Army Lists

One addendum to that - It seems like a LOT of the cavalry shown so far has been very well armed with a variety of weapons. Typically mounted soldiers on about 2/3 of the continent seem to carry a horsebow, a lance and a sword. Depending on the situation they drop the lance or leave the bow cased.

Exceptions to this appear to be the easten nations. Illian, Tear, Cairhein, Andor and Mayene appear to come more from the school of thought about the glory of the charge. Murandy, Altara, Gheldean, Amadicia appear to be in between... some of them are strictly lancers... some lancers/horsebows. Tarabon, Domani, Borderlanders and Seanchan are almost all equipped with both lance and bow. That's my general feel at least...

I understand why Mat wants more archers, especially crossbowmen. I was playing Saturday and I set up my army across a bridge and I gave the enemy 3 times my number of units. I set up a defensive posture with 5 units of spearmen in the front of my army to protect my archers. All of the other units in my army were archers. It's amazing what happens when you have 15 units of 80 archers each firing at a unit as it tries to cross a bridge. After one volley from all 15 units, the unit crossing the bridge routed. The only units of the enemy able to cross the bridge before routing were horsemen (because of their speed) but they ran into my spears. If they tried to go around my spears, they were routing too by the time they took the second volley from all 15 units of archers.

I did see one problem though. I had 15 units with 80 archers each, so that's 1200 arrows flying for each volley loosed by my archers. The enemy units usually had around 80 men to start with, but my 1200 arrows only killed 40-50 men. It was enough to make them route, but it left me thinking that in real life, 1200 arrows fired at 80 men should have killed all of them. That's 15 arrows per enemy soldier. I should be able to kill more than 40-50 men per volley when I'm shooting 1200 arrows. So I think archers should have their attack increased and their accuracy increased.

If not all archer attacks increased, then at least the band of the red hand's archers to represent their faster firinig capability. Maybe leave normal archer units as is, but increase the Band's to do a lot more damage or something.

Just a thought.

I agree with that whole-heartedly. The numbers associated with missile troups needs to change substantially. In WoT, we often see missile units slaughtering enemies to the man when they are positioned properly. In RTW, that doesn't happen.

We'll need to do some serious overhaul on this if we can. We get some good info from Mat's ambushes on exactly how effective the crossbowmen and horse archers are at varying ranges.

Ideally, IMO, archers will be much more deadly than they are currently, but conversely be much worse at hand to hand combat. Even elite type units should have trouble switching from their missile weapon to thier melee weapon; that way archers will be countered the way they are in WoT. Namely, closing with them as quickly as possible. Nobody even contemplates standing still and waiting for them to exhaust their arrows in WoT... in RTW however, that's a viable strategy... that has to change.

I'm glad we agree SMZ.

I'd like to perhaps stop a debate before it begins. Before people start saying that archers would become too tough, remember that archers are only good in clear open areas with a clear sight of view of their enemy. Rain, snow, dust, etc. should be major factors in stopping archers, as well as hills, forests, etc.

So making archers more powerful doesn't ruin game balance.

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Even elite type units should have trouble switching from their missile weapon to thier melee weapon; that way archers will be countered the way they are in WoT. Namely, closing with them as quickly as possible. Nobody even contemplates standing still and waiting for them to exhaust their arrows in WoT... in RTW however, that's a viable strategy... that has to change.

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I disagree. I mean, the horse archers would certaintly do very well in melee, similar as how the steppe peoples were (which the Saladeans seem to be based after). But if you mean foot archers, than that makes sense.

yeah - I was speaking of foot archers predominantly

but even the horse archers should be weaker in melee than strait lancers - it should be enough of a difference that if the lancers do manage to close, they will have the advantage

Yeah, I'd agree. But they would not be pushovers, but bow/lancers often had lighter equipment, though not always (like the Kataphraktoi)...

Well archers should definitly have bigger acuraty and stronger attack.
I don't want to see 50 Two rivers archers firing at 80 advancing lightly armored soliders and only handful of them dying pe voley. TR archer are known for their ability to punch trought armor on on distance.
Generaly archers in RTW are too too waek.

Perrin also says a trained two rivers bowman can shoot 12 arrows a minute. I imagine people with smaller bows could shoot faster.

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Originally Posted by cdaulepp

Perrin also says a trained two rivers bowman can shoot 12 arrows a minute. I imagine people with smaller bows could shoot faster.

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I know that the guy who became the Prophet (Masema?) was making fun of Rand for having such a big bow (a club) because it would take to long to fire and you couldn't fire it from horse back. The long bow would also have longer range, though the Aiel bow should come close, then the horse bow (it being a composite recurve...)

One thing to consider is that although two rivers men can shoot up to 12 arrows in a minute, that does not portray their true combat effectiveness. For instance, if I told you to run as fast as you could, you'd prolly take off at 40 meter dash speed; but if I told you to go for an hour jog... you'd start off at a much more reasonable speed.

So while a longbowman could put 12 arrows in the air inside of a minute, in most combat situations he isn't going to do so; because he doesn't want to get tired ten minutes into the battle. My suggestion would be somewhere around 7 arrows per minute; otherwise a flight every 8 seconds.

The shortbows of various designs would probably increase their rate to 9 arrows per minute; otherwise a flight every 6 seconds.

Horsebows should use the same calculations as far as RoF as the longbow, because obviously the jostling induced by not being on ones own two feet reduces effectiveness somewhat. So a flight every 8 seconds.

Crossbows are markedly slower; optimal speed is around 6 bolts a minute. While firing a crossbow is not nearly as ardous as using a bow, it still takes energy; and the early forms of cocking mechanisms take a good bit of effort to use. So while the dropoff in prolonged firing rates will not be as sharp as in traditional bows, it's still there. I would suggest somewhere around 4.5 bolts per minute; otherwise a flight every 13 seconds.

The Trollocs don't have many archers, so I wouldn't expect them to be trained very well. I would suggest the higher number, with a flight every 8 seconds.

Obviously, these are averages, depending on whether the unit being trained is low-cost or high-cost; these numbers may be tweaked further...

Other considerations are range and power:

1. Effective range on a longbow is 500 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 1000 feet.
2. Effective range on an Aiel recurve bow is 350 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 700 feet.(In actuality composite bows could out-range longbows, but apparently their construction is slightly different or not as perfected among Jordan's Aiel as it was among Earth's steppe nomads; several remarks are made that the Aiel bows are powerful but not quite as good as longbows)
3. Effective range on a shortbow/horsebow is 250 feet. Deadly range is 50 feet. Long range is 500 feet.
4. Effective range on a crossbow is 350 feet. Deadly range is 150 feet. Long range is 550 feet. (The more direct line of fire from a crossbow means that the maximum range is reduced, while the deadly range is increased. A crossbow could fire a bolt much further if the bowman aimed at the sky so as to produce an arcing shot; but such an effort would waste most of the energy of the weapon and be largely ineffective. Crossbow bolts do not have nearly as much mass as arrows, and thus would not gain much impact force from such a shot.)
5. Effective range on a Trolloc bow is 300 feet. Deadly range is 100 feet. Long range is 600 feet.

And I know I left something out... please nobody mention it, some persons still haven't read KoD yet...

from where did you get the numbers?

(And where are you these days... haven't seen you online for ages;))

numbers are from my own experience with archery and sources I've found in libraries and online (I've always had an interest in ancient arms and armors)

one note: by "effective range" I mean the range at which a weapon can be aimed reliably by the average soldier. A longbow for instance can fire an arrow somewhere around 350 meters (1,500 feet about) at maximum range, but it would take an extraordinary archer to fire with anything approaching accuracy at that range... how this figures into game mechanics I'm unsure... I don't know how much we can play with the numbers?

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and I haven't had much time lately Andreas - sorry - I should have more soon - I'll be in touch :)

We can do alot with it... I'll look at it when I have time:)

And it's ok:)

Wilst you are talking about archers, firstly do the Trolloc's have archers?

If so could i suggest they be equally as deadly as T.R arrows but have a far reduced range. My reasoning behind this is simply that the steel for the arrow heads would have been cast at Shayol Ghul similarly to any other blade in the Trolloc's arsonell making the arrows extremly deadly.

The trollocs have a few archers... not many - but those are deadly. The reason being - Trollocs are a good deal larger than humans - and thus their arrows are more like small spears... so essentially it's like getting hit with a ballista bolt

Trolloc archers will be rare though, simply because its not a Trollocs prefered weapon...

Trolloc arrows are no where nere as powerful as you say, remeber that we have seen like what? 2,3 triangular scars in FACES, and IIRC Unos eye were atken out from an arrow. So they exist, but can't be that powerful for that many to have surrvived facial hits. And trolloc weapons are not cursed in the same way as Myrddraals, Lan sais that they might have traces of it, but not as much.

And IIRC, trollocs have small composite bows.

I coulda swore there was a passage somewhere that described the Trolloc arrows as being like small spears... iunno why several people have survived - but getting hit with a small spear in the face is going to hurt...

and wordums at the lack of a cursing - the myrddraal blades receive a special process to curse them - and it causes the blades to decay after a time... It's been noted recently even that with the lack of captives not even all Myrddraal have been able to get equipped with their special blades

There is a passage about trolloc arrows, when Perrin gets hit by one in the woods in the Two Rivers.

The think that I remember about them is that they are viciously barbed. I'll see if I can look it up.

It is because the trolloc blades are forged at the tribe holds or what they call them, not at Shayol Ghul that they aren't tainted... and yes, the perrin passage. He survives a close shot, so it isn't that powerful. I TR bow would have crushed the bone.

Perhaps the bow is inferior(well it probably would be compared to an Aiel or a longbow, but compared to all)? It is hard work making a good bow and I wouldn't bet the Trollocs would be able to make a good one.

"The Shadow Rising"

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Originally Posted by Chapter 40 "Hunter of Trollocs"

A ram-horned Trolloc leaped into the open twenty paces away, raising a long curved bow. Perrin drew fletchings to ear and fired in one smooth motion, reaching for another shaft as soon as his arrow cleared bow. His broadhead point took the Trolloc between its eyes; it bellowed once as it fell.

And its arrow, the size of a small spear, took Perrin in the side like a hammerblow.

Gasping with shock, he hunched over, dropping bow and fresh arrow alike. Pain spread out in sheets from the black-fletched shaft; it quivered when he drew breath, and every quiver shot out new pain.

Two more Trollocs leaped over their dead companion, wolf snout and goat horns, black-mailed shapes half again as tall as Perrin and twice as broad. Baying, they rushed at him, curved swords upraised.

Forcing himself upright, he gritted his teeth and snapped the thumb-thick arrow off short,...

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Originally Posted by Chapter 41 "Among the Tuatha'an"

"Barbed," Ihvon said in a conversational tone. "Trollocs do not use bows very often, but when they do the arrows are barbed."

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We see later that the arror is "just below" Perrin's last rib, so that's why it didn't break the bone; it didn't hit the bone. Perrin describes it like getting hit with a hammer. We've seen Perrins resistence to pain before; not much fazes him. But this made him double over in involuntary pain, and drop his weapons. Only the memory of his wife being in danger inabled him to return to the battle, and he says the pain was constantly pulsing thru him.

He describes the arrow as being "thumb-thick" and the "size of a small spear" and says the Trolloc had a "long curved bow".

Iunno... but an arrow that seems like a "hammerblow" seems powerful enough to me. I would agree that the Trollocs probably aren't the best craftsmen, but all of their equipment is effective, from their scyth-swords to their barbed tridents, hooked spears and spiked axes. I don't suppose their few bows would be any different.

EDIT: and I edited my recommendations for the numbers about archery...

Still, three shienarans has taken those arrows in their faces... it's inferior to the TR bow at least....

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Originally Posted by Andreas

triangular scars in FACES, and IIRC Unos eye were atken out from an arrow. .

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maybe aiel dun it???

That was my impression to, although I'm by no means certain. I was flicking through The Great Hunt briefly and couldn't find anything, but I could have sworn that Masema, at least, gained his triangular scar fighting in eastern Shienar against Aiel raids over the Dragonwall rather than against Shadowspawn.

Personally, my impression is that Trolloc archers are rare but existent, and that Trolloc bows aren't superpowerful semi-ballistas or anything, but they would be like any other Trolloc weapon: Large, heavy, powerful and painful but also brutish, lacking any kind of sophistication or finesse either in it's construction or the way it is used.

Antagonist

Yes, I think you right if you consider the amoun of force needed to draw a long bow fully and the amount of energy a man is capable of building up,

Compare it with the energy a trolloc who can wrestle with ogier could used to draw a bow and i think thats where the power for the hammer like blow came from.

I havent read the eye of the world in along time but I had though the wound Tam takes was from a trolloc blade not a Myrddraals but it required healing.

Would check this up but I dont have the first 3 books with me at the moment

naw - it's likely Tam was wounded in killing the Myrddraal... why else would it not have tracked down and killed Rand while he was carrying his "dad" toward town?

The myrddraal got stopped somehow... Tam's a blademaster - it would seem likely he did it.

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on my list I put the Trolloc bow as inferior to the Aiel bow and the longbow - because I assume as said - that humans are better craftsmen - I put it as better than the average shortbow however - just because it's a much larger weapon... but while the range of the weapon is probably reduced from poor fletching, slightly crooked arrow shafts, inferior bow staves, etc... the killing power of it is still probably good - so in game terms - their attack should be pretty high... it would afterall be equivelant to a shower of javilins...

Tam took the wound from a trolloc, who had a blade that had something of the curse, but not the full thing, Lan's word at the inn. He also said, that íf a Myrddraal had done it, Tam would'nt made it to town. Remember the aiel in Andor, rescuing the wonder girls from three myrddraal. They took smaller wounds, but not even Nyn could heel them. And Narg says that he will wait for the others to come back with the Myrddraal...

And the aiel have normal arrowheads, trollocs have the triangular versions.

but the list is pretty good now, I guess;)

It's good thing we have you on the team :)

I should remember to argue with you less - lol