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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
America's irreplaceable ally
Surely the title should be:
Israel's irreplaceable ally.
As I have already stated the British Commonwealth are at the top of the list of America's allies.
If America walks away from Israel, Israel will be the one in most danger not the USA. If anything USA would be better off as far as AQ type of terrorists. However doing it for that reason in itself is reprehensible.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Israel is completely replaceable.
What other country would refuse to be the US's best friend if told they'll receive three billion a year in outright grants, unlimited support at the UN, hundreds of top of the line US fighter jets, access to the highest levels of US intelligence and political power, the willingness to overlook nuclear weapons treaty violations, and told the US will wage war against their enemies?
Hell, North Korea, Syria and Iran would be flying the Stars and Stripes tomorrow if offered all that.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Beirut
Israel is completely replaceable.
What other country would refuse to be the US's best friend if told they'll receive three billion a year in outright grants, unlimited support at the UN, hundreds of top of the line US fighter jets, access to the highest levels of US intelligence and political power, the willingness to overlook nuclear weapons treaty violations, and told the US will wage war against their enemies?
Hell, North Korea, Syria and Iran would be flying the Stars and Stripes tomorrow if offered all that.
Very few would refuse such an offer.
There is a world of difference between the kind of friends you buy and the kind you support. Bush made the mistake of mixing these two up when he went to war with Iraq. Allies like Turkey, Germany, France, Canada and others did not care to be bought. Others who were not really allies had no problem with it. Israel is an actual ally of the United States and is willing to back the US when it is not in their interest to do so. Getting hammered by SCUD missiles and doing nothing because the Americans asked them not to act, is an example. And the reason the Americans asked them is that the Arab 'allies' were fair weather friends and Bush Senior (the smart one) knew it.
What Arab country who pretends to an alliance with the west would back us when the chips are down?
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
syria iran north korea............
hmmmmmmmm
syria iran and north korea aha
yes yes syria iran and north korea yes now i have got it !!!!!!!!
syria iran and north korea yes that's it !
what about some common sense ha ?
"the main reason for human mistakes is in prejudice..." (rene dekart)
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Well it has been done in the past... Noriaga, Saddam, Osama Bin Laden, they all got money and/or intelligence and all turned out to be really firm allies.
With North Korea, I think 3 billion dollars in rice and vegetables would be a good bribe.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by caesar44
syria iran north korea............
hmmmmmmmm
syria iran and north korea aha
yes yes syria iran and north korea yes now i have got it !!!!!!!!
syria iran and north korea yes that's it !
what about some common sense ha ?
"the main reason for human mistakes is in prejudice..." (rene dekart)
I thought I would provide you the common sense you asked for.
Here are all the capital letters and punctuation marks you forgot to use:
SINKHSINKSINKISINKWH
,,.,,,,.,,,...
Free of charge my friend. :bow:
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
thanck you !!!!!!! sorry
Thanck you !!!!!
chi sorry
Chi what a strong argument !!!!
~:handball:
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
I think this thread would greatly benefit if this Kindergarten behaviour that went over the last couple of posts stopped ... like now
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Just a simple common sense argument on the realtionship between American and Israel:
Israel is pretty much the only democracy in the region.
While I cannot speak for my government, I can speak on the perspective of many Americans.
We want a free and independant Palestine living side by side with Israel.
Further, we want democracy in the middle east. Not theocracy or dictatorships that fake democracy.
Nobody has a problem with Islam. After all, the United States was one of the first countries in the world to allow and promote freedom of religion. Yes, ignorant citizens persecuted many of their fellow citizens for following different religions, but it was not the case with the government. But we do have a problem with someone that tells us or others what to believe in or die.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
I believe there is a strong Jewish lobby in the US but exactly how much control it exerts over our foreign policy I'll leave to the others here to debate.
Looking beyond the ethnic factor supposedly at work in this political relationship let's examine some glaring geopolitical facts...
Israel is...
1) The only functioning and thriving democracy in the region.
2) The only nation in the region that does not possess a fanatical fundamentalist minded political party or movement (of weight and/or note) that desperately wants to chuck democracy and common sense out the window in favor of an 'our god knows best approach' to all matters foreign and domestic.
3) One of two nations in the region that can offer major port facilities and airbase access to the US military. The other being Turkey.
4) The only nation in the region that shares mutual interests and concerns with the only NATO nation in the region (Turkey).
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
2) The only nation in the region that does not possess a fanatical fundamentalist minded political party or movement (of weight and/or note) that desperately wants to chuck democracy and common sense out the window in favor of an 'our god knows best approach' to all matters foreign and domestic. ~D ~D ~D
Classic Spino , when did you take up comedy ?
3) One of two nations in the region that can offer major port facilities and airbase access to the US military. The other being Turkey.
There are many countries that can and do offer facilities in the region to the US and to other nations as well .
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Classic Spino , when did you take up comedy ?
He hasnt but apparently you have.
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There are many countries that can and do offer facilities in the region to the US and to other nations as well .
Name them.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I think this thread would greatly benefit if this Kindergarten behaviour that went over the last couple of posts stopped ... like now
Well I was going to correct the grammar in your post but given the bold qualities used in the word "now", maybe I should just let it pass. :lipsrsealed2:
Anyhoo...
The US has military bases all over the area, as well as carriers and other assets that can be utilized. During the first Iraq war, Israel was, if anything, more of an impediment than an asset. The US had to constantly keep them under control and then divert resources to protect them. In the second Iraq war, I'm not sure what benefit Israel provided at all. Perhaps someone here could enlighten me.
Israel is utterly replaceable, and there is no question concerning who is in charge in this relationship and who benefits the most. The US pays and Israel plays.
With the billions and billions and billions (and billions and billions...) the US has handed over to Israel, the US could have built an aircraft carrier the size of Long Island and parked it right in the middle of the Persian Gulf. In the long run, that might have been a much better idea.
It is a complete farce that the UN allowed Israel to be created in the middle of an inherently hostile area and then for the past fifty years the US has had to foot the bill (in the many tens of billions of dollars) and the political fallout (including the hatred of everyone in the region) in order to finance and protect them.
The US shot itself in the foot (several times) by playing Israel's game. People talk about democracy, which is all fine and dandy, but what advantage, at least in the Machiavellian sense, does Israel's (apartheid) democracy hold for the US? If power is the be all end all of foreign relations, which it is, it would seem that it is clearly Israel who is benefiting more and it is the US who is paying the price for it. Odd. I just don't see the advantage for the US in this "relationship".
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
He hasnt but apparently you have.
yeah right Gawain , would you like to examine some of the 15 current parties in the Knesset or some of the independant MKs , or how about some of the nearly 100 parties who are currently without seats but have had them in the past . Some of them fit Spinos comment perfectly .
Name them.
Where would you like to start , East or West , there are 9 countries at the moment with US military facilities , plus 2 more on the northern periphery , then 4 four more to the west that are used for the middle east , then there are the 3 new deployments to the south soon to be followed by 6 more .
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Beirut
...and then turn around and tell the US they better not be ten minutes late with this year's $3,000,000,000 handout?
:furious3: "Because last year's $3,000,000,000 was fifteen minutes late and we're still mighty pissed about it! Oh, and we'll need more F-15s and access to your most secret spy satellites again."
You know, Egypt's been getting 3B USD from us for years too.
A great article by WFB Jr.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Good article , glad that this bit was included
A second, that the true opposition party had been ignored because Mubarak had outlawed it, and therefore Ms. Rice was not even talking to the relevant people
So many media commentators are ignoring that little thing .
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Where would you like to start , East or West , there are 9 countries at the moment with US military facilities , plus 2 more on the northern periphery , then 4 four more to the west that are used for the middle east , then there are the 3 new deployments to the south soon to be followed by 6 more .
Again name them. Even Turkey wouldnt let us use their bases or are they our bases?
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Proletariat
You know, Egypt's been getting 3B USD from us for years too.
Yes, they have. You will notice that they frequently aid the US in one way or another as well.
What this proves is that Israel is not a special case at all. Promise the Egyptians a steady flow of billions (and billions and billions and...), several hundred F-15s, the highest of high tech intelligence and gadgetry, unlimited backing in the UN, unlimited access to the highest levels of power in the US, and a myriad of other forms of assistance and I assure you Joe Egyptian might just turn into GWB's best friend.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Sure, but then aren't we doing what you find most despicable in America's history? The ole 'help out of a piece of hhit' routine?
(I guess from your point of view you feel that way now.)
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Next he will be trying to tell us that Egypt is a better ally of the US than Israel LOL.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Proletariat
Sure, but then aren't we doing what you find most despicable in America's history? The ole 'help out of a piece of hhit' routine?
(I guess from your point of view you feel that way now.)
Well, you would be applying a Harry Trumanism to foreign relations. Certainly not the first time that's happened.
Gawain,
You should at least wait to laugh until I actually say the thing you are laughing about since I never actually said it.
Mind you, during the '67 war, far as I know, it was only Israel who destroyed US Navy ships and killed American servicemen. Not Egypt. ~;)
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Spino
1) The only functioning and thriving democracy in the region.
Besides Turkey.
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2) The only nation in the region that does not possess a fanatical fundamentalist minded political party or movement (of weight and/or note) that desperately wants to chuck democracy and common sense out the window in favor of an 'our god knows best approach' to all matters foreign and domestic.
You have heard of the Israeli settler movement, right?
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3) One of two nations in the region that can offer major port facilities and airbase access to the US military. The other being Turkey.
??? Many nations in the region have major port facilities and airbases.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
??? Many nations in the region have major port facilities and airbases.
Give me $3,000,000,000 a year and I'll build you a major port and airbase in my backyard.
Gee, I wonder how hard it is for Israel to have major ports and airbases when the US pays for their construction and upkeep. Give the penguins in Antarctica $3,000,000,000 a year and they'll have an airbase for you there inside a week.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Again name them.
Look them up yourself , they are all in the public domain . Try here for a starthttp://www.globemaster.de/bases.html
Even Turkey wouldnt let us use their bases or are they our bases?
Yes , would that be because it wasn't sanctioned by the UN or because it wasn't part of their Nato obligations , was it because you were siding with terrorist groups that it has been fighting for decades or because the whole action was based on a pile of crap and was seriously lacking in the comprehensive planning and post conflict departments ? ~:cheers:
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Yes , would that be because it wasn't sanctioned by the UN or because it wasn't part of their Nato obligations , was it because you were siding with terrorist groups that it has been fighting for decades or because the whole action was based on a pile of crap and was seriously lacking in the comprehensive planning and post conflict departments ?
You know as well as I do that its because we wouldnt give them the money they demanded.
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Look them up yourself , they are all in the public domain . Try here for a starthttp://www.globemaster.de/bases.html
Too many. Your the one who says there are so many in the middle east. Once more name them.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Why does everybody hate Israel?
Why does everybody blame the Jews?!
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
Come on, Beirut, Tribesman, Hurin, be honest.
As you freely admitted, we give as much, if not more military and foreign aid to other countries. Including, unless I'm mistaken, to the Peoples Republic of the Maple Leaf.
Yet I can count on one hand the number of countries that have done what we've asked, when we've asked, the way we've asked, and the PRML ain't one of them, and Ireland sure as shit ain't. Ireland wouldn't even prevent Nazi U-boats from floating around off their coast. I've done some reading, and perhaps I was a bit harsh to imply they were sympathetic to the Nazis, but they sure weren't weighing into the matter.
As somebody pointed out, Israel sat there and took SCUD after SCUD without retaliaiting. Who else would do that? Egypt? Turkey? They constantly defame us, refuse to offer aid, and in the case of Turkey, cost us several billion dollars and the use of a division by bending over for France at the last second. Turkey is no US ally, believe me.
When you come right down to it, the US can count on, in this order, the UK, Australia, and Israel. Canada, Poland, Czech Republic & Italy are good friends and about 85% reliable. That's it for allies for us. Everybody else... Germany, France, Turkey... well, on Sept 12th "Aaah, yes, we feel your pain. We will not stand for this". On Sept 14th "You're not actually going to DO anything about it are you? Don't be mad!"
And for all you saying "We were right in Afghanistan but wrong in Iraq"... dont' be so revisionist. At the time, you were griping about that too.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Why does everybody hate Israel?
I don't hate Israel. I do hate many of the things Israel does though. First and foremost their endless persecution and dehumanization of the Palestinians. 99% of my complaints against Israel are based on their brutal occupation and subjugation of the Palestinians.
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Why does everybody blame the Jews?!
As someone who is probably viewed by some as the boards leading anti-Semite, I would say with all honesty that I do not hate nor blame "the Jews" for anything. The three kindest, most compassionate and friendliest people I have ever met were all Jewish. Two of them were very Jewish, having roots in the Middle East or family lost in the Holocaust. (If that can be applicable.)
The thing is that many Jewish people, by the nature of their religion and customs, do tend to stand apart from the crowd. At worst, that makes them targets for discrimination. At best, topics of discussion. In either case, Jewish culture is very much in the foreground and constantly under some level of observation if not downright scrutiny. That observation/scrutiny can either be mistaken for blame or at least make the Jewish people feel conspicuous, which in itself can make one nervous and prone to feeling blamed for... something.
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Come on, Beirut, Tribesman, Hurin, be honest.
As you freely admitted, we give as much, if not more military and foreign aid to other countries. Including, unless I'm mistaken, to the Peoples Republic of the Maple Leaf.
If by aid you mean money, then the USA gives nothing to Canada. We pay for everything we buy, unlike Israel, which receives billions in handouts.
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When you come right down to it, the US can count on, in this order, the UK, Australia, and Israel. Canada, Poland, Czech Republic & Italy are good friends and about 85% reliable. That's it for allies for us. Everybody else... Germany, France, Turkey... well, on Sept 12th "Aaah, yes, we feel your pain. We will not stand for this". On Sept 14th "You're not actually going to DO anything about it are you? Don't be mad!"
Canadian forces continue to fight and die in Afghanistan. You may remember the incident when American pilots were told by their own commander not to fire on some infantry they spotted; the pilots fired anyway, killing four Canadians, and then got away with a slap on the wrist. Canadian forces are still, however, fighting in Afghanistan, even after being killed by their own 'allies'. We just don't go in for preemptive, illegal wars that are based on false premises and have nothing to do with 9/11. Are you looking for allies, who will tell you when you are wrong and try to stop you from committing colossal military blunders, or sycophants, who will rubber stamp your worst mistakes?
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Re: America's irreplaceable ally
No, I don't look for sycophants, and if you guys felt the Iraq war was morally conscionable, you did the right thing by not participating.
When it comes to defense aid, no, we don't send you weapons systems carte blanche. But we do patrol your coasts, maintain an early warning system and keep a division in Alaska. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
But, Iraq aside, there's times you guys haven't stood with us when we could have used it. Mulrooney left us hanging in the breeze a few times when Reagen & Gorbachev were doing their dance. Maybe I should have put you guys in the first category, but honestly, if the Danes started launching missile attacks out of Greenland, and we asked you to sit tight and take it for a bit, do you really think you would have?
Edit: Actually, I KNOW I was wrong to put you guys in the second category, and I apologize. One good example of how deep our relationship goes is it was Canada patrolling some of our domestic airspace when we launched the first strikes against Afghanistan and had to send some domestically based wings overseas. I apologize. :bow: