Magyar and Khazars

This Forgus guy really knows some interesting links. You have surely right.

Forgus: the Székely thing was not adressed to you but to LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix.

I read somewhere In Hungary there were very few meadow and too much forest to a nomadic people. (If this is correct the earlier Avar people was very limited in their numbers.)
So I know it was neccessery changing the nomadic lifestyle. Maybe the old "horse archers" were simply massacred at Augsburg in 955.

Meneldil:
The custom of surnames came in only in the 13th century with the genera names. (This genera are not the same than the 7 Magyar genera.)

I am curious about the tech tree, names and everything about the theme. So Forgus please send it to me if possible. We can chat a lot but the thing is how they appear in the game.

The problem I encounter is that I have quite creative ideasfor the tech trees, But right now I don'T know how far I can go... For example I think it would be cool to have pagan groves or places of the Old, giving them happiness bonuses, but after the conversion event they should provoke unrest, until destroyed...
Things like this...

Scripting could make it so that a conversion unlocking new units occurs when the leader becomes Christian. I think it's hard to make units disappear when the conversion takes place. Making the conversion occur approximately around the historically correct time seems possible. Changing buildings isn't entirely certain though. However, if you present the coolest and most historically accurate tech tree you could possibly think of, we'll try to find solution both to what we can do, and what so far has been considered impossible!

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Scripting could make it so that a conversion unlocking new units occurs when the leader becomes Christian. I think it's hard to make units disappear when the conversion takes place. Making the conversion occur approximately around the historically correct time seems possible. Changing buildings isn't entirely certain though. However, if you present the coolest and most historically accurate tech tree you could possibly think of, we'll try to find solution both to what we can do, and what so far has been considered impossible!

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Deal!
I will have a lazy day at office tomorrow, so I'm quite positive that I can allocate some of my precious consultant time to the problem... ~:cool:

Thanks, we appreciate it a lot!

The Magyars in the beginning will start at Etelköz. It is not sure they will conquer Pannonia and the Alföld. Maybe they occupy the local region and build an empire there. I think a strong orient neighbour (the Pechenegs) is needed who want to conquer the starting Magyar cities.
How can you handle the Viking, Arab and Magyar raidings? With rebels or another way? :charge:

It is not sure the player want get Christianity. And he may choose the Orthodox kind alike than the Catholic religion! Can the faction get pop-up questions like ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’ or ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’.
Or after an event (Missionaries arrival) they may choose the new religion as a building (barack). But it is not a good solution because there can be old and new army type at the same time. Or they get two kind of missionaries in different times.
A Marius type army change would be the best solution.

This problem come up at every pagan people even they get IRL the Christianity or not.

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Originally Posted by Csatadi

The Magyars in the beginning will start at Etelköz. It is not sure they will conquer Pannonia and the Alföld. Maybe they occupy the local region and build an empire there. I think a strong orient neighbour (the Pechenegs) is needed who want to conquer the starting Magyar cities.
How can you handle the Viking, Arab and Magyar raidings? With rebels or another way? :charge:

It is not sure the player want get Christianity. And he may choose the Orthodox kind alike than the Catholic religion! Can the faction get pop-up questions like ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’ or ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’.
Or after an event (Missionaries arrival) they may choose the new religion as a building (barack). But it is not a good solution because there can be old and new army type at the same time. Or they get two kind of missionaries in different times.
A Marius type army change would be the best solution.

This problem come up at every pagan people even they get IRL the Christianity or not.

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For this, i think it's best to wait for BI to come out. We don't know the exact nature of the features it brings, but CA has announced that the player should be able to choose between diffrent religous ways.

Im' not sure how. It might be through certain buildings (like the diffrent shrines in RTW) or through influential persons (like MTW) or some new way..

-Skel-

If you guys need help about magyar units and the history, let me know. i'm hungarian and I know a few things that might be helpful.

@HorseArcher: Some constructive criticism on the current magyar tech tree could always be helpful ~:)

When will the units be Magyar and Khazar units be finished?!

Work just started on them. How long can you wait at the most? If you need them fast I'll try to speed up the process.

Great!
Im a magyar, and finally il be able to play my nation! ~:cheers: Im so curious to see how, good a job you guys did. Im sure u did well.
( Hope you put in the Famous Hungarian Bow "Magyar Visszacsapo Ij")
It matches the strenght of the English long bow

Don't rush them man....

Let them do good skins. ~:)

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Originally Posted by MagnosAkos

Great!
Im a magyar, and finally il be able to play my nation! ~:cheers: Im so curious to see how, good a job you guys did. Im sure u did well.
( Hope you put in the Famous Hungarian Bow "Magyar Visszacsapo Ij")
It matches the strenght of the English long bow

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Nice to see that our mod is appreciated ~D

@Edyz: ok, no problem

I hate to be demanding and be like a child but, YOU JUST CANT LEAVE OUT the MAGYAR Horse Archer, who had their tactic of fake retreat and firing arrow back onto the enemy accuratly. THats where the saying comes from.
GOD SAVE THOUS SOULS FROM THE MAGYAR ARROWS. Eventually Otto the Great really tricked us at Augsburg thats when the adventures toi the WEST ended.
Also a very nice touch would be to add King Laszlo (Saint) who ruled Hungary from 1071 to 1095. He was called the Flower of the Knights. He was said to be a tall man with the look of the lion on the battlefield but he was humble in real life. He won numerous battles and occupied Croatia which was united with us for like 850 yrs. I think he was a true knight but chivlary didnt came until XII century if im right. He was such a great warrior that his men loved him and he alwayz led them on front. ( the pope set him as the leader of the first crusade!! But his great heart gave up before the crusade came) My nationalist pride is takijng me away I know, but still I am so proud to have had such a great king even if he ruled 900 yrs ago, his soul is still with us.
P.S: Every Hungarian knight said the oath over Laszlo's tomb.

Ok. Good boy. Relax.

:hide:

why are you telling us not to leave out the horse archer? have you taken a look at the tech tree? I think there are 7 different mounted archers there.

@MagnosAkos: Yeah, there are light pre-Christian horse archers, medium pre-Christian horse archers, light post-Christian horse archers and medium post-Christian horse archers, and multiple varietes of some of them... Rest assured, the magyars will definitely use horse archers en masse in this mod...

How's the progress on the units?! ~:)

Actually I don't know exactly, but when more magyar units come, they'll come in a whole bunch at the same time ~:)

Forgus,
I see many heavy armored soldiers in many army in the early mods. If the early Magyars were only light cavalry how they were able to win that many war against these armies? What do you think?
Leo the Wise (or Constantin) wrote the Magyars fight with bow, sword, lance and wear leather armour. Were that reflex bows such powerful? Or what else? The Kopjások you made was able to defeat the heavy armored enemy? The enemy was very little in numbers?
As we know, the incursions against the western countries and Byzantium were mostly successful.
And another interesting question: some source from historians say the sabres were expensive only the richest warriors had them. In the findings the 12% of the warriors had one. But maybe it was a sign of rank similar to the number of the arrows they give to dead warriors. I started to think it was and if every faction is able to stand up swordsmen why the Magyars not?


Here is another Magyar warrior to the skinner(s). http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/harcos.jpg

I found an excellent link for more magyar "horsearcher" stuff:

http://lovasijasz.kayzee.sk/default.asp

good luck if you don't know hungarian, but just click around on the left to see various items. I'm pretty sure many nomadic nations had a similar equipment...

Leo VI the Wise wrote about the Magyars (digest about military power) in his work Tactica.
The year is about 900.
He titled them as Turks (the Magyars appear under many names in the souces).

The organization and deployment of the Turks less or not differs than the Bulgars.
The people stand under the rule of one person. They are nomad people.
Their armaments are sword, leather armour, bow and lance. In the battle most of them carry two type of weapons they bear a lance on their shoulders and keep a bow in their hands and use them as necessity.
Being pursued they get the advantage with their bows.
Not only they wear weapons but also the breast of their horses are covered with iron or felt.
They practise the horse archery a lot.
They dont make camps like the Romans but the tribes and generas live separately. They herd their horses in the summer and winter.
They have dense outposts against ambushes.
They stand up in thick fighting lines.
The missile combat, ambush, encirclement, false retrait and reversal, and scattered formations what they like the best.
When they put to rout their foes they pursue them harshly. Unlike the Romans [Eastern Roman Empire] and the other people they do not care about anything until they crush the enemy using every means.

Hey my friends!!

How are the Magyars and Khazars going?!

Horse colors

The nomad people used the colors of the horses to differentiate their units. The leaders were able to identify the different troops easily on the battlefield. The first mention of this custom is from the time of the Huns.
The nomad people who should be represented are Bulgarians, Khazars, Magyars, Kabars, but also Pechenegs, Uzes, Cumans, Avars, Alans, Burtas.

I think it would be very good to apply this custom in the game, too. First of all to the nomad people but not restricted to them. E.g.:

Horse archers – bay (chestnut) (brown horses with black mane)

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12508265.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12508264.jpg

Lancers – Grey (a certain dye)

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448586.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448407.jpg

Generals – White (grey to the experts). The white color was aristocratic between the eastern people. In the Gesta Hungarorum the Magyar leader sent always white horses as gifts. In the written sources the Magyars sacrificed only white horses.

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448225.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448343.jpg

Some unique unit can get other colors:

Siculs (later Székelys) piebald – historical fact they used such horses

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12449312.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12449313.jpg

cream (beautiful colored horse):

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/14400187.jpg

etc.

The steppen people used the taki, Equus caballus. Very important, this horses were smaller than the western ones. These pictures presents both tarpan and taki horses. I cannot see any difference. The main thing is they are different than the european horses – see the pictures above.

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/i...ges/equine.gif
http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Imag..._caballus3.jpg
http://www.tallinnzoo.ee/pildid/przewalski_hobune.jpg
http://pantransit.reptiles.org/image...-27/clyde3.jpg
http://galeon.hispavista.com/caballo...img/Tarpan.jpg
http://www.belarusguide.com/nature1/tarpan.jpg
http://ania.kosz.webpark.pl/rasy/tarpan.jpg
http://www.chez.com/goodelie/races/tarpan/tarpan1.jpg
http://www.horsedirectory.com.au/hor...przevalski.gif
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed...jpg/medium.jpg

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Hey my friends!!

How are the Magyars and Khazars going?!

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Going well, but unfortunately I haven't got any screenshots to show at the moment. We've been a little lazy during Christmas but are starting up again now. How is B:TW progressing? ~:cheers:

I think that's a great idea Csatadi (even though we would have to do that anyway, but not neccessarily with "correct" colors).

My selection is arbitrary.
Only the nomad generals and the Székelys are important.
In the reality colors could change people to people fixing by unit type is only to help the player. There historical info says only there were different colored unit.

but there ain't no alternative to having the same color for all people in the same unit, so it has to be that way anyway

I agree to your selection for the magyars, but will build out on it a little:

I think black and white horses were - and are - less common in Europe so brown sounds good for the most numerous units IMO - for instance the horse archers for the magyars, and sergeants/medium cavalry of British and Frankish units. Arab horses were of very high quality and obviously easiest available to Abbassids, but I think some more prestiguous cav units of the European factions could have black horses too. White horses were also uncommon and should be used only by European prestiguous and rare units. Al-Andalus should have fewer black arab horses and more brown horses than the Abbassids, even for the berber and later Almoravid units. For simplicity we could skip the cow-patterned horses IMO. Even though they exist/existed they wouldn't look good or realistic to form an entire unit of them, but it would have looked good if RTW had allowed us to put 3 or 5 of them in a unit (without necessarily forcing us to make them officers/musicians and placing them on the side of the unit).