Islam being of a disestablished nature has many sects, of which Wahhabism is just one. It is derived from the Sunni branch of Islam. Sunni and Shiite beliefs are the Catholic and Orthodox churches of Islam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
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Islam being of a disestablished nature has many sects, of which Wahhabism is just one. It is derived from the Sunni branch of Islam. Sunni and Shiite beliefs are the Catholic and Orthodox churches of Islam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
And more christains were killed fighting stupidly over the same god just like their doing. And other than Ireland recent past we have stopped. But no branch of christianity backs killing unblievers or demands all the world submit to them.Quote:
Sunni and Shiite beliefs are the Catholic and Orthodox churches of Islam.
I have already said that you cant negotiate with him or any other terrorist for that matter. What im trying to say is that we need to fight their propaganda. Imagine being a child and growing in an enviroment, where everyone around hates the west and believes killing is a way to convert. This is the kind of enviroment we must try to eliminateQuote:
Osama bin Laden ordered a suicide bombing in Mecca during the Hajj when they allowed Bosnians in to take part. This would be the equivalent of the Knights of Columbus letting off a bomb in the Vatican because the Pope granted an audience to Coptic Christians. You are not Middle Eastern. You never will be. You don't have the right chromosonal structure. In their eyes, the best you can hope for is a life of obediant servitude to them, under Sharia. Is that what you're trying to negotiate?
I agree with this, but right now they seem to only be growing.Quote:
I've said this until I'm blue in the face, but for you, KOA, because I like you, one more time. Al Queda had members long before we did anything to them. Al Queda's members are not poor. Al Queda's members come from oppressive and fairly representative governments. Al Queda is not looking to establish a stronghold. Complete and utter capitulation. That is what they seek. Nothing less will appease them. Even being a moderate but devout muslim is not good enough in their eyes...they've killed more of these poor souls than anyone else.
yah! someone likes me :charge:Quote:
KOA, because I like you, one more time.
And just how would you achieve this in a closed society where there are thought and religous police?Quote:
Imagine being a child and growing in an enviroment, where everyone around hates the west and believes killing is a way to convert. This is the kind of enviroment we must try to eliminate
I think this is why we really invaded Iraq and why the terrorists fight so hard to stop democracy and freedom from taking hold there.
The thing is Iraq was not nearly as bad as many other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Christian were allowed to freely worship.
At this thing in my church, a photographer/preacher came and showed us his pictures of when he visited Iraq. In the middle of Baghdad was a church with a huge cross on it. Pre-War Iraq had freedom of religion, where christians didnt have to hide. How many other middle eastern countreis can this be said about.
Are you suggesting that Iraq was a free and open society? beisdes Im only suggesting that Iraq was chosen just as Normandy was chosen as the beachead in the war on terror. I think Iran would have been a better choice. Were just trying to get a foothold here and hope it spreads. Thats what the surrounding arab nations fear.Quote:
The thing is Iraq was not nearly as bad as many other countries.
Christian were allowed to freely worship.
At this thing in my church, a photographer/preacher came and showed us his pictures of when he visited Iraq. In the middle of Baghdad was a church with a huge cross on it. Pre-War Iraq had freedom of religion, where christians didnt have to hide. How many other middle eastern countreis can this be said about.
Faisal, bmollsson and others in muslim/arabic countries, can you answer what causes people to turn to the Wahhabist sect over other sects of Islam?
Iraq was free and open about religion and that is exactly what i was saying. I saw a picture of a whole wall of the outer building covered by a cross.
I think it is horrible to attack some country because it is more convienet. Imagine if america becomes some evil empire someday. Then the chinese want to liberate us, but attacking america is to hard so the chinese attack canada instead
Gawain, i rarely have subtle messages in my post ~;)
Opportunity. Social environment. Fetish in torture and bombs. Nothing better to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by dgb
It's more about being a part of a local gang than an ideology or faith. "A few guy's over a beer gets the idea to rape a chick" thingy so to speak.......
Gawain;And more christains were killed fighting stupidly over the same god just like their doing. And other than Ireland recent past we have stopped.
Really , I thought there was a little conflict between Catholic and Orthodox in a place formerly known as Yugoslavia .
I think Iran would have been a better choice. Were just trying to get a foothold here and hope it spreads. Thats what the surrounding arab nations fear.
But the surrounding countries are mainly your allies , so you want your allies to fear the very thing that you are trying to impose , while you are at the same time helping them stop what it is you say you are hoping to impose .
Time for a reality check there Gawain . Because if you are helping those that oppose what you are trying to impose then you are not going to get anywhere .
Don;Everything we do offends them. Our very existence offends them.
Offends who ? The nutters or the ordinary people ?
There is nothing you can do to stop offending the nutters , but there is a hell of a lot you can do to stop offending the ordinary people and driving them towards the nutters .
If you cannot concentrate on just the extremists and eradicate them then you might as well give up .
Have you ever set foot in Saudi Arabia? Have you seen what the Religous police of that country does to citizens that don't close their shops fast enough during the call to prayer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
So having the extremists go to one area of the world so they can be eradicated is a good thing now? I see your opinion is beginning to change on Iraq.
Not anymore christianity grew out of it for the most part. The best way to compare islam and christianity is to put them on an equal time scale. The best comparison between islam now and christianity is christianity 400 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Yugoslavia still exists my man. Serbia and Montenegro still use the name Yugoslavia. The wars took place in former Yugoslav republics, with the exception of Kosovo. And even them it was an ethnic conflict. Just that each major ethnicity practiced a certain religion. Croats and Slovenians are 90% catholic, Serbs/Montenegrans and Macedonians are orthodox (again 90%), Bosniaks and Albanians are muslim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Indeed, that gives us a bit of a practical problem doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
I don’t know. Why do some people join cults?Quote:
Originally Posted by dgb
Poverty, IMHO ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
Actually, most people who join cults are fairly well-off children of successful families that are themselves n'er-do-wells. For cults at least, it's a self-esteem thing. Cults aren't interested in poor people, as there's no money in an accout to siphon out.
Good point. Not that you or really anyone else would do much better, all of us would be screwed, probably.Quote:
Can you imagine Jag and the rest of you non religous people posting your views on god with these people in charge. Isalmo Facshists once more are the best example I know of conservatism taken to extremes. Its truly frightning. You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.
And I think Don is right. While it wasn't a cult or anything, take Hippies in the 60s. They weren't poor, despeperate folks trying to change the world, they were middle class white kids who wanted to change the world.Quote:
Actually, most people who join cults are fairly well-off children of successful families that are themselves n'er-do-wells. For cults at least, it's a self-esteem thing. Cults aren't interested in poor people, as there's no money in an accout to siphon out.
The only answer to the terrorism question is to spread freedom.
Once Iraq is secure (where the Majority are Shiite) the influence will spread to our beloved friends the Iranians. Iran already has a fairly large reform movement there.
Once the Sunni are on board, the influence will spread to Saudi Arabia. And that is a slightly different problem because of the Saudi Arabian monarchy, where Iran is a theocracy.
We must succeed in Iraq. If we do that, and secure a seperate state for Palestine, the world will begin to truly change towards long-lasting peace. Of course there will always be some degree of radical violence from the middle east, just as there are the IRA.
We must succeed in Iraq. We simply must. Defeat is not an option. Failure is not an option. We are winning . We will win.
But violence alone is not the complete answer. We must win the hearts and minds. Freedom and democracy will show them that. And maybe a McDonalds, too.
Redleg ;So having the extremists go to one area of the world so they can be eradicated is a good thing now?
No , because it seriously upsets the ordinary people who happen to live there aswell .
I see your opinion is beginning to change on Iraq.
Not in the slightest .
Now if you could get them where they live , or stop them as they enter or leave the honeypot you set up then it might be a good thing . But your governments plans don't allow for that do they ?
And to top it all off one of your great allies is not only stopping you from going to where they are living , it is even shooting at your troops if they get too close to the border in their search .
Because they live in a closed society. Their brainwashed. You should see the stories they make up nevermind those that are true to stir up hatred for the west. You reallly dont seem to comprhend what were up against. It reminds me of Gunga Din. You know the guy Sam Jaffe played and his friends. You could reason with those fanatics and you cant with these guys either. Its not like their open to free thinking such as yours. It is liberalism most of all that they hate. They are the uber conservatives much as I hate to admit it. Follow us or die. Like ive said their recruitment methods and tactics seem more like those of the Mafia to me.Quote:
No , because it seriously upsets the ordinary people who happen to live there aswell .
Their brainwashed. You should see the stories they make up
What you mean like WMDS Yellowcake and links between Iraq and 9/11 ~D ~D ~D
All those things are true. Some are easliy proven . Im talking outright fabrication. Also no one ever claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.Quote:
What you mean like WMDS Yellowcake and links between Iraq and 9/11
Yes Gawain , you certainly are talking outright fabrication .
Gawain is quite right. Most of the (Middle Eastern) anti-American propaganda is utterly ridiculous, but unfortunately, many people are inclined to believe what they hear, mostly because they lack an alternative news source.
You should see Al-Manar (Hizbullah TV). A prime example of on-air hate inspiring rhetoric.
Islamic Digest
http://www.islamicdigest.net/almanar/start.php
has links to English, French, and Arabic-language broadcasts from Al-Manar. They stream using RealPlayer(tm).
Note: This is not an endorsement of Al-Manar content, just a link for interested readers.
Quote:
Islamic Digest
http://www.islamicdigest.net/almanar/start.php
has links to English, French, and Arabic-language broadcasts from Al-Manar. They stream using RealPlayer(tm).
I guess I am. It seems they share your view on the world here.Quote:
Yes Gawain , you certainly are talking outright fabrication .
Well, not unless you think the Vice President of the United States is no one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Pulled from this site, but Google showed quite a few sites with Cheney Iraq/9-11 quotes. Take your pick.Quote:
Cheney: "His regime has had high-level contacts with al Qaeda going back a decade and has provided training to al Qaeda terrorists." (Cheney Remarks, 12/2/02)
Cheney: "His regime aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. He could decide secretly to provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorists for use against us." (Cheney Remarks, 1/30/03)
Russert: "The Washington Post asked the American people about Saddam Hussein, and this is what they said: 69 percent said he was involved in the September 11 attacks. Are you surprised by that?
Cheney: "No. I think it's not surprising that people make that connection." (NBC, Meet the Press, 11/14/03)
Cheney: "I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi government." (National Public Radio, "Morning Edition," 1/22/04)
Cheney: "It's clearly established in terms of training, provision of bomb-making experts, training of people with respect to chemical and biological warfare capabilities, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Iraq for training and so forth." (Cheney, CNBC's "Kudlow & Kramer," 6/4/04)
Cheney: "In Iraq, Saddam Hussein was in power, overseeing one of the bloodiest regimes of the 20th century. He had long established ties with al Qaeda." (Cheney, Orlando, FL, 6/14/04)
Cheney: "There's been enormous confusion over the Iraq and al-Qaeda connection, Gloria. First of all, on the question of--of whether or not there was any kind of a relationship, there was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming. It goes back to the early '90s...There's clearly been a relationship." (CNBC "Capital Report," 6/17/04)
One can argue many different sides of these issues, but it is unreasonable to assert that the current administration did not attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq. In fact, they were fairly successful. 69% of Americans believed that Iraq was behind 9-11 in 2003, and it's possible many still do. I haven't seen any recent numbers.
Quote:
Well, not unless you think the Vice President of the United States is no one:
Your post doesnt support the claim that he claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.
You can argue that but you would be mistaken. As far as my memeory serves me Bush asked right after the attacks to see if they could be tied to Iraq and was told no and that was the official position of the government from day 912 on. They did and still do maintain that there were ties between Iraq and AQ which is a different matter. Try again.Quote:
One can argue many different sides of these issues, but it is unreasonable to assert that the current administration did not attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq.
Where in the blue hell are these people? I've never met an American in my frigging life that holds the view point, "We'll, Saddam got us good on 9/11. Let's go get 'im!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemurmania
You know Lemur, as much as anybody, that those polls are disingenious and misleading. The answers would be quite different if the polls asked, "Do you think invading Iraq is a logical conclusion after 9/11?" but the poll you're citing cannot distinguish this.
I understand what you're saying. He never explicitly stated that Iraq was involved in the plot itself. It's a bit of a dodge, and I doubt you would tolerate this sort of semantic hoodwinking in a non-conservative, but in an extremely literal sense you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
In a practical, political sense, however, you are choosing to miss the point. Al Qaeda is known in the U.S. for 9/11. Full stop. When you say Al Qaeda, people think of planes flying into buildings. Maybe they think of OBL and the shoe bomber. Not a whole lot more.
So when you link anyone to Al Qaeda, you're linking them to 9/11, unless you explicitly state otherwise. Oh, not in a strict legal sense, but from a P.R. perspective, heck yeah. When the Vice President spends years linking Al Qaeda to Iraq, well, the effect is as intended.
You can fall back to a "but he never explicitly linked them to the act itself" argument, but that's politically naive. If you link someone to the Nazis, you're linking them to belligerent militarism and genocide. If you're trying to say that someone was an unimportant Nazi, you need to make that clear.
Both the President and the Vice President have made a point of mentioning 9/11 in the same sentences and paragraphs as Iraq. That's how you wind up with 69% of the U.S. believing a theory based on zero evidence. Unless, Gawain, you'd like to contend that 69% of America either knows more on the subject than all of our intelligence services combined, or they just like making things up to amuse themselves.
[EDIT]
Sorry Proletariat, I was posting while you were, ships in the night, etc.
Nobody I know currently believes that Saddam was behind 9/11. But before we invaded, when the Admin. was in a full court press, yes, I knew quite a few people who believed that invading Iraq would avenge 9/11.
As for the reliability of polls, of course they can be fixed. They're just a tool. But as I wrote to G above, there was a deliberate linking of Al Qaeda to Iraq that was supported by the thinnest evidence, which assumed a disproportionate role in both Presidential and Vice Presidential speeches. I can't imagine the linkage was a coincidence. Politicians do things to create a public impression -- that's why they're politicians.