There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
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There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
Not all Middle Easterners hate America. And I think it's far more selfish for such a rich country too spend money on new ways of killing people as opposed to saving inoccent lives, than for people to object to a country that exists on where they and their forefathers lived who still persecute them.Quote:
Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally? Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?
Well it is certaintly a lot better now than it used to be, from what I understand.Quote:
LOL - another one from outside the United States showing their ignorance of the Reservation systems for each tribe here in the United States.
Maybe they wouldn't think so badly of you if it weren't for all those Made in America pieces of shrapnel they've been pulling out of their kids bodies for the last few decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
If the Mexicans were beating up on you using Mirage fighters, Leclerc tanks and FAMAS rifles, all paid for by the French, and you were busy pulling pieces of steel out of your kids body that read "Fabrique en France", I can't imagine that you'd been sending Jacques Chirac a Father's Day card anytime soon. And if the Eiffel Tower fell down, my guess is you'd crack open a bottle of JD and call your buddies over for a BBQ.
Many of the other Arab countries are as guilty of neglect towards the palestinians as everybody else. You can't rely on most of them for anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
I was using it as an example, if the native Americans asked for their own country, completely independent of the US, you would not do it. No country would it.Quote:
LOL - another one from outside the United States showing their ignorance of the Reservation systems for each tribe here in the United States.
All countries are imperial (from the Latin word imperium meaning power to command, authority, command, rule, control), they want power and influence and giving up any amount of land/taxpayers/manpower would weaken them, so they will not do it.
We seem to be on different wavelengths.Quote:
There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.
I am saying help people develop their country and they will be your friends.
You are thinking barbarians demanding loot.
Quote:
There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.
I guess the barbarian thing sprang into my mind when I think of the splattered body parts of women and children all over the sidewalk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
Helping people develop their country is something I would agree with, but helping your enemies develop the potential to do more damage is not wise. One would think by that logic that the Saudi's would be our friends but they clearly are not. Money and development don't have much to do with it, IMO. Nations that we have treated poorly remain our friends and allies and others who we have lavished with gifts remain our enemy. We can at best buy governments but not the friendship of the people. I personally don't think there are any easy answers and our chequebook certainly isn't one of them.
Is that from a Israeli air strike or Palestinian suicide bomber?Quote:
I guess the barbarian thing sprang into my mind when I think of the splattered body parts of women and children all over the sidewalk.
They are as bad as each other.
What you do is conquer the country, then invest in a strong welfare state to help the people. America has the conquering bit done in Iraq, but has banned nationalised industries, so the Iraqi people will never see the benefit of having lots of oil. It will be like Saudi.Quote:
We can at best buy governments but not the friendship of the people. I personally don't think there are any easy answers and our chequebook certainly isn't one of them.
According to the BBC website the UAE invested oil-money into a welfare state and they seem to be doing well.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...les/737620.stm
You would be incorrect in part - while not nations in the concept of National Governments - the Federal government must ask permission to enter the Reservation to do anything, and the Reservations can and often do establish their own laws, regulations, and enforcement agencies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
http://www.cherokee.org/
Maybe the Palenstine Authority should establish something along the lines of the Native American Reservation Systems.
And I guess this means you are in 100% support of Israel regardless of its actions.Quote:
All countries are imperial (from the Latin word imperium meaning power to command, authority, command, rule, control), they want power and influence and giving up any amount of land/taxpayers/manpower would weaken them, so they will not do it.
No. I was stating a fact. I do not like it, but it seems to be true.Quote:
And I guess this means you are in 100% support of Israel regardless of its actions.
To early to call what the government of Iraq is going to be like - but with a democracy elected government - its doubtful it will be like Saudi Arabia. Maybe something good - maybe something bad. But Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy where the ruling family uses religion to oppress their own people, and encourages hate toward their western allies to direct the anger of the populace toward something else beside regime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
And as the banning of nationalized industries - one you will have to show where the banning of any state owned industry has been done, where the banning of any Iraqi citizen from owning industry within the nation of Iraq has been ordered and done, and where such a ban is a permant thing. Otherwise your statement is just rethoric to be read and applied based upon the know facts of the situation.
If all nations are Imperial in design then the citizens of nations can not protest the actions of any nation - because the national government is always acting within the scope of the concept in which you wrote of. If you believe all national governments are Imperial in design - then you by default are supportin such measures that Israel has taken to protect its interests within its own borders - and the terrorities that were seized as a result of warfare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
It is in the Iraqi contituntion. They are not allowed to nationalise any industry.
I will try to find something about.
You misunderstand me. I saying that happens^, but I do not like it and it should change.Quote:
If you believe all national governments are Imperial in design - then you by default are supportin such measures that Israel has taken to protect its interests within its own borders
So the UAE likes itself! That isn't much of a revelation. The point is that supplying money for a welfare state or not will not buy you friends. People who dislike you will not be overally swayed by cash handouts. They will take the cash because they are not idiots but it doesn't make them your pal. And I agree with you about Iraq. What the Americans are doing there is not a clever idea and they should have gotten out as quickly as possible, but that's another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
Thats your opinion, personally i couldn't care less if you liked them or not. Its your adminstration that recently gave them aid, go and ask them perhaps?Quote:
Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally?
No one is willing to do that, maybe we are selfish, but no one in his right mind will give some land to foreign people, there will be alot of economical problems and political ones, this is a very lengthy issue.Quote:
Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?
I will just copy/paste this for you to understand how hard it is:
Economic reasons:
It should be emphasized that 75% of the new Jewish immigrants to Israel, after the 1948 war, operated looted Palestinians houses, farms, cars, truck, banks, and the infrastructure resource such as water networks, the power grids, railroads, airports, wells, the telegraph network, and the schools, roads, and ports.
In other words, Israel has had the looted Palestinian capital as collateral, German compensation money for war crimes committed during WW II, and over 120 billion dollars in American taxpayers' money to help settle the new Jewish immigrants. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees and their corresponding host countries had no such good fortune. If Palestinians are to be helped to settle someone else's country, they have to take somebody else's property, which is unfair and unjust to others. From an economical standpoint, the biggest economic boost the "Jewish State" had was the looted and stolen Palestinian properties.
For a second, let's assume that such repatriation is possible in the host countries, and calculate the cost of such repatriation. For example, let's assume that we need to provide a reasonable health care insurance (not government subsidized) for each Palestinian refugee in Jordan (which hosts close to 3 million Palestinian refugees), and let us also assume that such insurance costs a $100/month per refugee. So the total yearly cost of providing health care insurance to all refugees in Jordan is at least 3.6 billion dollars = $100 * 12 months * 3 million refugees. Note that we have not yet analyzed the costs of providing infrastructure services, i.e. roads, water networks, power grids, education, transportations, ports, airports, ...etc. While contemplating these staggering numbers, keep in mind that the annual budget for the Jordanian government is little over 6 billion dollars, compared to 53 billion dollars for Israel.
While the average Jordanian citizen has some kind of collateral (such as land, real state, ... etc. ) to support his or her future well being, the average Palestinian refugee has nothing but his or her tent as collateral, and even the tent belongs to the United Nations. Consequently, the net worth (in economic terms) of the average Palestinian is almost nil, which negatively impacts tax revenues in the host countries. In fact, the huge number of refugees stifled economic growth in these host countries for several decades-since many essential services had to be diverted to help the refugees.
Ironically, the absence of the Palestinian economic base has motivated the average Palestinian to invest in his or her intellectual capital. It's really amazing how many Palestinians live the lives of many Jews in the past. In general, Europeans used to restrict land purchases by their Jewish citizens, which in return motivated many Jews to invest in their intellectual capital.
For the moment assume that the above economic formula is nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist, then let's ask the following questions:
If it's easy for the host Arab countries to integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic and social structure, then why after three decades of Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has Israel been unable to improve the lives of the Palestinian refugees under its direct control?
If it's easy for the host countries to integrate the refugees (despite their limited resources), then surely it should be much easier for Israel to do so?
Paradoxically, many Palestinian refugees' economic situation has actually worsened under Israeli occupation, and if it were not for United Nations' food rations, many refugees would have starved by now! In fact, malnutrition among Palestinian Children in the occupied West Bank and the occupied Gaza Strip has increased by 1600% since September of 2000.
It's unfair to claim that many Arab countries did not integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic, social, and even political structures. Out of the 5.9 million Palestinian refugees, there are 3.5 million refugees who still live in refugee camps (usually known as "registered refugees"). So despite all of the above obstacles, some 2 million Palestinian refugees (almost half the number of the Israeli Jews) are already integrated into the host countries' economic, political, and social structures.
Political Reasons
For the above economic reasons, Palestinian refugees were obliged to compete for all available resources in the host countries and continue to do so. The average Palestinian (ironically, like many Jews in the West) knows that he or she has to work twice as hard as the local worker just to keep his or her job. On average, Palestinians (for economic and political reasons) are not welcomed in the host countries, and that generates anti-Palestinian feeling. For instance, take the discriminatory practices of the Lebanese government where Palestinians are excluded from 73 job types, such engineering, health care, financing, ... etc.
Although this behavior is deplorable, it is a natural reaction by any state to any external threat to its resources, and this is a common experience among Jews when they emigrate to the "Jewish state". It should be noted that it is still a tense situation between Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and African Israeli Jews, and the blood of the latter was not welcomed in Israeli blood banks for a very long time.
It should be noted that even if the Palestinian refugees are integrated into the host countries, that won't stop Palestinians from demanding their right to return to their homes in Israel. Palestinians are extremely proud of their national identity, and continuously assert their unique cultural and political differences at the earliest possible opportunity. This deep sense of nationalism is widely shared most Palestinians, especially among the affluent families, who are already integrated in Western and Arab societies, i.e. in the US, Europe, Canada, ... etc. Actually, many of them still marry from the same indigenous localities, and maintain their unique dresses, folklore, and accents.
The major obstacle that many Israelis and Zionists have in their dealings with Palestinians is that they think that 8.5 million Palestinians have no national rights, such as the right of self determination. Paradoxically, they believe that 4.5 million Jews in Israel have the right of self determination! From the start, the struggle between Zionism and the Palestinian people was a struggle between two distinct and conflicting nationalistic movements.
Most, if not all, host countries are hesitant to grant political rights (such as the right to vote) to non-citizens, especially if the "newcomers" could overnight change the political landscape. This political problem was the case in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria soon after the 1948 war. For example, Jordan's citizens became (overnight) a minority in their own country. To ask the average Jordanian to accept this situation on a permanent basis, without anything in return, is to create a "political time bomb". Unfortunately, this "political time bomb" has already exploded in Jordan and Lebanon, and its after shocks are still felt today.
There is no question of the fact that some political movements have benefited politically and economically from not integrating the Palestinian refugees. We agree that all host countries used (and will continue to use) the refugees as a tool to collect international aid and bribes. We also concur that suppressing Palestinians makes political and economic sense to some regional leaders. On the other hand, it's not fair to point the finger of blame at the host countries for not solving a problem that Israel has created. By blocking the Palestinian refugees' return to their homes, farms, and businesses, Israel has made this problem persist and fester for many generations, and it has to put up the lion's share of the effort needed to solve it.
This sums up my thoughts perfectly.
12 million Germans from the eastern territories
Moslems and Turks expelled from Yugoslavia
Polish refugees in the west unable to return to Soviet controlled Poland
Japanese expelled from Manchuria and Korea
Hungarians expelled from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia
Poles expelled from the areas of Poland annexed by Russia
Italians from Libya and the Trieste region
Slavs, Jews, Gypsies from the concentration camps
Karelian Finns were expelled by the Soviets
one million Frenchmen left Algeria after Algerian independence
Greek refugees from the civil war
Russian Mennonite refugees in Germany
Palestinian refugees fleeing the Arab-Israeli conflict
Estonian refugees in Germany and Sweden
Hindu Sindhis were forced to flee with just the clothes that they were wearing and a few personal belongings, often tied up in a bed sheet fleeing in an effort to get away from the mass killings by the Muslims.
Punjabi Muslims fleeing mass killings by Hindus with nothing to call their own.
15.6 million non-Muslims left East Pakistan after Partition in 1948
almost 10 million French, Italian, Dutch, Belgian, Serbian, Polish, Russian, Baltic, etc slave labourers stranded after the war
The list could go on for a while
And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!
Are the Hindu's and Moslems of the Indian subcontinent so much richer and better off than the Palestinians? NO! Are the Palestinians the stupidest people on earth? Well, their leadership might take that prize but I don't think they as a people are.
So what in hell are they all doing in so-called refugee camps that look striking like Arab villages from throughout the middle east? This is 57 years later. This sounds more like a political game played by the Palestinian leadership at the expense of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinians attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 and when they were expelled from their they went to lebanon where they cheerfully helped dismantle the government. So what Arab government in their right mind would even want them around? Their leadership is directly responsible for much of the plight they find themselves in. Many other groups have 'been done wrong' and have gotten on with life. Every single other group of people mistreated from the 1940's and 50's have gone on to make a better future for themselves.
It's time for the Palestinians to get over it. Everyone else did, and some of them had a hell of a lot more to snivel about.
What's to get over? They were kicked off their land and they know they can't go back. What they're pissed about is that the people who stole most of their country are now keeping them prisoner and treating them brutally in what little they have left.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Maybe we should tell the Israelis, "Hey you already stole most of everything, it's been decades, why don't you stop holding us prisoner and just get over it."
At least the palestinians still have the balls to hold onto their land. The only people that have to get over it are the Isrealis, they also should accept that there will be a palestinian state sometime soon.
Are you talking about the Jews? ~:)Quote:
What's to get over? They were kicked off their land and they know they can't go back. What they're pissed about is that the people who stole most of their country are now keeping them prisoner and treating them brutally in what little they have left.
They only got a small portion of what was originally theirs back. The Palestinians and Jordanians are still holding the rest. How is it that you only give them credit for the land being theirs when so many owned it before them and most of them never owned any land there before the 20th century? If it belongs to the most recent owner then it belongs to Israel. Out of all the people who ever owned the land there you pick to back one who never owned it or had a country there. I dont back Israel taking the land because it was once Israel and dont see how you can back Palestinains for trying to take back land that was never Palestinian. The only reason thety are being as you say held prisoner is because their behaving like criminals.Quote:
Maybe we should tell the Israelis, "Hey you already stole most of everything, it's been decades, why don't you stop holding us prisoner and just get over it."
Maybe they will when the Palestinains and other arabs recognize Israels right to exist and that its not going anywhere. The only reason the Palestinians still have theirr land is that the Israelis let them have it. If the shoe were on the other foot you can bet there wouldnt be a jew in the middle east.Quote:
At least the palestinians still have the balls to hold onto their land. The only people that have to get over it are the Isrealis, they also should accept that there will be a palestinian state sometime soon.
Oh please... ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Yep, all those children, hundreds of thousands of them living under the guns of Israeli tanks and snipers, being deprived of the water under their own feet, having their homes destroyed, being brutalized and tortured and killed. Indeed. They're all criminals. Baby criminals and toddler criminals and adolescent criminals. Pregnant women criminals. Old age criminals. Handicapped and wounded by Israeli shellfire criminals. Hell, jail them all and keep them jailed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
The benevolance and charity of the Israelis towards the Palestinians is legendary. Hell, I heard the Israelis even torture Palestinians for free. ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
The only thing holding the Palestinians prisoner is their own stupidity and a tendency to murder women and children. Including their own who might not happen to agree with the suicidal policies of the majority.
I think that if some dirt poor Hindu peasant who once had a goat named 'Aji' but managed to hold onto his broken begging bowl can make it, then I think the Palestinians who have received huge amounts of aid and wealth from many different countries can as well.
The EU and it's individual member states have donated $4 billion Euros in the past decade to the Palestinian Authority.
The FPC (Funding for Peace Coalition) has calculated that the Palestinians have received up to $10 billion in international support since 1993. According to Nigel Roberts of the World Bank, this is '...the highest per capita aid transfer in the history of foreign aid anywhere.'
Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.3 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.
We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.
Algeria
During the war for Algerian independence from France in the 1950s and early 1960s, Algerian nationalists carried out violent attacks on Algerian Jews. After the French left, the Algerian authorities issued a variety of anti- Jewish decrees, including the imposition of heavy taxes on the Jewish community. Nearly all of Algeria's 160,000 Jews fled the country. All but one of Algeria's synagogues were seized and turned into mosques.
Egypt
The ancient Jewish community of Egypt numbered over 90,000 by the 1940s. Riots by Egyptian nationalists in 1945 claimed many Jewish lives, and synagogues and Jewish buildings were burned down. A new wave of discrimination and violence was unleashed in 1948. Over 250 Jews were killed or injured, Jewish shops were looted, and Jewish assets were frozen. Some 35,000 Jews left Egypt by 1950. Gamal Abdel Nasser, who seized power in 1954, arrested thousands of Jews and confiscated their property. Emigration reduced Egyptian Jewry to just 8,000 by 1957.
Iraq
The Jews of Iraq, with roots dating back to ancient Babylonia, numbered about 190,000 in 1947. When Israel was established, Jewish emigration was forbidden, and hundreds of Jews were jailed. Those convicted of "Zionism" --a criminal offense-- were sentenced to internal exile or fines of up to $40,000 each. Tens of thousands of Jews slipped out of the country. Then, in 1950, the government legalized emigration and pressured the Jews to leave; by 1952, only 6,000 remained. Jewish emigrants were permitted to take with them only $140 per adult; all of their remaining assets and property were confiscated by the Iraqi government.
Libya
The 2,000 year-old Jewish community of Libya, which numbered almost 60,000 by the 1940s, was the target of mass anti-Jewish violence in November 1945. In Tripoli alone, 120 Jews were massacred, over 500 wounded, 2,000 were made homeless, and synagogues were torched. There were more pogroms in January 1946, with 75 Jews massacred in Zanzur, and more than 100 murdered in other towns. By the early 1950s, more than 40,000 Libyan Jews had emigrated.
Morocco
In 1948, there were about 350,000 Jews living in Morocco, a community with ancient roots going back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE). In June 1948, pogromists massacred 39 Jews in the town of Djerada and 4 more in Oujda. Over 50,000 Jews fled Morocco in terror. During the 1950s, there was violence against Jews in Oujda, Rabat, and Casablanca. Most of Moroccan Jewry emigrated during the years to follow.
Syria
There were 17,000 Jews in Syria in 1948, a community dating back to biblical times. Anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo in 1947. All of the local synagogues were destroyed, and 7,000 of the town's 10,000 Jews fled in terror. The government then enacted legislation to freeze Jewish bank accounts and confiscate Jewish property. By the 1950s, just 5,000 Jews remained in Syria, subjected to harsh decrees; they were banned from emigrating, selling their property, or working in government offices, and were compelled to carry special cards identifying them as Jews.
Do you think they should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?
Where are your protests of outrage for them. Where are your tears, where's the love?
Silly me, and all this time I thought it was Israelis tanks and snipers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Since 1993 Israel has received about $35,000,000,000 from the US and used part of it to blow everything up that was built with the money the Palestinians received. They used part of the rest to finance illegal settlements, the Wall, and to finance water theft projects.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
I've never defended anything those countries did and am not going to start now.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
I've got lots of love. :sweetheart: But most of it is directed towards the Palestinians. I fight for them. And you, showing an equitable balance in these affairs, fight for the dispossessed Jews. I'd say we have the bases covered being the good Canadians that we are. ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
The big difference here is that the Jews took in their refugees and didnt use them as political foder. Their not making ridiculous claims for a right to return. They just want to live in peace where they are.They take care of their own. Muslims and Arabs could maybe learn something from them.
I don't carry any torch for the dispossessed Jews. What I do see is that Isreal is a friend and ally, The 'friends and allies' in the Arab states such as Saudia Arabia, Pakistan are the kind of friends who stick with you as long as your wallet lasts. The Palestinians are not even fairweather friends. They are our enemy and have proclaimed themselves such many times and their actions are clear enough. This is the reason the Isreali's get the big bucks. I for one see no reason to be nice to our enemies in the hopes they won't hurt us quite as bad as they might have. I will that that to the Europeans as it seems to be a tradition there. You would think they at least would have learned something from Munich. Nor do I see any reason in being hostile to our friends. I for one would not be supplying the Isreali's with large amounts of cash as it is poor policy, but that's another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?
The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US? How to lay a worldwide guilt trip on every single person everywhere? How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
How long ago were they expelled? If you look at any piece of land, countless of racial, ethnic and political bodies could lay legal claim to it. How far can you go back?Quote:
Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?
They should certaintly have the right to return, and they certaintly should be compenstated. But will they be compensated? Doubtful.
I doubt if any would want to move there. Remember its a prison.Quote:
The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.
Thats zionism not the policy of the government of Israel. Its old and a very poor argument concerning todays problems.Quote:
Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.
Palestine is a very elusive term. Exactly where are you speaking about? Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank much as you seem to say they want to control it.Quote:
Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.
Thats all you have on your side is emotial rehtoric. The Israeilis have lost many women and children who were intentionaly targeted by Palestinians. The point is that the arabs could have taken in these refugees. You know as well as I do the game their palying here. Using the poor Palestinians as pawns in a much bigger game.Quote:
Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.
I think they get more than that. Egypt alone I believe get 2 billion.Quote:
Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US?
Again you act barbaric you get treated as barbarians. Its the terror and the terror alone that causes their problems. You seem as blind as they to the cause of the never ending problem there.Quote:
How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?
That is exactly my point with regards to the Jews expelled in the 1950's and 60's from Arab lands and the Arabs expelled from Palestine in 1948. My opinion is that the right of return is pointless as they will simply be hounded out again. At some point you have to stop and get on with life, and let the past become history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
I'm not entirely sure on how I stand with disenfranchised peoples, I was just pointing out the fact that you can't always return native (whatever that means) people's lands to those natives.
However, wasn't the argument for Isreal in the first place was to return Jews to their homeland? I might be incorrect, but that is far less legally binding and logical than Palestinains getting at least compensated for their damaged, lost and stolen property.
And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!
Wonderful post. :thumbsup:Quote:
Are the Hindu's and Moslems of the Indian subcontinent so much richer and better off than the Palestinians? NO! Are the Palestinians the stupidest people on earth? Well, their leadership might take that prize but I don't think they as a people are.
So what in hell are they all doing in so-called refugee camps that look striking like Arab villages from throughout the middle east? This is 57 years later. This sounds more like a political game played by the Palestinian leadership at the expense of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinians attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 and when they were expelled from their they went to lebanon where they cheerfully helped dismantle the government. So what Arab government in their right mind would even want them around? Their leadership is directly responsible for much of the plight they find themselves in. Many other groups have 'been done wrong' and have gotten on with life. Every single other group of people mistreated from the 1940's and 50's have gone on to make a better future for themselves.
It's time for the Palestinians to get over it. Everyone else did, and some of them had a hell of a lot more to snivel about.
Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank
Oh yeah , they could annex it alright , then what ?
Expel all the Palestinians , that would go down really well .
Give them citizenship ? Can't do that there are too many of them it would make the Jews a minority again and a democratically elected government would be Muslim dominated .
Keep them all there without the vote as second class citizens ? Very nice .
So tell us Gawain how can Israel annex the West Bank ?
Apart from the fact that Isreal signed up to a paper which prohibits annexing land by force , oh it also prohibits moving your civilian population into occupied territory . OOOps .... Now where didi I put that settlement~D
But of course these ideas were only to intended to stop countries after a bigger living-room ~;)