If you are going with what the factions called themselves, and they themselves minted coins with a particular name on it, I would have to agree that we should use that name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shigawire
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If you are going with what the factions called themselves, and they themselves minted coins with a particular name on it, I would have to agree that we should use that name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shigawire
As I said in my earlier post, this is not about whether the Seleucids were a Kingdom or an Empire, rather it's about Arche=Empire, but what the hell lets give it a bash anyway :gossip: ~D
It would be very hard to decide between Kingdom and Empire, especially for the later since any short Corsican, megalomaniac, or little King could proclaim himself Emperor; sources referring to them as an Empire may well have been influenced by political, financial or just plain sycophantic reasons. We all know that ancient writers were capable of all of the above- not unlike contemporary ones…- and that they were quite prone to exaggeration; but in the final analysis if the Seleucids were an Empire they would’ve had to have an Emperor, and to my knowledge there is no reference of any Seleucid ruler being called thus. :mellow:
Translations can be so tricky.. as this discussion is in English, by “King” we all understand that it can be translated to Greek as Vasileus and one can live with it, [the letter of Antigonus to his son Demetrius referring to him as “ Vasileus Demetrius” (δοτικη) can of course complicate things..] but when it comes to Emperor… ahh, that’s a different kettle of fish :mask: .. to quote from Epistolary Richard’s post,“ we all know the word Empire is derived from Emperor, which comes from the Latin Imperator which was originally used to solely to describe a General” but ( I’ve started to really hate the word “but” :tongue: lol) in Greek, Emperor >Autokrator means Self Ruler and has nothing to do with a General per se,- even though very often he was originally a General- so although we converse in the same language we might understand things quite differently. ~;)
Of course, they did call themselves a Kingdom and the rulers of the realm Kings, but from ancient to contemporary times, for one- as a rule- to be King must be born of a King [never mind the Ελεω Θεου (by the grace of God) nonsense] so the Diadochoi, been merely Alexander’s generals had no legitimate reason to call themselves Kings. :shrug: One can say that a King can be an Emperor, but an Emperor could never become a King. You either got Royal Blood or, so sorry, no cigar ~:cheers: Wow!! am a poet!! ~:thumb: :laugh3:
Lets make a few suppositions: if we accept that one cannot be King unless his daddy was a King, then the Seleucids could not have been a Kingdom even though they did call themselves so and others accepted them as such; on the other hand, if the Carthage > Tsorim reasoning of “that’s what they called themselves” applies, then they should be called a Kingdom or else inconsistency rears its ugly head..
Since we don’t really know whether the sources referring to the Seleucids as an Empire did so as praise saying that it was as grand and mighty as an Empire, even though it was known as a Kingdom at the time, or used it as a derogatory term implying that it was not a “legitimate” Kingdom, therefore was actually an Empire; so if we accept its Kings were not “legitimate”, then it should have indeed be an Empire, but (grr.. that word again.. :skull: ) an Empire without an Emperor cannot an Empire be… :eeeek:
In conclusion: six of one and half dozen of the other… :lost: and am getting dizzy… :dizzy: ~:dizzy: :fainting: lol
Now let’s get to the main point. :smash:
To quote Epistolary Richard again: “Given that Empire from a latin word which didn't even have the same meaning in this period as it does today, I think we should trust that the Ancient Greek phrase used conveys the nature of the Seleucid state just as accurately, if not more so, than any of the alternatives.”
Since the case for Kingdom or Empire can be argued ad nauseam, IMHO the decision by EB to call them an Empire is quite valid; however, the choice of the word Arche-APXH to mean Empire, I do not- with all due respect- believe it is; even if we accept ~:mecry: Arche=Empire :bigcry:I believe that the grammar is incorrect in Arche Seleukeia, as it should be: Η Σελευκεια >Της Σελευκειας (γενικη indeed Indomeneas :wink3: ). I have no idea as how to convey this in English so if I may try to paraphrase very very roughly :embarassed: : Arche=Empire, who’s Empire? Seleukeia’s = Arche SeleukeiaS. :sweatdrop: :help:
Even though I do not accept the validity of Arche=Empire I might of course be wrong :shame: :charming: , so it would be enormously appreciated if someone presents more direct evidence of Arche=Empire, links and all if possible. Please keep in mind that we don’t all have access to the materials you scholars have ~:)
:thinking2: ~:idea: :jumping:
Now I am going to suggest the use of another word instead of Arche (and I have no doubt that you guys have already thought of it), then RUN LIKE HELL!! ~:eek: :uhoh2:
:drummer: :drummer: :drummer: :drummer:
KRATOS
:oops: :scared: :rifle: Runiiiiiiiiiing…….. ~:wave:
And_Still_Remaining_In_Awe :bow:
O_Stratigos
Impressive!
By the way, you really love those smilies don't you? :tongue2:
Just so you know... though the pronunciation of the letter 'Beta' in Modern Greek is 'V', that is due to the process known as "palatalization." In classical Greek, they pronounced 'Beta' as 'B.'
Yes, thank you :book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Main_table,
http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/h...an/grkphon.htm, since I am no scholar I just try to keep things as simple as possible for everyone reading this thread, myself included!! :beam:
O_Stratigos :bow:
Great websites o_megas.
To clarify which part of speech we are using for words in the name of the faction: Seleukeios, -a, -on is the adjective "Seleukid". Indeed Arche (fem, sing., nom.) needs Seleukeia to modify it correctly. What is being requested here by o megas is the fem., sing., genitive form of the noun that means Seleukeia, the smaller region, which does not refer to the whole of their realm. This would give us "Empire of (the area called) Seleukeia". The only other option along these same lines would be Arche Seleukidon ("'Arche' of the Seleukids"). We thought the use of the adjective (agreeing with its modified noun) would be better than the genitive plural form "of the Seleukids".
I actually didn't even vote for Arche Seleukideia (though I gave it as one of the ten possibilities I put forth for the vote), but it got more votes, and I think the other folks were right about it upon reflection.
@ Teleclos Archelaou
Please forgive my ignorance, but after reading your post 3-4 times I still don’t understand what you are saying… :embarassed: obviously my English is as bad as my Greek!! ~D I would really appreciate if you can explain it in plain English. ~:)
What I hope you are NOT saying- in part- is that, if Malta conquered all the Mediterranean countries, then it couldn’t be called the Maltese Empire because Malta is too small… ~:eek: :embarassed:
Anyway, I have to go away until tomorrow, but what really worries me is your silence about that cursed world Arche… maybe the deed is done and Arche is going to stay; :bigcry: if so please let me know so I can begin my lamentation… :wall: and I DO mean lamentation.. my 1000 word lamentation… unless you ask for mercy... :grin: lol
Quote: “I actually didn't even vote for Arche Seleukideia (though I gave it as one of the ten possibilities I put forth for the vote), but it got more votes, and I think the other folks were right about it upon reflection”.
Hmm.. am not so sure I believe you are considering this: “1.138. The verbal plays on arche cannot be coincidental:[49] the Athenian arche ('empire') is echoed in the arche ('archonship') of Themistokles, which is seen as the arche ('beginning') of Athenian might” and it is also echoed in Teleklos Archelaou … :evilgrin: ~D
Delusions of Immortality along with an Immortal Mod? :laugh4: ~:joker:
O_Stratigos :bow:
Let me try to explain, for I did understand...
Seleukeios | Suleukeia | Seleukeion
This is the nominativus adjective, which translated into English means 'Seleukid'. It is not possessive, like the genitivus. Rather, it describes a word.
In English, that would equate to 'cool' relating to 'water'. So, in 'cool water', 'cool' is the adjective.
Since 'Arche' is a feminine word, we use the feminine nominativus form of the adjective, which is the middle word above. So, translated, that should give us 'Seleukid Empire'.
Continuing my little example, 'water' is a nominativus. Therefore, in ancient Greek, that would mean the adjective would have to be a nominativus as well. And, just as well in ancient Greek, it should also be of the same sex as the word it is connected to. Therefore, we use 'Seleukeia' since 'Arche' is feminine.
Now, that was the grammatics. The meaning of 'Arche' I leave to the real Greek linguists, for I dropped Greek in favor of Latin two years ago...
~Wiz
impressive for a dutchmen.tough english grammar is not my strongpoint.
still very impressive. ;) i dropped both, couldnt stand the boredom. maybe it was my teacher. altough i found greek easier than Latin, since i understood the alfabet perfectly (mind you im using the past-form), i still sucked at both
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
I dropped Greek and Latin in favor of sex even before... ~;p
Oh, don't begin -- you're reminding me of my gay Latin teacher.
Bah, too late.
But, let me get this straight. You like sex whilst following courses? :0
~Wiz
Team work is important. ~:joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
gay latin teacher? not so bad. my (ex-)teacher is as old as the language. the damn bitch
Not bad. Not many can have a Latin native teacher... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by jerby
:'D yeah i know. but I swear to god that woman was born in anticuaty. the looks likes she is about to vaporiza and turn in to dust...
The Wizard: Thank you for the easy explanation, obviously your grammatical knowledge is far superior to mine, ~:) but I always took Seleukeia to be fem. as a given; that’s why I wrote in one of my other posts; Quote: “Η Σελευκεια >Της Σελευκειας (γενικη indeed Indomeneas ). I have no idea as how to convey this in English so if I may try to paraphrase very very roughly : Arche=Empire, who’s Empire? Seleukeia’s = Arche SeleukeiaS” :balloon2:
Maybe I should’ve been more specific about what I don’t understand in Teleklos Archelaou’s post, so here it is: “What is being requested here by o megas is the fem., sing., genitive form of the noun that means Seleukeia, the smaller region, which does not refer to the whole of their realm.” What have I "requested", what is “Seleukeia, the smaller region” and what “which does not refer to the whole of their realm” means in this context? ~:confused: ~:eek:
Now, this is interesting.. ~;p Teleklos Archelaou again:“The only other option along these same lines would be Arche Seleukidon ("'Arche' of the Seleukids" so, if Arche Seleukeidon was an option and obviously you followed this: Oi Seleukeis (des?), Ton (omega) Seleukeidon (omega), doesn’t also this follow: H Seleukeia, Tis (eta) Seleukeias?!?! or is my Greek grammar really that rusty… :embarassed: :wall:
Anyway, never mind all this “trivia” ~D :devilish: lol, what about da big kahuna, da big mofo “ARCHE” is he still Da Man or should I say Da Woman since its fem... ~D :whip: :grin2: lol
O_Stratigos :bow:
PS: O_Megas is my nephew and he used my email address to register here some time ago, so I post using my TWC nick. Since he never posted and he is now in Greece, is there a way to change the registration from O_Megas to O_Stratigos? Thank you. ~:)
Ok... one last time...
Seleukeia is an adjective. Therefore it does not need to be possessive and therefore your request for a possessive form (genitivus) is void.
And regarding the thing about your proposition not referring to their entire realm; Teleklos is right. Your suggestion only refers to the area around the Seleukid capital of Seleukeia, in Mesopotamia. What we use refers to their entire realm.
~Wiz
Quote:“Seleukeia is an adjective. Therefore it does not need to be possessive and therefore your request for a possessive form (genitivus) is void.”
I submit that the syntax is correct – even if in meaning is slightly off – and humbly stand corrected. :2thumbsup: :bow:
Quote:“And regarding the thing about your proposition not referring to their entire realm; Teleklos is right. Your suggestion only refers to the area around the Seleukid capital of Seleukeia, in Mesopotamia. What we use refers to their entire realm.” ~:confused:
This one, I don’t know.. why does Arche Seleukeia refers to the whole realm, whereas Arche Seleukeias- ending with S- would refer only to a particular (small?) place? If you could elaborate on this- if is not too much trouble- I will be really grateful :charming: ~:)
Quote:“Ok... one last time...”
Maybe a bit more tolerance towards us-non-scholars-laymen-just-trying-to-understand-better-learn-something-and-if-posible-help-in-a-tiny-mini-lil-way-hoping-not-to-encounter-omnipotence, would be a good thing.. :sad: :disappointed:
O_Stratigos :bow:
ok, i think what teleklos and the wizard are trying to say is that "arche seleukeias" would refer to a small area, specifically the area around the city of seleukeia, whereas "arche seleukeia" is referring to the group of people (the seleukids).
a hypothetical analogy: let's say the australia is an empire. the suggestion of "arche seleukeias" is would be like calling australia "The Empire of Canberra", whereas "arche seleukeia" is akin to "The Australian Empire". don't know if that's accurate, because i don't speak or read a lick of greek, but i think that's what teleklos and the wizard are saying.. i think..
hmm.. that's probably more confusing than anything else.. nevermind. :no: :shrug:
In short: the Seleukids - the ruling dynasty - has formed the Empire. Not inhabitants of region of Seleukeia.
In circle: the Seleukids- the ruling dynasty-has formed the Empire. Not inhabitants of region of Seleukeia which was named after the ruling dynasty, namely the Seleukids :dizzy2: :juggle:Quote:
In short: the Seleukids - the ruling dynasty - has formed the Empire. Not inhabitants of region of Seleukeia.
Please read my question again:It seems that you acept that Arche SelukeiaS- ending in S- means the region of Selukeia or its inhabitans; whereas what I ask is "why is it so". ~:) ~:cheers:Quote:
why does Arche Seleukeia refers to the whole realm, whereas Arche Seleukeias- ending with S- would refer only to a particular (small?) place?
O_Stratigos :bow:
Not such. The inhabitants of the region were never called that way, at least then. Seleukid, as Atreid, Nereid, Lagid, etc... are genitive person-related names that refer to the descendants and relatives of one important person -real or fictional. A Seleukid is a member of Seleukos's family, that is, a member of the founding dinasty. The Ptolemaic kings were also known as Lagids because of being descendants of Ptolomeo Lagos.Quote:
Originally Posted by o_megas
We, for extension, apply it to territory and people, but is in fact a term related to the ruling dinasty.
The inhabitants of Seluekeia, in modern English, should be named Seleukeians, and use a place-related term in Greek. Seleukid is not.
What I say hereis in responce to the post by eadingasQuote:
In circle: the Seleukids- the ruling dynasty-has formed the Empire. Not inhabitants of region of Seleukeia which was named after the ruling dynasty, namely the Seleukids
merely pointing out that this was- as presented- a circular argument, not expressing an opinion on the matter; that's why I didn't make any other comment and went on to ask for my question to be read again.. ~;)Quote:
In short: the Seleukids - the ruling dynasty - has formed the Empire. Not inhabitants of region of Seleukeia.
O_Stratigos :bow:
You have received more helpful and polite attempts to explain and make clear two words than any other thread I have ever seen in a total war forum. These have been your only posts on any matter. Posting smiley-laden tomes on the same two words over and over while numerous people have tried to explain things shows who is being tolerant here. Your attempt to paint the EB members here and the non-members who have tried to explain things as being intolerant is not appreciated (by myself at least), whether Arche Seleukeia is right or wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by o_megas
OK... After reading all this thread I would suggest to take a more pragmatic approach: use the term that was used in the period in greek diplomatic letters or books or something... There are sources on the Internet for someone fluent in ancient greek, so if some of you is up to the job it is better to go there and take a look.
Personally I doubt, that in those days people called the country an empire. In casual talking most likely it might have been Seleukeia or something ,but even for a non-greek speaker Arche Seleukeia sounds artifical.
Ok Αρχή Σελεύκεια is not wrong but rather poetic. It should be Σελεύκεια Αρχή.
Just to set things right about greek....
what happened to shigawire's coins? is there comparable evidence for "arche" (vs "basileia")?
We are having an internal discussion about the name, and as such have moved Shigawire's post to the appropriate place.
I think Arche is fine. It's not worth it to second-guess yourselves over something that has already been decided.