Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.
It is in the report you posted , enclosure 1 , page 2, section 1,a,5 .
Its another one where "We found no evidence of further investigation into the incident"
How can they call it a confirmed incident if they have no evidence from an investigation ? Likewise how can they call other incidents unconfirmed when they also have no evidence from an investigation ?
Are they just guessing or tossing a coin to decide if incidents count as confirmed or unconfirmed ?
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
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Each physical copy of the book printed is a miracle? It's not the message that's contained within? Is the message meaningless without the paper and binding?
Yes each physical copy. Because each copy is a perfect copy of the original, and therefore is God's exact word. That is the first miracle, it being God's word. The second is that Muhammed, who was illiterate, wrote much of the Quran down. So the fact that it even exists in a written form is a miracle. Also the fact that the Quran removes the need for any further prophets, because it is believed that previous prophets had their message corrupted (Abraham, Isaac, Ishmeal, Solomon, the whole lot from Judeo-Christian tradition, and depending on how liberal a Muslim the Buddha, Lao-Tzu, and Krishna, ect).
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And whats the bible? It seem nothing more than toilet paper to some Muslims. Of copurse its always fair game on christianity but heaven forbid you even hint at anything bad about Muslims.
Of course the Bible is nothing more than toliet paper to some Muslims, so is the Baghavad Gita, and Analects. And to some Christians the Quran, the Torah(go figure) and the Vedas are not better. Everyone has bigots, lets not use them as the standard.
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Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.
Were they pissed off? You bet remember the dark ages?
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How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do.
1) The 'oh poor us, the dirty mean people did it to us first' is getting old. 2) Was the Crucifix dunked in urine in an attempt to force a Catholic who had been locked up in a prison without contact with the outside world and who may not even have commited a crime to confess or to break them? If modern artists have that kind of power we are all doomed.
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Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag?
YES! Haven't you ever heard of the Caliphates, Muhammed ruled an Islamic state. But the state broke up and has been replaced with a number of countries that claim to be Islamic.
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It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains. Would we protest. Most likely. Would we run wild in the streets killing people? I doubt it.
The Bible is not as important to Christians as the Koran is to Muslims. When Jesus was killed did Christians run in the street and kill people? No, but did they latter? Hell yes. And don't act all holy and say that Christians would not grow at all violent.
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
For the record: As a muslim, I don't really care what the US military does to the Quaran they might have got their hands on. If there was any abuse of ANY prisoner at ANY time, then I get upset.......
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
All is fair in love and war. Get Captured. Get Abused. Get Killed. Flush a Koran down the toilet. Use the Bible as Toilet Paper. Put American Flags in piles of dog poop... doesn't really matter, it's intent is all the same. To Upset the other side, all of this eye-for-an-eye bullshit is really boring and indecent. I bet if everyone stopped caring, there'd be no war... or insighting of terrorism of any sort. I understand why the average Muslim gets upset about something like this, the Koran, their faith for the most part, is all that they have... I remind you, that it wasn't that terribly long ago when Christians were at the exact same place. When you have nothing, what else is their to hold onto except faith or hope and to destroy or insult it, is insulting to everyone who believes in it. The reason why there wasn't a Christian outcry over the Terrorists at the Church of Nativity using the bible as toilet paper makes sense, Christians in general, especially Christians living in the Western World have more material possessions and therefore aren't nearly as dogmatic as those of Muslims or people with little material wealth. I think many Christians treat their faith as an incoveniance, but as long as they follow it, they will get into heaven. One of my neighbors in Colorado is an extremely faithful maybe even overly Zealous Christian, who loves his religion dearly, and follows it almost as T, but in all reality he's just using it as a cover for his own indecency, I mean the guy is a state auditor who puts people out their jobs, destroys families, and steals from the tax-payers, but he thinks as long as he goes to Church every sunday its okay for him to do what he does on a daily basis. Maybe getting a bit off topic... but my point is, So the hell what! this is how it is, and it won't change... just look the other way.
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.
It is in the report you posted , enclosure 1 , page 2, section 1,a,5 .
Its another one where "We found no evidence of further investigation into the incident"
How can they call it a confirmed incident if they have no evidence from an investigation ? Likewise how can they call other incidents unconfirmed when they also have no evidence from an investigation ?
Are they just guessing or tossing a coin to decide if incidents count as confirmed or unconfirmed ?
Your reaching there Tribesman the report clearly describes the incident as a confirmed incident with sufficient information to confirm that it was an event that was considered abuse of the Koran. This investigation was not a criminal investigation where the information was going to be used for a criminal prosecution of the individuals involved. It was done to determine if the allegation of abuse of the koran happen or did not happen and is a report of the findings of the officer in charge of the investigation. It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
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(5) On 15 AUG 03, two detainees complained to the swing shift guards (1400-2200 hrs) that the detainees’ Korans were wet because the night shift guards had thrown water balloons on the block. The swing shift guards recorded the complaints in the block blotter log in accordance with normal procedures. We have not determined if the detainees made further complaints or if the Korans were replaced. There is no evidence that this incident was investigated. There is no evidence that the incident, although clearly inappropriate, caused any type of disturbance on the Block. We consider this a confirmed incident.
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
So if a detainee makes an allegation and the allegation is written down then it is a confirmed incident even if it wasn't investigated ?
Nope thats really lost me there , so if a detainee made an allegation over an incident that didn't happen it would still be a confirmed incident as long as a guard wrote it down , and if a detainee made an allegation over a real incident and the guard didn't write it down it would be unconfirmed incident ?
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
So if a detainee makes an allegation and the allegation is written down then it is a confirmed incident even if it wasn't investigated ?
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened. Having filled out blotter records a few times myself - they are viewed as official records of events that happened.
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Nope thats really lost me there , so if a detainee made an allegation over an incident that didn't happen it would still be a confirmed incident as long as a guard wrote it down , and if a detainee made an allegation over a real incident and the guard didn't write it down it would be unconfirmed incident ?
Thats not what it states at all - nor is it what I stated.
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened.
Yes , but should such accusations , which have had widespread ramifications , be investigated on the assumption that a guard may have conducted an informal investigation ?
Are guards in anyway qualified to conduct an impartial investigation , formal or informal ?
But as (if you recall) my post first stated "we found no evidence of further investigation into the incident".
Why was there no follow up investigations at the time into the alledged incidents (apart from those incidents where the allegations were brought up during interrogations) ?
There are plenty of mentions in the report of sworn contemporanious statements from the guards concerning detainees abusing the Koran , but they do seem to lack slightly when the shoe is on the other foot .
Re: FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened.
Yes , but should such accusations , which have had widespread ramifications , be investigated on the assumption that a guard may have conducted an informal investigation ?
I think your trying to mix your arguements together. This instance of koran mis-handling or descration (SP) as confirmed by a blotter entry concerning the "water ballon" causing the Koran to become wet because of actions of guards - supports that American servicemembers functioning as guards did something that warranted a founded conclusion of abuse.
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Are guards in anyway qualified to conduct an impartial investigation , formal or informal ?
Sure they are - I believe anyone that is not partial is able and qualified to conduct an informal investigation. Do you find it easier to believe baised views of news reporters as valid reports on items, verus a guard who simply performs his duty and annotates in the record that something happened?
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But as (if you recall) my post first stated "we found no evidence of further investigation into the incident".
Are you now trying to state that the simple annotation in a journal is not enough to show or prove that the alledge abuse did indeed happen in the instance that your brought forth.? Because that is now what it seems to me that you are trying to state. So what is the deal - you find the simple truth of at least two duty bound soldiers to be unbelivable even though they state that the descration of the Koran happened in this instance?
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Why was there no follow up investigations at the time into the alledged incidents (apart from those incidents where the allegations were brought up during interrogations) ?
Don't know the answer - nor do I pretend to know. What is known is that an investigation has been conducted and the findings posted for all to see - is that an action of an individual - ie the officer who did the report - who is attempting to hide information? Does an annotation of possible abuse of a document warrant a follow-up investigation if the guard annotated that it happened and was reported in an official document?
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There are plenty of mentions in the report of sworn contemporanious statements from the guards concerning detainees abusing the Koran , but they do seem to lack slightly when the shoe is on the other foot .
Lets see so we are now suppose to discount the 9 confirmed cases of Koran abuse by American Guards? Because the investigation into the Alledged flushing of the Koran into the Toliet need the guards to have sworn statements. If the guards would of just stated that they did not flush the Koran would that statify you that they were stating the truth, or does a sworn statment carry more weight?
