Death and Heaven

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Originally Posted by Pindar

No, egoism means a priority of the ego over and above others. In this case, egoism is the attempt by the subject to determine the good based on self-interest.

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i was just making an unfunny joke.

as i understand it, an important part of your personal belief system is your revelation(s). i can buy that as a possibility, and given such, i would consider a belief in god to be a valid conclusion. at first it seemed that KoA was claiming that there was no way to gain any information about god at all, but faith was still somehow valid. but now, the "love" he speaks of doesn't seem that distinct from revelation.

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(I don't want to highjack your discussion)

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no worries, i wouldn't consider your input a hijack.

Big John when i was saying there is no eveidence for faith i meant for a non-believer. God's love can be seen and felt by the commomon faithful and even by the not faithful though they probably dont reconize it, but I hardly doubt that you would see this as "proof". It is proof to me cause I have felt it many times, but it doesn't help to prove others. Most people convert to religion cause the feel this love and they search for it's origins. This search usually end the person to their religious chioce.

Pindar, your much better at this debating thing than me, but maybe one day I will learn. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Big_John

... kiwitt's statement that he would believe in those things which were knowable (if i understand him correctly)....

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You are correct.

As to the discussion about Faith and ignorance. As I said before, I am a researcher and will be for the rest of my life. As I believe, I am always learning. However, everything I have learned, skills, facts, love, etc are based on real experience and study. So I am ignorant of "facts", and skills I do not know.

I have tried to study the "Christian" way of belief/faith etc. , as I know a lot of people believe in "God". I tried to work out what they could see. All I noticed was that it was something you have to "feel" to believe and have faith. The "Bible" stories were to help generate this feeling.

As to the "Bible" I have since learned that the first books were written "Moses" about events some 2,000 or more years before his time. As to the "New Testament", these sections were compiled many years after "Jesus" was supposed to have died. They also excluded sections. See here for a full listing of the "New Testament" works.

If the "Bible" is not complete in it's latest works, how complete is it's early works. I do not know.

For this reason I can not trust the "Bible" as it has had man's hand in determining what is suitable for inclusion and exclusion. It smacks a bit like what we now call "Spin" to sell something.

Therefore I seek independent evidence, before I will believe that something is true.

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As to the "New Testament", these sections were compiled many years after "Jesus" was supposed to have died.

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The gospel is written by people two of the diciples who were with Jesus throughtout his ministry and the other two were also from this time, thought they all wrote their books much later after Jesus died.

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They also excluded sections. See here for a full listing of the "New Testament" works.

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They excluded sections that were written much(like 200 years) later after jesus's death. Also, the had to unify christian belief. They had to choose the books that gave the most accurate account of Jesus's life and thats what they did.

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If the "Bible" is not complete in it's latest works, how complete is it's early works. I do not know.

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They have found many other jewish books, like the book of enoch, but non of these books really have much of a purpose, they usually just try to add in details of stories that aren't really considered historic fact.

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For this reason I can not trust the "Bible" as it has had man's hand in determining what is suitable for inclusion and exclusion. It smacks a bit like what we now call "Spin" to sell something.

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Some stuff has been left out, but is just because the weren't relevant. Someone had to go through the bible and decide which books to include and the early church did that. They had to or th bible wouldnt make any sense.

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Therefore I seek independent evidence, before I will believe that something is true.

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Your right the Bible is not evidence that it's stories are true, but most religious people are more moved by God's love that to us is evident in the world, though to the skeptic it doesnt exist.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

as i understand it, an important part of your personal belief system is your revelation(s).

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correct.

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

Pindar, your much better at this debating thing than me, but maybe one day I will learn. ~:)

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I just use more semicolons. ~:)

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

...thought they all wrote their books much later after Jesus died.

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My recollection of 20-30 years are hazy now, what would they be like when I am approaching 60 (and back then that was a lot older than it is today)

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Also, the had to unify christian belief.

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Why include the Old Testament then ?

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... details of stories that aren't really considered historic fact.

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My point as to that the bible is not based on fact

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Some stuff has been left out, but is just because the weren't relevant.

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Ah ! The SPIN again. why do they determine what is relevant. They only included what fitted the "message" they were trying to "sell".

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... moved by God's love that to us is evident in the world,...

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I have seen so many people so-called "moved" by "God" doing horrendous things, while continuing to say they believe in "God.

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My recollection of 20-30 years are hazy now, what would they be like when I am approaching 60 (and back then that was a lot older than it is today)

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yeah, but think about something as big as the son of God. Im sure you would remember. Also they had been teaching this stuff for a long time. They just realized later that they should write it down.

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Why include the Old Testament then ?

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The old testemant is part of christian belief. Though some people did want to cut it. One guy only wanted the gospels and the letters of paul, but the old testament was decided to be very much part of christian doctrine.

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My point as to that the bible is not based on fact

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Your right. Many of its stories are more of teaching a lesson or adding insight into God.

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Ah ! The SPIN again. why do they determine what is relevant. They only included what fitted the "message" they were trying to "sell".

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No, for example the book of enoch doesnt have much importance it only adds unnesary details about the creation story, making it irrelevant. Most gospels that were left out were written hundreds of years after jesus dies, obviously they were left out.

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I have seen so many people so-called "moved" by "God" doing horrendous things, while continuing to say they believe in "God

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and those people are fanatics that just use religion as an excuse, when really they are crazy anyways. These people pail in comparion to all the great missiion work that is done by Christians and other religious groups.

Before this thread changes to much about semantics, let's get to the point of this thread. Heaven.

As I do not believe in "God", I can not believe in Heaven. Therefore when I die, that is the end of life for me. I intend to make my life as happy for me and people I care about.

I suggest we agree to disagree, and I will respect other's beliefs

I respect you view, but i dont see why we should end the debate, it was on topic, or at least semi-on topic.

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

I respect your view, but i dont see why we should end the debate, it was on topic, or at least semi-on topic.

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We could debate for ages. Remember we have different life experiences, to which we have formed our beliefs. I don't think we want to debate all "our" personal experiences to which we base them on.

As you have said, your's is based on the "Love" you feel from "God" in your life. I respect that, and we should have more people like you. Mine is based on an early "parental" abandonment, due to multiple divorces etc, where I was left to form my own conclusions.

And as I have said early, I have tried to learn what the "Bible" is all about. But my studies ceased after I could not get past "Step 1 - Belief in God". I do however, respect "Christians", and my wife and I would make good Christians (Based on the way we live and respect others), if we could only get past the first step.

okay ~:cheers:

Man is what he believes.

-Anton Chekhov

wise words. :bow:

When you die you decompose, that's all.

This does not worry me because I am immortal.

King of Atlantis,

Let's say, a muslim friend approaches you. He said:

"King of Atlantis, I experienced god last night. I felt "him" in my heart and soul" He said, "I must blow myself up in London to defend the faith against the infidel Britons. I'm doing this not for self interest but for god and fellow believers because that's what god told me and I felt it."

What do you say to this?

Also:

- Do dogs go to heaven?
- Do dogs go to hell?
- Do dogs pray?
- What about the other animals? Do they sin?
- Do dogs have faith? Or soul?

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actuall i could eat my toothbrush,spoon, shoes, or pillow though it might hurt me a bit. I dont think you realize what free will means.

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How many times have you eaten those before. I mean, when you eat dinner, do you eat the fork and the spoon as well?

How many times have you eaten in a fast food restaurant and eaten the hamburger wrappings and soda container and straw? How about the other customers?

And if you do eat toothbrush, spoon, shoes or pillow, that's no longer free will isn't it, because you are forcing yourself to eat them.

Must every discussion of personal belief digress into an esoteric debate of epistemology? Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear what people think, even if they believe we're worm food. Maybe if it isn't a 'force others to believe as you do' thread, we can lay off of that? ~:grouphug:

Learnt a new word today; "Epistemology"

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The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.

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Thanks Don.

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Originally Posted by Pindar

Man is what he believes.

-Anton Chekhov

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Shame that is complete rubbish, isn't it.

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Man is nothing else but what he purposes, he exists only in so far as he realises himself, he is therefore nothing else but the sum of his actions, nothing else but what his life is.

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Jean Paul Sartre.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Must every discussion of personal belief digress into an esoteric debate of epistemology? Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear what people think, even if they believe we're worm food. Maybe if it isn't a 'force others to believe as you do' thread, we can lay off of that? ~:grouphug:

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who's forcing anyone to do anything? some of us simply find epistemological discussions interesting. :book:

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Originally Posted by kiwitt

Learnt a new word today; "Epistemology"Thanks Don.

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You're welcome ~D. I wasn't trying to be 'braniac', it's one of the few 5 point vocab words I remember. I was making a point about how inaccessable that word, and the turn of the conversation, is to the average tavern visitor.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I wasn't trying to be 'braniac',

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I can see that "Brainiac" ~D ~:cheers:

Merci'. ~:bow: Holy cow!!! Fat Louis was right, the French are first on the list to take over the world!!!

Me French ? "Sacre Bleh" :charge: :duel:

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Let's say, a muslim friend approaches you. He said:

"King of Atlantis, I experienced god last night. I felt "him" in my heart and soul" He said, "I must blow myself up in London to defend the faith against the infidel Britons. I'm doing this not for self interest but for god and fellow believers because that's what god told me and I felt it."

What do you say to this?

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Well i dont have any friends that are extremist, but i would say he was missing some marbles.

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Also:

- Do dogs go to heaven?
- Do dogs go to hell?

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I dont think so, but i dont really worry about who is or isnt going to hell. Im not God and im not the one to judge. I simply follow my spiritual path, and if I converted somebody that would be cool, but im not here to shove religion down anybody's throats.

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- Do dogs pray?

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no, is this a logical question. Dogs dont even know that the have a name, and arent advanced nearly enough to have some kind of though like that.

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- What about the other animals? Do they sin?

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animals, sin? no, they only follow their instincts to survive. What makes humans(and mabye some other primates) different is we can tell the differnece between right and wrong.

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- Do dogs have faith? Or soul?

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Dont have faith as they dont have enought mental power to follow a faith journey. Im not sure if the have a soul or not.

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How many times have you eaten those before. I mean, when you eat dinner, do you eat the fork and the spoon as well?
How many times have you eaten in a fast food restaurant and eaten the hamburger wrappings and soda container and straw? How about the other customers?

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Not very often, but i still could. That is free will. Making any descision represents free will.

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And if you do eat toothbrush, spoon, shoes or pillow, that's no longer free will isn't it, because you are forcing yourself to eat them.

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So, i choose to eat what i wanted. That is free will. I dont see your logic here at all.

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Originally Posted by JAG

Man is what he believes.

-Anton Chekhov


Shame that is complete rubbish, isn't it.


"Man is nothing else but what he purposes..."

-Jean Paul Sartre.

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JAG,

You shouldn't quote Sartre as authoritative to someone who has read him, understood him and therefore knows the source of his folly.

It also isn't a very sartrean thing to do.

Why would there be a heaven or a hell ? What function would it fill ? Isn't the dream on heaven and the fear of hell just another way to get you to do your home work and not steal in the local supermarket ?

Heaven is based on people's faith. Even the pagans have some sort of afterlife, because afterlife is the basis of faith.

Faith: not wanting to know what is true. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

Heaven is based on people's faith. Even the pagans have some sort of afterlife, because afterlife is the basis of faith.

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So you can't have any faith if you don't believe in an afterlife ??

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Originally Posted by bmolsson

Isn't the dream on heaven and the fear of hell just another way to get you to do your home work and not steal in the local supermarket ?

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actually Christians believe in a thing for forgivness. You should strive to be good, but you woudlnt go to hell for stealing.