Stw Mp

Kas and anyone else that is experiencing the stuck at "Logging On" problem:

Betou and I just resolved his problem by putting the Choice.com file in his Windows/system32 folder. I think it's still available for download here somewhere. If you can't find it, catch me on MSN and I'll send it to you. It is also automatically installed when you install my modified statswapper, which you can download from the Mizu sight. There's a link to it a few threads up.

This may not resolve the problem for some, but it did the trick for Betou, so FYI. Worth a try at least.

One by one, we will resolve these issues so those who want to play can play. As a genius, self-made millionaire IT expert friend said to me: NEVER let the machines beat you.

We WILL prevail ~;) .

It works! (took ages and countless tries though)

~:cheers:

Played Totomi 2v2 10k :charge:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

1.03 is great if people don't bring the unbalanced armies...after it had been used for a while almost everyone was bringing the monks/nag cav armies. Powerful, flexible and very easy to use...but also very boring I think. Yari sam need a boost or you need to restrict the monks and nag cav. That was my conculusion after about 400 games on it.

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What koku level did you play at? That stat is made for 7k. It's true that YS were weakened by -1 def but all cav has -1 melee as well. Monks did pick up +1 melee and +2 moral but their armor was reduced. Archers are the best counter to monks although heavy cav will beat them as well. I also wouldn't sell the naginata short because it's a very good unit in v103. Maybe too good. It is possible the monk/NC army is too strong. I don't remember testing that combination.

WE/MI v1.02 balance is worse than v1.03 for multiplayer. At least v1.03 plays at 7k. It was an attempt to address the three main gameplay problems of v1.02, but the tools available are imprecise so those issues are not fully corrected in v1.03. Raising koku to 10k doesn't improve the balance in either version. No attempt was made to balance either version at 10k. I don't buy it that playing something with worse balance requires more skill unless you're talking about skill in exploiting the imbalances.

Apparently, the thing that can't be overcome is most player's reluctance to use mods in online play. I would have thought that the small group interested in continuing to play WE/MI online for 2 years would fix the thing with a whole new stat instead of spending all that effort to master such a flawed thing as v102. It's most unfortunate that the beta team who worked on v102 didn't make original STW the basis for the WE/MI v102 with the idea of simply making small adjustments to it. In that case, we wouldn't have had cav that's too fast or guns that are too strong. The yari ashi problem would still have been there because that's due to an error in how the weapon and armor upgrades are calculated. Today, most vets say original STW had the best gameplay of all the versions of total war.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

... I don't buy it that playing something with worse balance requires more skill unless you're talking about skill in exploiting the imbalances. ...

... Apparently, the thing that can't be overcome is most player's reluctance to use mods in online play. I would have thought that the small group interested in continuing to play WE/MI online for 2 years would fix the thing with a whole new stat instead of spending all that effort to master such a flawed thing as v102. ...

Today, most vets say original STW had the best gameplay of all the versions of total war.

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Did I miss something? Who said anything about 1.02 requiring more skill? And when you say: "... unless you're talking about skill in exploiting the imbalances," to whom are you referring when you use the word "you're?"

My take on the "small group interested in continuing to play WE/MI online for 2 years" thing is that, most just want to play and brag and pal around with their chums. Those that enjoy creating and serving the community for practically no reward are few and far between (though a large number of those that exist are here, at the Org). Some of us might have taken on such an effort that you describe, if there was a call for it. But the fact is, those that were participating were pretty much happy with things the way they were. The kind of work you took on to modify stats is a huge job--and I learned from your experience--without having to go through it myself. It wasn't worth the cost to me. But I found smaller things I could do for the community instead, and it has felt good to contribute. I suspect others who were capable of doing what you suggest felt the same way.

As far as investing energy into a flawed thing goes--if that thing is the only thing in use that allows one to play with a large number of other people, doesn't it stand to reason that folks will choose it, and, as is the nature of most humans, try to do their best with it?

Yes, I've read this time and time again now, in posts by those that consider themselves "vets": original STW MP was the best. I wouldn't know, I wasn't here. And I guess that makes me and all those who came after unable to hold any credit with "vets" as to what we think, it seems. But you know what? That's exactly the problem with the "vet" mentality. As time passes, "vets" become more and more of a minority. And more and more "newbs" come on and discover the TW games. Many do not have the experience--and therefore also lack the biases--that the "vets" have. And they look at things with a fresh and unjaded eye. I couldn't help but suppress a chuckle when I read recently that a "vet" was surprised that Rome seemed to be so popular still, given the "terrible" state of the game. This illustrates what I mean. It won't be long before the "newbs" become experienced, and good, and then damn good. And then, the only thing that will differentiate them from the "vets" is this "how long I've played TW games" thing ... and perhaps, in some cases, the level of service that some, like you Puzz3D, have provided to the community. The "vets" will have two choices wont they? Adapt and evolve with the game and it's following, or fall by the wayside ... .

As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line regarding STW MP today is: come online, join the group, play the style of game you like with the people you like, and HAVE FUN. What is better or worse, balanced or unbalanced, "vet" or "newb" doesn't matter. What matters is that you have a good time with your m8s playing games online.

You both are right here...

Of course the game must be as balanced (=fair) as possible...the 1.03 is a step in the right direction and with some unit and koku restrictions it's a good mod...perhaps not perfect, but good enough. Original STW was perhaps the nicest...and it's possible to find loopholes to exploit on MI/WE, but those who now play online can not be compared with the original "cast". Most value fair play en good behaviour...we now see people who care about their reputation and the big word...often used in the past...HONOUR. Most use fair (so called "vets" might call it stupid) armies now. The people who now play online are not interested in "the army that wins 'em all" and that's very nice.

With this attitude 1.02 can be fun...10k perhaps bit too much...I prefer 8k, but I don't mind...I have fun and that's what I'm here for :bow:

:eeeek:

Sadly I have to admit I agree with Mimesaka about the 1.03 used with 7k games.
The exploit arises, I think, in the mounted troops charge bonus.
Almost all games was fast, with many mounted troops and just a bunch of monks to use against the opponents YS.
I think it would be interesting to hear Kansuke's opinion as well, about this stats.
:bow:

STW MP is considered a standard now. It was a fairly new thing to play with and that may have set the tone of splendid (there was nothing to compare) and I certainly had a good time in many fun games. There were also quite a few flaws though. I would hesitate to call it 'the best' and use it as reference for every next title.

A technically good game (stat, mechanics, lag) is only one part of MP though. I'm saying this in an extreme way: 'the worst stat can make good games when playing with fine people.'

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

'the worst stat can make good games when playing with fine people.'

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~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

'the worst stat can make good games when playing with fine people.'

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Bingo. I extremely agree. :bow:

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Bingo. I extremely agree. :bow:

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Well, v103 just got shot down because of people taking monk/NC armies. What happened to the fair play idea that's being used as the reason the imbalance in v102 can be ignored? It doesn't really matter anymore. I accept that v1.03 is dead. The v102 is used simply because it's what got released as the official patch, but I can't have fun with v102. It grates on me every time I see the imbalance that could have been avoided at the time it was developed. Some people think v102 is what I wanted, and that I manipulated people to get what I wanted. Well, v102 isn't what I wanted. It never was. I wanted the v102 to play as close to STW v1.12 as possible because that's what the majority of the community wanted at the time. The monk problem had already been fixed with a 10% increase in its cost in WE/MI v1.01. If the only adjustment made in v1.02 had been to tone down guns to their STW v1.12 level, the Sengoku Period would have played better than the current v1.02.


It was Mimesaka Akechi who said, "1.02 and 1.03 are both flawed imo, though I think in 1.02 the more skilled players is more likely to win than in 1.03."

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

As far as investing energy into a flawed thing goes--if that thing is the only thing in use that allows one to play with a large number of other people, doesn't it stand to reason that folks will choose it, and, as is the nature of most humans, try to do their best with it?

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That's settling for something inferior. With your reasoning, you should have moved to MTW once that was released because that's where most of the players went. The whole journey through WE/MI v1.00, v1.01, v1.02, v1.03 and v1.05 occured because players were dissatisfied with the gameplay. Unfortunately, a concensus within the player community of what constitutes the best gameplay has never been achieved, and we are therefore doomed to play the inferior thing that CA puts out eventhough there is modding capability in the game. The 8 players on the v1.02 beta team couldn't agree. The failure of that v1.02 beta team to come up with a better solution than it did closed the door on any future, CA sanctioned, community effort to adjust the gameplay of a CA product. It also sowed seeds of distrust in the community itself for player made gameplay adjustments.

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Originally Posted by puzz3d

It was Mimesaka Akechi who said, "1.02 and 1.03 are both flawed imo, though I think in 1.02 the more skilled players is more likely to win than in 1.03."

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Only because of the people bringing the monks/nag cav army. All nag cav is overpowered too. I didn't mean to say that the patch itself required less skill, far from it. If people brought lots of guns and super ashi 1.02 would require less skill.

I intend to play 1.03 when I manage to get online to the fake server...though yogi's tourney will probably be 1.02.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I accept that v1.03 is dead. The v102 is used simply because it's what got released as the official patch, but I can't have fun with v102. It grates on me every time I see the imbalance that could have been avoided at the time it was developed ...

... Some people think v102 is what I wanted, and that I manipulated people to get what I wanted. Well, v102 isn't what I wanted. It never was ...

... That's settling for something inferior. With your reasoning, you should have moved to MTW once that was released because that's where most of the players went.

... Unfortunately, a concensus within the player community of what constitutes the best gameplay has never been achieved, and we are therefore doomed to play the inferior thing that CA puts out eventhough there is modding capability in the game. The 8 players on the v1.02 beta team couldn't agree.

... It also sowed seeds of distrust in the community itself for player made gameplay adjustments.

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***

I can imagine how you feel m8, and I empathize. But, there were people in the fake-foyer last Sunday who would have enjoyed 1.03 games, and I think they have the ability to swap as well. So if you enjoy 1.03 games, you might consider dropping in and seeing if anyone wants to muck it up using 1.03. My guess is you won't have any trouble finding people who will play with you.

You certainly don't seem like the manipulating type to me m8. It seems to me like you made a heroic effort to make a good thing better, and ran into the oh-so common issues that arise when a group of smart, talented and opinionated people try and work together on something to improve it. "Improvement" is subjective, and unfortunately in the case of 1.02, things didn't turn out very well (at least in the minds of some--but some have used it and enjoyed it for a very long time now--that's to your credit, even if you are not happy with the results!). You and your team gave the community options, and some of us really appreciate that. The same goes for 1.03 and 1.05 ... they allow for choice and variety. These are very good things, and you folks made it possible. Thank you.

Unfortunately, MTW online (and now RTW) are not options for me at this time. I also have a personal affinity for Shogun (my heritage, etc.). I see your point regarding migration to MTW, but considering my circumstances and preferences, it wasn't something I wanted to do, even if I might have been able to slog out a 1v1 on MTW with my old PC and slow conn. So, in that context, maybe my reasoning will make more sense to you.

Doomed ... interesting word. I think maybe it's a matter of perspective m8. You have demonstrated that you possess both the insight and the skill to mod even the most complicated aspects of the game. The 1.02 effort with those 8 others didn't work out very well. But there are hundreds if not thousands of others out there that possess equal or better ideas and technical skills. Maybe you could find some others with whom you are more compatible in goals and methods? As far as achieving a consensus is concerned, that's a tough nut to crack, and not under anyone's control. Jochi Khan's parable (from his Org signature) comes to mind ... .

I can't speak for others regarding distrust of community stats etc., but I'm always willing to give them a try and judge for myself whether they are fun for me or not. As I said in an earlier post, some are just here to play and brag and chum around with their friends, so their interest in anything outside of the norm-easily-installed-easily played is minimal. They are satisfied with what they have. But, there are many who enjoy trying new things, in hopes of something even better. It is to that market that your efforts have great value.

I've said it before and I'll say it again m8, I appreciate the things that you and the others like you have done. And I look forward to seeing what else you folks come up with in the future. Salute. :bow:

I'm always willing tp play 1.03 ~:)

Still have problems logging on though :wall:

Personally I dont care which version of Shogun you play Ive always loved the game since the start whatever version they were all good even the first version with the insane monks was entertaining, which is more than you can possible say for the Rome MP which was obviously programmed by my Nan.

Ive played more games than most on Shogun well over 10000 online and its a great game IMO versions dont bother me if somone can tell me how to get onto the new servers ill play it again although it will take time to adjust to its speed after MTWs slower pace.

CA created a great online experience with Shoggie and have got progressively worse with the last 2 games (Rome being a joke), maybe it was a fluke.


MizuSp00n

Very happy to hear that people still play the great game. Its also great to see that very good players have emerged since the old days, although its a shame some of you new guys never saw it in its prime, ah to think I thought Rome could match it doh.

Hi Sp00ny M8,

I will give it a go, so look forward to seeing you on Sunday :duel:

Its very simple to set up, do the following:

open internet.cfg (open this with wordpad ~;) ) in the STW root directory and replace the content by:

ChatserverIPAddress = 212.238.194.39 enter this
ChatserverPort = 8793 enter this
NewsserverIPAddress = daphne.eagames.co.uk
NewsserverPort = 8797
ShogunTotalWarWebsite = www.totalwar.com

Two small changes and thats it, you can enter using any name, no need to register or anything.

On the issue of 1.02 and 1.03 I don't mind either, but IMHO the best solution lies somewhere in-between the two ~;)

I'm not quite convinced that the monk/nag cav army in v1.03 can't be effectively countered. First of all you can't buy 8 H2 monks and 8 H2 NC for 7k koku. You can buy 8 H1 monks and boost one NC to H3. To counter that army I would buy 3 H2 HC, 4 H1 SA, 4 H3 NI and 5 H4 YS. Doesn't that work as a counter army?

An H1 monk has 10 melee combat points +1 for the 4 charge points = 11 equivalent melee points while an H4 YS has 9 melee points which would jump to 17 points vs NC. The H3 NI has 14 melee points, so that will easily hold up an H1 monk, and eventually beat it. The H2 NC has 12 equivalent melee points, so it is weaker than the H4 YS and the H3 NI. The counter army then has 3 H2 HC (15 melee equivalent points) which will beat either the H2 NC or the H1 monk, and it has 4 H1 SA which would preferably shoot at the monks. It all depends on how well the faster monk/NC army can outmaneuver the slower YS/NI/HC/SA based army. The SA has to stay close to it's inf support.

1 H3 NC = 16, 7 H2 NC = 84, 8 H1 WM = 88 for 188 equivalent melee combat points.

3 H2 HC = 45, 5 H4 YS = 45, 4 H3 NI = 56, 4 H1 SA = 0 for a total of 146 equivalent melee combat points.

This would jump to 186 with the YS anti-cav bonus if you could get the good YS vs NC matchups with all 5 YS. You can't get that matchup with all of the YS, but you might get a couple of them. There is also the chance of charge negation on the NC which would knock off the equivalent of 4 melee points from each NC. I think it comes down to protecting flanks and effective use of the SA for this army to win. Potentially, one SA can kill 150 monks, but of course they won't stand still and let you do that. However, with 15 volleys which takes 90 seconds an SA could wipe out a WM. If the 4 SA even only take out 1/2 of 4 WM units, that would be a loss of 22 combat points to the monk/NC army dropping it to 166 points. If you also managed two YS vs NC matchups, that would boost the YS/NI/HC/SA army from 146 to 162 melee points. So, you don't have to be perfect with the archers or the YS to even things in terms of combat power. It then comes down to whether you can be a little better than 1/2 a monk unit with the SA or 2 YS vs NC matchups to offset the speed advantage of the monk/NC army.

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Originally Posted by Kansuke

On the issue of 1.02 and 1.03 I don't mind either, but IMHO the best solution lies somewhere in-between the two ~;)

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What would that be? Slower cav? Less emphasis on cav charge? We could make it, but would anyone play it?

Hi,

Don't get me wrong, the 1.03 stats are nice, they have a more realistic balance as opposed to 1.02 (musks are to damn strong), but when used in a no rules game (1.03 stats), one can't help but come up with a good rush or semi-rush army. However, if the 1.03 stats were to be played as a 4 max rule army, then 1.03 Vs 1.02 , 1.03 stats IMO are better.

What I am trying to say is, missile units should have sufficient fear factor and effectiveness, its hard enough to stop a good rusher in 1.02, but in 1.03 a good rusher can have a feild day.

Yuuki, I recall a very good 1.02 10k game on Totomi, I had with you towards the end of last year, most who have played me, know I like a good shoot-out, and had one of my basic defensive 7 missile armies and I was defender too, heh, you on the other hand had a 4 missile army and inflicted a heavy defeat on me. How could that be possible in 1.02 stats? Well the answer is simple, you chose light rain and had a better mobile army than mine, this combined with good skill, you won ~:) , most importantly this shows that the 4 max in 1.02 works, it may not be the solution, but it makes the stats playable and rewards a skillful approach during battle.

We are currently seeing a rekindling of a tiny STW/MI community, it would be a shame if it stuttered to a halt due to indecision over which stats to use.

Just my opinion.

:bow:

PS:Which days is the server up?, I need to polish my Katana in readyness :duel:

Methos's server is up on weekdays and saturday, Tosa's on sunday.

Yuuki, I was referring to the 4 ranged, 6 monk, 6 nag cav...you have a little shootout and then just charge in and crush your opponent...monks and nag cav combined beat a naginata infantry unit quite quickly as Kans showed me several times ~:) the army you posted is very slow. I can just send in the monks and a couple cav against your nag inf and wait untill they rout.

I tried in 1.03 bringing 16 nag cav or 8 nag cav and 8 no dachi and won very easy...though my opponents weren't the best of players.

Kansuke,

The v103 isn't designed to stop a rush army with an army containing 7 ranged units. The most you can probably get away with is 4 ranged. That's why I only have 4 SA in that proposed anti-monk/NC army. If you make the stat so that ranged units can stop a rush, you have projectile wars. It was never the intent in v102 to have guns stop a frontal charge by HC or NC, and that's one of the things we fixed in v103, but if you look at the stat you'll see the guns are only 10% weaker in firepower and 1 second longer in reload for 3 rank rotating fire. The archers went up from 28 arrows in v102 to 36 arrows in v103, so they are better. The point is you have to protect your guns in v103 with some other unit, and you don't have to in v102. When you have light rain in v102, that's the firepower per volley guns were supposed to have in dry weather because you get 25% misfires. The guns in v102, which 50% of the beta team appoved, were 25% weaker in firepower per volley than what got released. That's the firepower that the approved v102 stat was tested at. The actual final stat got exactly 3 battles of 1v1 testing between players who were not equally matched.

I don't really think 4 max fixes the problem. If I take 4 archers in v102 and you take 4 guns, how much of a disadvantage would you say I have? There is definitely a disadvantage, and there wasn't supposed to be. From my experience with v102, I'm at the equivalent of 2 unopposed 60 man musket units disadvantage. Two unopposed musket units can kill 600 of my men. That's 10 units. If I take the requisite 4 muskets to counter your 4 muskets, I know about the creeping up to the edge of max range to get off a couple of volleys at the enemy's guns before he notices and returns fire. He suffers so many casualties in his gun units to those two unreturned volleys that he can never recover from it which means he is going to have to eventually rush with an army that's weaker. Basically, it's not about engaging the line and then looking for flanking opporunities with units that have been held in reserve. The gameplay, if you've lost the gun battle, is more a mad dash to one flank hoping the enemy doesn't react in time to the maneuver.

Methos' server appears to be offline at the moment, my fault really, I increased his lust for RTW 10 fold and now he's probably playing that instead.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Yuuki, I was referring to the 4 ranged, 6 monk, 6 nag cav...you have a little shootout and then just charge in and crush your opponent...monks and nag cav combined beat a naginata infantry unit quite quickly as Kans showed me several times ~:) the army you posted is very slow. I can just send in the monks and a couple cav against your nag inf and wait untill they rout.

I tried in 1.03 bringing 16 nag cav or 8 nag cav and 8 no dachi and won very easy...though my opponents weren't the best of players.

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If you bring 4 ranged, that's more of a problem for my army, but you are already moving away from the all rush army. So, v103 is already at work influencing a more balanced approach than simply all rush units. I still don't quite see it. My NI line is not going to rout very easily if it's properly supported with flanks covered. Even if you use H2 monks, they can't defeat the H3 NI frontally, and I have 2 HC for a total of 6 units to counter your 6 WM. I have YS to counter the NC. If you are going to cut back on the number of NC to 6, I could cut back on the number of YS to 4. I could take a 5th archer an use it just to shoot up the monks or I could make my gen an H2 YC and take another H2 YC giving me 2 of them to counter any NC that try to flank.

16 NC and 16 HC armies were tested, and there are effective counters to those all cav armies. The counter army I proposed is slow, but there is the YC which is a fast anti-cav unit. The YS is weakened in v103, and, because the HC has to still beat the improved WM, the HC can now almost beat a YS which isn't good. I thought the cav charges were high enough in v102 if not too high. The combat calculation cuts off at 20 points advantage.

H4 no-dachi at 558 koku has 11 combat points and some armor compared to H2 monks at 550 koku with 12 combat points and no armor. I don't think the no-dachi constitutes stronger melee unless you play at a koku level where you can make some weapon upgrades on them taking advantage of the improper calculation of the upgrade's cost. The MP game never needed WM. It was a redundant unit and overpowered in original STW. It's actually outclassed by no-dachi in v102 at 10k, so we made it stronger in v103 because a lot of players complained that the monks in v102 were not as good as they should be. A big problem in original STW was that HC didn't beat monks. Nothing beat monks at equal cost. They were 10% cheaper than they are in WE/MI, had armor and archers only had 28 arrows.

From what I read this argument is going round and round and getting nowhere, nice to know nothing changes ~;) It is obvious also that people still look for exploits and flaws. As long as this is the case, please, stop using this word 'honour' it really is not the case is it?

May I ask how many actually play STW in any shape or form these days? I was just curious

......Orda

Yup going around in circles...in any case I do think 1.03 is better, though I can enjoy 1.02 very much. I haven't played in a while so i don't remember exactly, I could be wrong.

My favorite army (on a more or less flat map):

4 YariSams (including the general)
2/3 NoDashi
3 SamArchers
2/3 Musks
2 NagCav
2 YariCav

Upgrades depend on koku level...

It's perhaps a very basic "standard" army, but it suits me fine. I think (hope ~:confused: ) it's a fair army. I'm just no good with cav archers, so I gave up on them. I use this army for both attacker and defender. I'm not a great player, but I have good results on 1.02 and 1.03 with it.

I like 2v2 most...just more fun as 1v1 and still enough space to move around a bit. I also like 3v3 games.

When I face a good player (good with cav archers) 1v1 I'm mostly minced meat...that's fine...keeps me humble ~D

I always played to have fun ( to me there is no other reason to be here ) and I often had success with this lot...
2 NC
2YC
4CA
3SA
2ND
2YS
YC Taisho

I'm the odd one out who always preferred Mongol games

....Orda

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Originally Posted by Kas

My favorite army (on a more or less flat map):

4 YariSams (including the general)
2/3 NoDashi
3 SamArchers
2/3 Musks
2 NagCav
2 YariCav

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I had enourmous problems with those spear/nod/musk armies of yours in the 103 tournament. I was metally knocked down and it took me a long time to select an army for the next match: I thought my default 103 balanced army could kill anything anywhere (depending on my own performance of course ~D ).

Sounds like an interesting challenge to beat the NagCav, monk, missiles army.

Mongol games can be great fun. I like the combo of stinging hornets and good for scrapheap infantry.

Got my copy :charge:

See you online ~D

See you Sunday evening.

:charge: :duel: ~;)

Jochi

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Sounds like an interesting challenge to beat the NagCav, monk, missiles army.

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It's more than an interesting challenge. It's essential or the v103 fails in it's aim to move the game toward balanced armies by providing effective counterarmies to unbalanced armies. The weaker YS in v103 makes it more difficult to counter that army.

My std 103 army had a very hard time against the NagCav/monk/musk army on iron (those flat maps will favour cavalry, charges will be more succesful).

1 H3 NagC
7 H2 NagC
4 H2 Musk
4 H2 Monks

That's the army?

I modified my army a bit and could fence them off, though the situation is still dangerous. I recall that we wanted to increase the spear vs cav bonus a tad in 103, but that's a hardcoded value.

That's a problem with STW: solve a problem at one end and you get another one. This was one of the reasons it took so long to make. Ysam is still about fine, but YA would be a better unit if the spearbonus was 5 or 6 instead of 4. MTW and VI introduced these individual tweaks and put an end to some other pesky loopholes (upgrade cost, number of upgrades and battlefieldupgrades to mention a few).