Alexander realism....

It's an answer of somebody who's tired with this debate. It leads nowhere if you have your own definitions of words, different than those used by respected historians worldwide, it leads nowhere if you use specific examples, which are well known (I have a whole chapter about Timarchos' case in my history book, so it's not something that's hidden from the world by some 'international gay historians conspiracy'), to counter statements that speak about different aspects of the matter. Of somebody who's forced to go through original texts because translations are not accepted, even if those translations are equal to what I can come up with myself, because I also have to translate these text to my own language to understand them, so what's the point?
And in the end, it doesn't really matter. You won't be convinced, I won't be convinced. You have your books, I have mine, you have your evidence, I have mine, and usually it's the same evidence, just different interpretation. There's no point in this debate, really.

I wonder you found the facts for what you say on your own or somebody said it or wrote it and you just accept as fact? Even if homosexuality was a fact as in all periods, it wasnt something to be displayed openly and certainly not something to be proud of. If it was there wouldnt be laws to prevent it. In this point im saying that i do not want to attack gay people its their right to do what they want with themselves but im against in spreading propaganda theories in order to create argues like ''they did it in greece also''. There is not even one report of Alexander being gay but there is one of him being furious with a man who tries to offer him a boy saying by what right he offends him in that way. Many people comfuse the deep love between friends with the one between lovers. In greek there are different words for these kinds of love. The spirituall and sexual. Anyway Im not trying to be sovinistic nationalistic or anything but since some people do whatever they can to promote cultures wich the only things they offered were the dark ages i think i have the right to defend my heritage. And please god.. No more Hollywood ''epic'' pictures with greek themes. We will forget even the things we know...( see TROY) I dont know guys but lately i see that this kind of media propaganda is trying to distort or even rewrite history. You ll think that im saying stupid things. You see before 50 years some nice people in an X Yougoslavia state called Skopja started declaring that they were the true Macedonians and Alexander descendants (they ''forgot'' the fact that they are Slavs) and started spreading propaganda material, editing their own school books etc. Everybody in Greece were laughing saying that this was just some joke. Guess what the right propaganda and interests made USA legalize their name as MACEDONIA. They teach their kids now that they are the good guys that were wronged by the nasty greeks who stole their ''History''. They are comfusing their people with reformed school books.
So you see even little things even a wrong opinion being established in 50 year maybe will distort history. Thats why im so sensitive in that matters

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Seems to me like, nowadays, 2 men having sex is nothing big, and viewed as a normal thing (or at least acceptable). Times havent changed.

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I wonder if thats sarcasm?

Why do you think all that protesting went on for gay rights and stuff, because people wouldn't allow it. Gays weren't allowed to get married legally until a year ago? To me two men having sex is kind of odd, let them do what they wanna do just get me or any member of my family in that nonsense.

Even the most conservative members of any non-religious academic ancient-studies department in the U.S. (and I really only limit that to four or five hard core nearly fundamentalist ones) would hardly spend more than twenty minutes of their time trying to convince someone that the ancient greeks had different social customs, which allowed for homosexual relations given certain restrictions. It is not an issue. It does not mean anyone today from Greece must be gay or must approve of 'gayness'. It has nothing to do with today. They also were cool with slavery. That doesn't mean they were evil or that today's Greeks must in some way pay for this. The social custom had virtually no similarities to what people think of today when they think of 'homosexuality'. This is ridiculous to waste further time on. It has nothing to do with today.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Even the most conservative members of any non-religious academic ancient-studies department in the U.S. (and I really only limit that to four or five hard core nearly fundamentalist ones) would hardly spend more than twenty minutes of their time trying to convince someone that the ancient greeks had different social customs, which allowed for homosexual relations given certain restrictions. It is not an issue. It does not mean anyone today from Greece must be gay or must approve of 'gayness'. It has nothing to do with today. They also were cool with slavery. That doesn't mean they were evil or that today's Greeks must in some way pay for this. The social custom had virtually no similarities to what people think of today when they think of 'homosexuality'. This is ridiculous to waste further time on. It has nothing to do with today.

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I never said that im offended cause i m afraid that people would categorize today greeks as gay. Im offended cause some people (and yes even scholars can create ''grey'' areas) use ancient greek society to support and justify what they do in their personal lives or other interests. I clear that im not implying anything for the members here but im against the people who put those ''facts'' in their minds. Call them professors, books, sites or whatever.

About slavery issue yes greek was cool with that but slaves were not treated as animals but rather as servants who belonged to the house. Therefore was laws protecting them also from abuse. Unlike many societies n at the dawn of 20th century. Acts of cruelty were not recorded except Helots in Sparta (population control) who belong in a different category and some times war prisoners like the Athenians captured in Syracuses(acts of vengeance)
In normal conditions, if there can be such an expression for slavery, slaves were treated as todays gardeners, batlers or workers in fields with the exception that they had no civil rights.

The fact remains that homosexuality is a recent term and does not apply to ancient greeks. Period.

IF someone calls Alexander gay then that's a mistake but I saw not such thing in the movie.

What the movie shows is exactly what was written historically. IT hints at some man on man sex but it doesn't go anywhere near showing it. That kiss between Alexander and Bagoas doesn't mean they had sex or that they are going to have sex. Also Alexander saying that he loves Hephaestion doesn't mean that either.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Seems to me like, nowadays, 2 men having sex is nothing big, and viewed as a normal thing (or at least acceptable). Times havent changed.

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Or rather, they did change, and now they are changing back somewhat.

Anyone round here want to talk about EB....units, factions, map etc?

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Originally Posted by Idomeneas

I never said that im offended cause i m afraid that people would categorize today greeks as gay. Im offended cause some people (and yes even scholars can create ''grey'' areas) use ancient greek society to support and justify what they do in their personal lives or other interests. I clear that im not implying anything for the members here but im against the people who put those ''facts'' in their minds. Call them professors, books, sites or whatever.

About slavery issue yes greek was cool with that but slaves were not treated as animals but rather as servants who belonged to the house. Therefore was laws protecting them also from abuse. Unlike many societies n at the dawn of 20th century. Acts of cruelty were not recorded except Helots in Sparta (population control) who belong in a different category and some times war prisoners like the Athenians captured in Syracuses(acts of vengeance)
In normal conditions, if there can be such an expression for slavery, slaves were treated as todays gardeners, batlers or workers in fields with the exception that they had no civil rights.

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ΙΔΩΜΕΝΕΑ

There is no point of arguing about something that the other side is not willing to accept and has been taught in a certain way...
This is the link about the whole issue which is unfortunately in greek...

http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/f...omosexual.html

Hellenes

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There is no point of arguing about something that the other side is not willing to accept and has been taught in a certain way...

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ΑΥΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ. ΕΑΝ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΣΕΣ ΣΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΚΑΙ ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ΣΧΟΛΕΙΑ ΔΕΝ ΜΠΩΡΕΙΣ ΝΑ ΑΛΛΑΧΕΙΣ ΜΟΝΟ ΕΠΕΙΔΗ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΛΕΕΙ ΚΑΤΙ. ΓΙΑΥΤΟ ΘΑ ΥΠΑΡΧΟΥΝ ΠΑΝΤΟ ΙΔΙΩΤΕΣ.

I hadn't written in greek in a long time. Oh well that was good practice. It's good to keep the language alive. I think you agree.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

ΑΥΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ. ΕΑΝ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΣΕΣ ΣΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΚΑΙ ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ΣΧΟΛΕΙΑ ΔΕΝ ΜΠΩΡΕΙΣ ΝΑ ΑΛΛΑΧΕΙΣ ΜΟΝΟ ΕΠΕΙΔΗ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΛΕΕΙ ΚΑΤΙ. ΓΙΑΥΤΟ ΘΑ ΥΠΑΡΧΟΥΝ ΠΑΝΤΟ ΙΔΙΩΤΕΣ.

I hadn't written in greek in a long time. Oh well that was good practice. It's good to keep the language alive. I think you agree.

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ΚΑΛΑ ΛΕΩ ΝΑ ΜΙΛΗΣΟΥΜΕ ΑΓΓΛΙΚΑ ΑΦΟΥ ΟΙ ΑΛΛΟΙ ΔΕΝ ΚΑΤΑΛΑΒΑΙΝΟΥΝ
I believe we should post in English since nobody else understands...
The wholespread position was alawys that homosexuality was established in Ancient Greece and was even supported while this is far from the truth Its pointless to try to change that since it serves the now established order of acceptance and multiculturalism and multisexualism...

Hellenes

Hey you guys - where did you learn that? I'd like to as well. In my grad year I learned Anglo-Saxon Runes and me and my gf at the time wrote notes back and forth without the need to be secretive... I mean people would find the notes and couldn't read them anyway. Goood times.

Anyway, a few months ago when Alexander was released a magazine had an article in their newspaper concerning the Greek lawyers getting upset that Alexander was portrayed as less heterosexual as they assumed he was. Much to the rancour of some members on the forum I wrote the editor and got my letter published:

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He wasn’t even from Greece
In regards to the article “Was Alexander Gay?” (Dec. 2, the Martlet) I’d just like to point out something that should interest those Greek lawyers: Alexander was not Greek, he was Macedonian. He was born and raised in a Macedonian culture, looked down upon by the Greeks as barbarians from the north.
Their culture was undeniably influenced by the Greeks, but in ways largely similar to our American neighbours to the south. We wouldn’t call ourselves Americans, would we? And how would we like to be called American thousands of years in the future? I’m sure that the Macedonians of today don’t really enjoy having their main cultural hero being claimed by some other southern state. It’s unfortunate that the movie didn’t portray this properly either.
Garrett McNeill
Copyright © 2005 by Martlet Publishing Society
Last update: January 5th, 2005

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Hey you guys - where did you learn that?

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I grew up in Greece so I learned at school. I don't recommend you start now. It's very difficult. I don't think I would have learned if I didn't live there for so long.

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In regards to the article “Was Alexander Gay?” (Dec. 2, the Martlet) I’d just like to point out something that should interest those Greek lawyers: Alexander was not Greek, he was Macedonian. He was born and raised in a Macedonian culture, looked down upon by the Greeks as barbarians from the north.

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What ignorance! Colovion don't take any of that with a grain of attention. It's not worth anything. Macedonians are greek.

If you look at the architecture, language, religion, it's all 100% greek. Also their naems are greek. Alexander, Kassander. Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lisimachus. They all mean something in Greek.

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I’m sure that the Macedonians of today don’t really enjoy having their main cultural hero being claimed by some other southern state.

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No I guess the Slavs are better at being Macedonian then actual Greeks. Please Colovion, please don't take this guy seriously. He doesn't crap about greece.


On a different note. The Dorians came from what is now the Greek side of Macedon. So in a way all greeks are Macedonian from teh dawn of history.

If only all Greeks were Dorian...

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I don't recommend you start now. It's very difficult.

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I learnt it in a couple months and can fluently read and write now. But for what? I don't know the language -- yet. ~;)
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Good for you Mouzafphaerre. It's a great language to know. In my humble opinion the best language.

Hehe I never noticed this before but your name means "visitor" in Albanian. That's a funny coincidence. Or maybe not...

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If only all Greeks were Dorian...

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'
The Dorian tribe conqured all of southern greece and even some Islands. It's safe to say all greeks have Dorian blood.

Oh and the Spartans were Dorian. The Helots (or slaves) were the Achaians the original tribe of the Peloponese

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Originally Posted by hellenes

ΙΔΩΜΕΝΕΑ

There is no point of arguing about something that the other side is not willing to accept and has been taught in a certain way...
This is the link about the whole issue which is unfortunately in greek...

http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/f...omosexual.html

Hellenes

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Έλληνας είμαι φίλε

Εχουμε πολους Ελληνες σε αυτο το ουμπσαιτ. Εχουμε και ενα απο την Κρητη και ενα απο την Θεσσαλονικι. Εγω ζουσα στην Αθηνα οταν ειμουνα μικρος. Τωρα ομως ζω στον Καναδα. Εχω νοσταλγια για την Αθηνα. Ειναι πολυ ομορφη πολυ.

Sorry if i sound choppy but i haven't spoken in greek in a long time.

Please, if you want to write in greek, do it through PM.

lol, why should it be a PM? there are apparently several greek readers/writers in this thread already, is every post that's a direct reply supposed to be a PM? unless, of course, the mods specify that all posting should be in english. but that would be rather silly, imo.

Guys I think i have to say few things about Macedonians
1 Macedonians were Greeks. They belonged to the Dorian tribe wich called themselves sons of Hercules. Ancient Greeks didnt reffered to Dorian expansion as invasion but as RETURN of the sons of Hercules. [There are theories that Hercules wasnt a man as we think but an office. There are tales of Hercules traveling all over the world, if we accept that there is some fragments of truth in mythology then the reasonable explaination is that Hercules were many people. The name comes from Hera and Cleos=glory].
The ancient greeks as known were divided in Dorians Aiolians and Ionians/Achaians. Macedonians were Greek tribe but leaving upnorth they were cut out from the rest and were not so advanced. That doesnt make them another race. In scotland highlanders were considered less scotish than lowlanders? The reason why all these misunderstandings occur is the localistic mania of Greeks wich never stopped tearing them apart till nowdays. Our worst enemies are ourselves. Athenians vs Spartans, Spartans vs Argives, Phoceans vs Thebans etc. Macedonians were dorians and spoke greek. A local dialect of Greek. Like Spartans and all others. Offcourse many ''clever'' scholars who propably were taking ''packages'' under the table found an argument and said that a proof that Macedonians were not greek was that they were speaking another dialect. BOINGGG!!!! :dizzy2: Guys i dare any of you who knows greek to visit Crete, Ionian islands, Cyprus and villages in Aitoloakarnania. If you understand what the locals are saying to you I ll buy you beers until you drop down. Im from Athens and spend 14 months as soldiers in Cyprus and still dont understand them when they use their local expressions.
If they were not greek show me one plate with writing in this Macedonian Language these people reffer to.
Another proof of great importance is the incident before the battle of Platea. Long before Alexander the great. [by the way the name means invicted by men]. The king of the Macedonians Alexander the night before the battle secretely reached the Greek camp and warned them for the movements of the persians. He justified this risky act by saying that he had no choice but to collaborate with the persians since his open land didnt gave him the chance to defend it against the vast persian armies, but his heart hurts for his brother greeks cause he is greek also from ancient generation.

Thats the facts guys and its in Herodotus histories. All the names of Macedonians were Greek and all mean something if some people like to see few different expressions and grammar rules as different language then can they please answer why they do not think the same for Attic and Dorian dialect? For the grammar differences and letter substitutions like ''i'' for ''a''? for example Ή ΤΑΝ Ή ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ = Ή ΤΗΝ Ή ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ
By the time of Alexander Greece was under Macedonian hegemony why did they spreaded greek culture and language wherever they go they and their descendents? They owed any obligation to Greeks (if they were another race)
Why Alexander slaughtered the greek mercenaries who fought him against helping the persians as traitors of their race when he was spearring the lives of foreighners?

And one last thing. Greeks didnt look upon Macedonians as barbarians(strangers) . That was a propaganda set from the athenian Demosthenes who hated Phillip and was trying to do anything to unite southern greeks against him. You must understand that greeks were extremely localists. Thats why Rome conquered them so easy. Half of them was collaborating with romans to overwhelm the other half and reverse. As an example of ''closer'' times see the conquest of Ireland by the English. Divide and conquer. Ypo think if greeks had the national feeling high the romans would ever stand a chance? They were close to face destruction with Carthage and king Pyros, imaging if they were facing a unite greek world :charge:

Now as for some people who so desperately try to steal history scraps from other nations just to justify their existance and guide their peoples minds away from the poverty and difficulties they are facing every day, i pitty them. They should be proud for what THEY have and if they have nothing great they should think how to create. They should be ungry with the goverments that are telling them stories just for propaganda reasons. Russians are slavs, Polish are slavs, Serbs are slavs and nobody can say that they are not great people with great offer in world culture. Why people from Skopje try to denie their origin i can not understand, but this identity crisis is not healthy. They should read more, paint more, write more, sing more, create more. Thats how history is made. Not by stealing from others. The worst thing from being a thief is to be a bad thief.

Aaaaaargh!!!!
Where do you guys all come from?? Are you in a group of some kind that comes infesting all the forums about ancient history and strategic games with your Macedon vs Greeks feuds, or do Greeks and Macedons just wander at random around the internet? You had five posts at .org total, and you've already managed to find this thread. Nobody cares about your little quarrels except you and FYROMs. I was hoping that idiotic topic would stay away from EB forums, but it seems I was wrong.
It's guys like you who make it impossible to find any information about Macedonia on the web! WHO CARES? NOBODY. Have a war or something, just stop those pointless discussions!
Sorry, I'm normally a very peaceful and moderate person, but some things just throw me in a mad rage. It's like that 'were Dacians Thracians or were Thracians Dacians' debate. GAH.

Khel, if you feel this post is inappropriate, you can delete it.

Big_John, apparently, you haven't read that

Apart from that, it's a simple question of being polite and nice to other people. If you can't speak english and prefer to speak greek, then find a Greek RTW forum and don't bother us.

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Originally Posted by eadingas

Aaaaaargh!!!!
Where do you guys all come from?? Are you in a group of some kind that comes infesting all the forums about ancient history and strategic games with your Macedon vs Greeks feuds, or do Greeks and Macedons just wander at random around the internet? You had five posts at .org total, and you've already managed to find this thread. Nobody cares about your little quarrels except you and FYROMs. I was hoping that idiotic topic would stay away from EB forums, but it seems I was wrong.
It's guys like you who make it impossible to find any information about Macedonia on the web! WHO CARES? NOBODY. Have a war or something, just stop those pointless discussions!
Sorry, I'm normally a very peaceful and moderate person, but some things just throw me in a mad rage. It's like that 'were Dacians Thracians or were Thracians Dacians' debate. GAH.

Khel, if you feel this post is inappropriate, you can delete it.

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And you are ''wandering historian''? Look man this is whats the name of the thread ''Alexander realism....'' its a discussion thread not stricly about the mod technical stuff. Since when we need conversation police? If you think you dont like the things were discussing then quote with real argues or dont quote at all. Infest the forum? whats this? we should say only what you like ?or send the mail first to you to censor it? Since were talking history here its not bad to set few things in their place.

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Originally Posted by Idomeneas

And you are ''wandering historian''? Look man this is whats the name of the thread ''Alexander realism....'' its a discussion thread not stricly about the mod technical stuff. Since when we need conversation police? If you think you dont like the things were discussing then quote with real argues or dont quote at all. Infest the forum? whats this? we should say only what you like ?or send the mail first to you to censor it? Since were talking history here its not bad to set few things in their place.

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It is the EB forum. Conversations that have nothing to do with EB (whether they start out that way or not) have relatively little reason to take place here.

As I have said before, I welcome historical discussion. I do not welcome the introduction of political issues. It is beyond me why some people refuse to allow the people of another nation to come to their own conclusions about their past. I do not know why what someone else believes matters.

Regardless, conversations that turn heated over political issues will be shut down.

This was a discussion about Alexander: the Movie, and how it portrayed Alexander. There was no reason to bring the ethnicity of Macedonians in general into this, and no reason to continue this discussion. Kindly grind your axe elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

As I have said before, I welcome historical discussion. I do not welcome the introduction of political issues. It is beyond me why some people refuse to allow the people of another nation to come to their own conclusions about their past. I do not know why what someone else believes matters.

Regardless, conversations that turn heated over political issues will be shut down.

This was a discussion about Alexander: the Movie, and how it portrayed Alexander. There was no reason to bring the ethnicity of Macedonians in general into this, and no reason to continue this discussion. Kindly grind your axe elsewhere.

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I ll finish the issue here. I ll just say this. I agree that this is not the place for political discussions but i feel that i have to answer when somebody brings arguements with ahistorical basis. Maybe i got alittle carried away but im bored to be bombared from all media with these issues. Since i believe that this is a forum of people who not only love a pc game but also history, im extra sensitive when I read ahistorical things here. By the way im not completely new to this forum i just forgot my previous password, and certainly dont try to pass any kind of propaganda. Just the truth
thanks

Ιδωμενεα, ολο που πρεπει να κανεις ειναι να posts spam και μετα θα γινεις full member και θα μπορεις να ποστς στο backroom. Εκει μπορεις να μηλησεις γ'αυτα τα πραγματα. Για τωρα ομως πρεπει υρεμισουμε.

Η Μακεδονια ειναι ελληνικη. Οποιος δεν θελει να το αναγνορισει ειναι ιδιοτης.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Big_John, apparently, you haven't read that

Apart from that, it's a simple question of being polite and nice to other people. If you can't speak english and prefer to speak greek, then find a Greek RTW forum and don't bother us.

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i have read "that", and it regards the default forum language, and says nothing about non-english posting restrictions, clearly. why is it not "nice" to others to post in non-english? and how is it bothering you? obviously, that poster wasn't speaking to you, or me, or anyone else that can't read that script (and even if he were, the bother would be his, as he'd get no reply). it's just silly for that to get under one's skin imo. but whatever floats your boat man, take it easy.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Ιδωμενεα, ολο που πρεπει να κανεις ειναι να posts spam και μετα θα γινεις full member και θα μπορεις να ποστς στο backroom. Εκει μπορεις να μηλησεις γ'αυτα τα πραγματα. Για τωρα ομως πρεπει υρεμισουμε.

Η Μακεδονια ειναι ελληνικη. Οποιος δεν θελει να το αναγνορισει ειναι ιδιοτης.

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Well, the least you could do, when bad-mouthing anyone who disagrees with your point of view, and doing it in another language where they don't understand, is to use a derogatory word that doesn't sound exactly like the english word. That was priceless! It's too bad BigJohn posted right after that post too, saying it's silly to let things like folks posting in other languages get under your skin, with a terrific example of why it is uncool right above. :laugh: I knew there was a reason to keep this thread unlocked: Entertainment value. :laugh: