidence seems to imply that the more we inconvenience customers, the more we turn them into group B.

Let me explain:
Joe Gamer buys a game that requires the CD to be in the drive. But his 3 year old takes the CD and loses it. Joe Gamer ends up going onto Google or whatever and pretty soon finds not just a way to play that game without a CD but now finds out how to get the "latest games" not just for free but more convenient than ever through the world of peer networks and warez. As a result, as future games come out, Joe Gamer must now balance "doing the right thing" (which typically means driving up to the store, paying money to be inconvenienced by copy protection) and loading up a program and just getting the game, for free, quickly and painlessly.

That's why I think CD based copy protections are a bad idea. I think they create pirates and aren't terribly effective anyway. They're supposed to keep the honest "honest" but I propose a better way.

NOT Internet activation. Instead, game developers adopt a policy that has been very successful in the non-game software market -- after release updates.

PC games often come out buggy, get one patch, and then are largely abandoned. It's really hard to feel sympathy for game developers who treat their customers that way. Instead of doing that, release frequent updates to the game for users. For free. Have them go through a secure network so that only registered purchasing users can get the update but make it as convenient as you can.

By doing this, you create a bigger incentive to be a customer than to be a pirate. It becomes increasingly inconvenient to have the latest/greatest version of the game via the warez route than the legitimate route.

This is what we've been doing with Galactic Civilizations since it's release. You can buy it at the store or directly at galciv.com and either way be able to download the full game electronically along with regular free updates. It has no copy protection on the CD at all. You can install it on your laptop and main PC. We "fight" piracy by releasing regular, meaningful updates that are much easier to get legitimately than through warez channels. We've found a lot of people who initially pirated GalCiv end up buying it as a result. And sales of the game have been quite good. Sell-in at retail world wide is in the six digit range so it's not a matter of "small scale" solutions here.

So how do game developers do this? Just set aside a relatively small amount of the development budget to implement user suggested features. One or two developers, part time, for 8 to 12 month after release can make a big difference. Is GalCiv pirated? Sure. But it's not nearly as easily available via warez channels (we do monitor this stuff) as other games of similar retail sales levels.

There's no magic bullet to stop piracy. Game companies need to realize that. Instead, the goal should be to reduce piracy as much as possible and rather than relying on some mechanism, they should focus on a *policy* that focuses on making it more tempting to be a customer than to be a pirate.

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Now for me, i am definately in group B. I am perfectly happy to pay £30-£40 for a game, as it is not a lot of money for me. But, as with RTW i have been waiting well over a year for the game and i'm absolutely desperate to play it. If the UK release was significantly delayed you can see how tempting it would be if you could get the game up to two weeks early .... a simultanous worldwide release provides another very compelling reason to be a customer instead of a pirate.

As I say, i have already pre-ordered and will be paying for the game, but it is unrealistic to think that everyone will make the same decision.

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Originally Posted by Bob the Insane

On the subject of staggered releases not encouraging the download of software I do disagree though... We live in a world with the internet, information superhighway instant communication and practically instant data transfer across the globe... People have friends around the world... If you release something cool in country A this week and in country B next week it is going to leak out and there is a temptation to download. Simply having a global release date removes all this in one easy stroke, why is it such a problem to not do it???

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Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

The R:TW demo was available somewhere around 24 hours (probably more) before official release time.

Anyway I already have R:TW on pre-order so I'll check my mail towards the last week of the month ~:) ...hassle free me.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

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fair points there. While most games are available as warez before games are released, i imagine the only people who are aware of this is the 'warez kiddies' who are going to download it no matter what CA or Activision do :(

whereas, most regular customers wouldn't think to look for illegal copies of the game before its even released (or know where to look for that matter). But, if the game has been released in the US, 2 weeks before they can legally get hold of a copy, the average gamer will become aware that copies of the game a going to be 'out there'. It is likely they will spend the 2 weeks waiting time searching for ways to get hold of it early... this unfortunately could turn a customer into a pirate

GilJaysmith, while you are here, do you have any info on the UK release date? ~;p

he who asks is a fool for 5 minutes (thats me) he who never asks is a fool for life ;)

If you have been gaming since you were 6 and have any idea how the internet works, you will know where to find warez. Most gamers fall into this category IMO, and though they know where to find the game, they won't bother and just wait for it to ship. However of course a large minority will never buy R:TW and they will just pirate it, sadly.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

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Costs money, ok. However delaying it in Europe you (Activision and CA) will lose many potential customers that will obtain the game downloading it cos they can´t wait between 10-15 days to buy it. And Sales = Money too.

I will buy the game sure and i don´t mind wait, but GilJaySimth, think that many people are waiting for this RTW for years and IMHO, and neither CA nor Activision is making the things easier to THEIR customers. Within 10 days the game will hit the shelves in USA (and the official info was released YESTERDAY!!!), however in Europe? New Zealand? and rest of the World? what´s happening?. Repeat, make the thing easier and the Group B will buy your games, sure. ~;)

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

I know the industry loses money because of downloads in situations like this, but the point remains, this is because *they* have decided to become thieves because they can't wait a few days to play what is, at the end of the day, just another game. Not because the industry is doing something 'wrong'. Because they WANT. WANT! WANT NOW! GIMME! NOW! NOW FOR ME!

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.

And if people think like that, then they'll find a way to 'justify' being a thief no matter how far the industry bends over backwards in an attempt to relieve the 'pressure of opportunity'.

When the world becomes the Culture then this problem won't arise. Until then, feh.

Some people have an idea of “fairness” in their heads that simply isn’t applicable here. Why should North American customers wait for something that’s already here? That would be plain stupid. Should copies of Rome sit unsold in boxes in Toronto just because none have reached London yet?

Persons who get their software illegally will do so regardless of any distribution plan because they can and because they are crooks.

I had to order a Cossacks expansion from the UK because the NA release was MONTHS later than in Europe. Them’s the breaks.

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

I know the industry loses money because of downloads in situations like this, but the point remains, this is because *they* have decided to become thieves because they can't wait a few days to play what is, at the end of the day, just another game. Not because the industry is doing something 'wrong'. Because they WANT. WANT! WANT NOW! GIMME! NOW! NOW FOR ME!

You have to wait for some things in life.

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True yes, but that is no way to address this ever growing problem imo.

If we just lay back and just hope people eventually see the error of their ways, and simply put our faith in human decency software piracy will NEVER cease to stop growing!!!

Bring on the Culture ~D

I've never been excessively bothered by waiting a couple of weeks to get stuff.
I've got a few boxes full of CDs to prove it ~:wacko:
Sometimes we even get stuff before the US & UK.

Meantime, I thought Enter The Matrix did the most mind bogglingly good job of project management to not only get the game out on time, but on 3 (or was it 4?) different platforms, all over the planet (yes, even off the beaten track places like NZ), all on the same day.

The launch day of the movie

I doubt we'll see that kind of feat again for a long long time.
Not least because its pretty much a waste of time/money/effort.

Was it pirated early too?

I wonder what the Grey Area would make of software piracy?
I guess it'd be a fair bit more concerned with Dubya, Osama etc but you know, Minds do like to meddle with peoples' lives...

I have no problem being called a thief. Why, I even admit to being one. That aside, why are you worried about piracy(aside from you loosing money)? More often thean not the illegal copies that one can get off limewire or IRC are of such poor quality, you might as well not even have the game. I know this is the case with Shogun:Total War.

Oh for Chrysakes - you want the game first in the UK and Australia - start breeding!!! ~;p

This is a business - and in business the US (or NA if you like) market trumps anywhere else in terms buying power.

So...there it is and I for one am happy to live in Florida now that all those hurricanes are behind us and the roads and airports are once again open for business.

Barkhorn. ~:joker:

Quote from the Total War website:

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Originally Posted by Activision

Rome: Total WarTM has been released to manufacturing and will be shipping to retailers in North America on Wednesday, September 22

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Look right here at the top of the page.

That means that if you have it on pre-order you should get it through your letterbox on the morning of the 23rd and if you want to buy it in a shop then it'll be on the shelves on the morning of the 23rd. (North America)

Nuff said.

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

IMO, it isn´t a convincing argument.

Here we are talking about RTW: publisher, magazines, webs are overwhelming us with this game for 2-3 years (screens, videos etc) and many people can´t wait. You have been stimulating the lions and now they are smelling the flesh blood you request patience...

A simultaneous release would cost money and non-simultaneous release (the situation here) will cost sales. It´s fair and simple. ~:)

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Originally Posted by GilJaysmith

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

I know the industry loses money because of downloads in situations like this, but the point remains, this is because *they* have decided to become thieves because they can't wait a few days to play what is, at the end of the day, just another game. Not because the industry is doing something 'wrong'. Because they WANT. WANT! WANT NOW! GIMME! NOW! NOW FOR ME!

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.

And if people think like that, then they'll find a way to 'justify' being a thief no matter how far the industry bends over backwards in an attempt to relieve the 'pressure of opportunity'.

When the world becomes the Culture then this problem won't arise. Until then, feh.

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i do agree with the arguement you are making and morally it is correct. The reality of the situation is that though is that the delayed release will cost CA and activision sales - its wrong, but it is the reality.

personally i think the way forward is content delivery systems such as steam or stardock central. These are two example of companies who have taken a realistic look at the problem and are finding new ways to combat piracy.

Stardock have ignored the 'Warez Kiddies' by saying "they won't buy the game either way, so if they copy it we have lost nothing". Instead, they looked at the segment of the market who copy games, who only do so because its convenient. To combat this, they allowed people access to a high speed download the game - this simultanously made it more convenient (fast download and very easy). Also they couldn't distribute the game worldwide quickly, so people in other countries could legally download on the day of release - so they didn't have to turn to piracy to get the game early.

Other benefits include more money for the developer (downloads bypassed the publisher ... the developer actually made more money from a lower number of downloads than they did from a higher number of 'store' sales). Better games for the customer etc etc

This obviously isn't a solution for RTW, but i think companies should start to look to these options for the future :)