Lack of Preparedness

The only thing I know for sure about the New Orleans pump system is a show I saw about it some time back. The pumps can handle rainfall up to 3 inches per hour - when they are all working. They aren't all working now; and the volume of water is too large for those that are still working. Some were damaged in the storm. It will be some days before the pump system can handle the water that is there. The Army Corps of Engineers is talking about blasting holes in the levees in areas away from the Lake, to allow some of the water to drain out, so the pumps can start working again.

And Redleg, be very wary of calling for a repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act. Many people to the right and left of the political spectrum have been calling for it to be strengthened since the fiasco in Waco, Texas. The lines got blurred there more than a little bit. The emotions of that disaster caused people to lean for more protections against federal troop use. Now the emotions of the moment are causing people to call for lessening the restrictions on such use of federal troops. I think that now isn't the best time to be thinking with our gut. Yes?

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

And Redleg, be very wary of calling for a repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act. Many people to the right and left of the political spectrum have been calling for it to be strengthened since the fiasco in Waco, Texas. The lines got blurred there more than a little bit. The emotions of that disaster caused people to lean for more protections against federal troop use. Now the emotions of the moment are causing people to call for lessening the restrictions on such use of federal troops. I think that now isn't the best time to be thinking with our gut. Yes?

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Oh it needs repealed because its not being used correctly any longer. New laws need to be legislated for the military to function within the borders of the United States so that it can respond to just such crisis as this one is. The Posse Comitatus Act requires the governmental buerarcy to kick in first - and certain criteria to be in place before troops can be used.

Maybe a better solution would be for the adminstration at the Federal Level to put more meat into the legislation that control FEMA and the National Response Plan - and give the military a bigger role in FEMA other then a coordination role.

What has been shown by the emergency and the diaster that has happen to New Orleans is that the current plan of the adminstration is found to be lacking because it relays on the states being able to handle it all - with only support coming from the Federals. Situations like this one shows that in some instance it has to be a Federal controlled plan and response. Having seen what Catergory 5 Hurricanes do to the coastal region - would you not agree that a Catergory 5 Hurricane is beyond the control of any state government?

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

So does anyone have a clue for how long it takes to pump the water out of the city?Because if people are confined in buildings without supplies it will turn out to be a jungle.I think that the marshall law was a good step but if they wont evacuote the rest of the population you are going to face anarchy there sometime soon.

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Not sure about the pumps but I am pretty sure that water normally evaporates from lakes in the area at a rate of around ¼” per day +/- a little. If there were 3’ of water over all 180 square miles of NO than it would take 144 days to evaporate all the water (not including any additional rain or hurricanes) I’m sure runoff, soaking in, and the pumps will all make that number shorter. It really doesent matter though, the salt water and sewage have pretty much made everything below the 2nd floor worthless. After another day, week or month it will still be worthless.

My stupid math fact of the day: I did the math real fast but if there were 3’ of water over 180 square miles there would be some 14 trillion square feet of water there.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

I believe that is part of the issue and the problem - no one knows for sure. And the city was evacuted - but it seems that city government ordered the evacuation but relied on individual citizens to evacuate themselves. Or that is my impression of how the events have gone.

And is I believe the scope of why this discussion was started

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There were some buses being used. The city used its buses to move people to the dome for example. They were trying to pick up those without transport and had designated places for people to gather. I've also seen some reports that buses that had been rented by folks in New Orleans were commandeered outside the city by outside officials. That is what the tourists who were in the French quarter are saying, they had purchases seats. I can also tell you that when I looked at a few webcam shots during evacuation, there were a number of buses leaving the city.

The city did its part, not flawlessly, but reasonably (remember the initial sighs of relief we had?) It had security that was reasonable for the first 24 hours after the storm. It had gathered what people it could in central locations. Then the gap came, the city could not hope to maintain order on its own, and help did not arrive promptly.

Who should have filled the gap? I'm not sure. State? Probably, but could they do it in the window they had? I doubt it. I think they lacked the logistics and manpower to manage it. That means that FEMA, etc. were needed, but that they work in reactive mode. And here we are.

To me it looks like something that is just too big for the present system. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at various individuals who I think failed, because I don't think the *system* can handle it.

Perhaps after the Katrina Commission we will understand what went wrong, and how to create an appropriate disaster planning/response system.

I disagree with the pass you're willing to grant the municipal authorities, Red. In point of fact, they DID NOT adequately plan for the local evacuation. If they did, there wouldn't be helicpoters and boats flying around the city plucking people off of rooftops. I also think you're giving the State of Louisiana a bit of an undeserved walk, what do they collect taxes for if it isn't to protect the lives of their citizens? I don't have time to go look up their budget, but trust me, there was more they could have done but didn't. As for FEMA's woefully inadequate response, I couldn't agree more.

Sadly, I would be willing to bet that not much will change out of this. Dennis Hastert make a foolishly unpolitiical statement at completely the wrong time, but what he said was 100% correct. Even if all three levels of government had been on their mark and taken every reasonable (and some unreasonable precautions) there's still more Mother Nature could have done. There's some cold hard facts that need to be faced. The single biggest oversight in all of this was the city itself! I'm not saying those people who lost their homes aren't entitled to relief and rebuilding, but not there. It's pretty clear, Mother Nature has claimed that delta for her own.

New Orleans Mayor is on the mark here, he is tired of excuses and is hitting hard now, Mayor Responds

A few comments that are square on:

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I keep hearing that it's coming. This is coming, that is coming. And my answer to that today is BS, where is the beef? Because there is no beef in this city. "

Nagin said, "Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving."

Nagin called for a moratorium on press conferences "until the resources are in this city."

"They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," he said.

"I don't know whether it's the governor's problem, or it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get ... on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now," Nagin said.

"They thinking small, man, and this is a major, major deal," he said.

"Get off your asses and let's do something."

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In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I disagree with the pass you're willing to grant the municipal authorities, Red. In point of fact, they DID NOT adequately plan for the local evacuation. If they did, there wouldn't be helicpoters and boats flying around the city plucking people off of rooftops. I also think you're giving the State of Louisiana a bit of an undeserved walk, what do they collect taxes for if it isn't to protect the lives of their citizens? I don't have time to go look up their budget, but trust me, there was more they could have done but didn't. As for FEMA's woefully inadequate response, I couldn't agree more.

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Their evacuation percentage might not be all that bad. I'm not sure. With similar notice and how much of Houston or Dallas, or Wilmington, or New York, or St. Louis would be evacuated? Remember, you also have to evacuate a huge swath around them AT THE SAME TIME.

I would bet you a very large sum that all of those cities would have a large population left behind, even after the evacuation was made mandatory. Do you think a few thousand police and guard could force out 100,000 or more people into buses in 18 hours or so? Where would the buses go?

I'll add in the "week end" factor here. It had some effect.

I'm not giving a pass to Louisiana, but Texas is struggling with the evacuees right now. I don't think most folks appreciate the scale of the problem.

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Sadly, I would be willing to bet that not much will change out of this. Dennis Hastert make a foolishly unpolitiical statement at completely the wrong time, but what he said was 100% correct. Even if all three levels of government had been on their mark and taken every reasonable (and some unreasonable precautions) there's still more Mother Nature could have done. There's some cold hard facts that need to be faced. The single biggest oversight in all of this was the city itself! I'm not saying those people who lost their homes aren't entitled to relief and rebuilding, but not there. It's pretty clear, Mother Nature has claimed that delta for her own.

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Are we williing to tell that to San Fran. next time? Or to any cities along the Mississippi that flood? Or to Anchorage? Or to Florida... Or to other coastal cities the next time they get hit? Or to Seattle when they suffer a Lahar from the massive glacier sitting above them on a volcano?

Does the rebuilding of New Orleans need to be different? You bet. Saying the place should be abandoned, BS! If we are going to start abandoning every city that finds itself in need of national help, then what is the point?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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I suggest we tell that same thing to every community that ever needs Federal disaster help then. You've got your head on backwards on this.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

Michael Chertoff should resign in disgrace - today.

He's already lying through his teeth to make himself look good. Scum.

"Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff denied reports that rescue efforts in New Orleans had been halted for security reasons Thursday, saying those operations "are continuing in full force."

And yet...

After a sniper opened fire on hospital staff at Charity Hospital, "The National Guard soldiers told staff to get away from the windows, and evacuations were halted."

In another area, "Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats."

Richard Zuschlag, president of Acadian Ambulance Service Inc., described the chaos at a suburban hospital. "We tried to airlift supplies into Kenner Memorial Hospital late last evening and were confronted by an unruly crowd with guns, and the pilots refused to land," he said.

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Being a naive "why can't we get along and be nice to eachother" kind of guy, I'm not surprised that they were not well prepared for aid and rescue operations to meet with armed resistance within the USA.

I would say the same to any community living under such dire threat. If San Francisco had an Earthquake and 3 days later hadn't figured out how to shut off natural gas lines, yes, the mayor of San Francisco would be hearing from me. And if the mayor of Boston couldn't figure out how to keep the roads plowed during a blizzard, damn skippy I'd have something to say about that too.

As I've said time and time again, there's breakdowns at all levels on this one. I am not trying to give Bush a pass on this one. Reread what I've written so far. But for somebody who's supposedly saying he's looking at all three levels of government, you certainly do seem to be focusing on one particular branch of the federal government.

I have one simple question for you... if New Orleans had done all it could, tell me, why were they only using outbound lanes of I-10 for the evacuation? Wouldn't they halve congestion by opening up the inbound lanes for outbound traffic too?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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Have you seen the guy lately?
I have no doubts as to the sincerity of his commitment to helping the citizens of NO in this situation.
What degree of negligence he's shown earlier should be discussed some months from now IMH(on this rare occasion)O

The same goes for other authorities on all levels.
The relevant question these days is "What are you doing to help those afflicted right now?"

I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here. I agree with you, building so heavily on the San Andreas fault line defies logic as well. But, if somebody chooses to, why should they be able to come take money from you and I to rebuild their house? I don't believe the Federal Government should be in the disaster insurance business, and essentially, that's what rebuilding plans are. They give money to people who built in dangerous areas by taking it from people who built in safe ones. I definitiely think your average Joe in New Orleans should be covered and should have a shot at rebuilding, even at my expense, but don't I have a right to say "Okay, but this time, do it above sea level?" Or "not on an active fault line"? Or am I supposed to just shut up and fork it over, regardless of what I think?

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Originally Posted by Paul Peru

Have you seen the guy lately?
I have no doubts as to the sincerity of his commitment to helping the citizens of NO in this situation.
What degree of negligence he's shown earlier should be discussed some months from now IMH(on this rare occasion)O

The same goes for other authorities on all levels.
The relevant question these days is "What are you doing to help those afflicted right now?"

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Well, $500 to the Salvation Army (that's all I can do right now, I get paid next Friday) and we're going to make our house available to a family (should they want to make the 800 mile trek up here). I'm not trying to blame this solely on Mayor Nagin. I'm just saying he's hardly a blameless hero of the people in all of this.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

New Orleans Mayor is on the mark here, he is tired of excuses and is hitting hard now, Mayor Responds

A few comments that are square on:

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“Get off your asses and let's do something.” Shouldn’t he have been saying this days ago?

"Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving." If no one else is doing it, do it yourself! As he was on his way to safety he should have been on his cell phone with his city credit card in hand renting all the busses he could. Ordering supplies and water. And whatever else.

If there wasn’t a plan for this kind of disaster, then make it up as you go.

Stop talking to all these people that aren’t helping, tell the president you will call him back and get “something” done yourself.

The people are cut off by water not lava! Get a dam row boat or a fleet of row boats and bring supplies to the cutoff people, its your city, YOU do something.

GAH! :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I have one simple question for you... if New Orleans had done all it could, tell me, why were they only using outbound lanes of I-10 for the evacuation? Wouldn't they halve congestion by opening up the inbound lanes for outbound traffic too?

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I've been asking the same thing myself. I'm not sure who makes the call on that. City? State? State patrol?

It might also have been that the bottleneck was farther out. It doesn't help to go from 5 to 10 lanes if some other restriction downstream (overpasses, intersections) etc. makes the effective carrying capacity 3 or 4 lanes on the escape route. The traffic flow is designed directionally, so this is a big concern in my mind. Do any areas ever conduct these kind of drills statewide.

Look, I'm not trying to attack you, Don. But the scale of this is so far beyond what a Mayor has control over. I'm sure there will be many things found that could have been done better by the city, but was what he did reasonable? From watching things develop I would say yes. I'm not so impressed by the Louisiana governor though. I'm even less impressed by Federal efforts prior to today. The Coast Guard did its role, but the others have been inadequate. As Redleg said, it is part of the design of the *response* system. The system is designed to exhaust the efforts of local and state first.

This mayor didn't build the city. The city was built long ago, and there have been mayors since then. Do you think the mayor could magically raise the city by 9 feet?

Shall we give Hailey Barbour hell for the complaints of Mississippi citizens who are cut off or did not evacuate? Or who are complaining that no water has arrived and dead bodies are creating a stench. They appear to have a better opportunity to evacuate on average.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

“Get off your asses and let's do something.” Shouldn’t he have been saying this days ago?

"Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving." If no one else is doing it, do it yourself! As he was on his way to safety he should have been on his cell phone with his city credit card in hand renting all the busses he could. Ordering supplies and water. And whatever else.

If there wasn’t a plan for this kind of disaster, then make it up as you go.

Stop talking to all these people that aren’t helping, tell the president you will call him back and get “something” done yourself.

The people are cut off by water not lava! Get a dam row boat or a fleet of row boats and bring supplies to the cutoff people, its your city, YOU do something.

GAH! :furious3:

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Do you realize that there is almost no communication left for the Mayor and his officers, etc.? The storm took out cels, phone, even radios. The officers can't communicate. You don't build local systems to operate with no gas, no electric, no communication towers, the roads impassable, the areas holding boats unreachable, etc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

It is overload beyond belief. Response must come from without. All you can expect of the locals is to try to hold the fort. They did for a time. We heard about all this stuff coming. Where the hell has it been? Why does it take 4 days to get any substantial assistance into the area? People don't hold out without water well in this heat. You can't wait 2 days, let alone 4.

The mayor is right. If a city can't get help any quicker than this, then the whole damned system is broken.

I think we're both getting a little raw over this, and that's a good thing, as it means we're both still emotionally invested and angry at the travesty that's been visited upon our fellow human beings, in ways that are increasingly appearing to be due to negligence and incompetence in addition to the severe damage & consequences doled out by mother nature herself.

In many ways, the blame game is a natural reaction to something like this. Nobody wants to consider the possiblity that what's happened down in New Orleans really is the best that we can do. We don't like admitting at the end of the day, even with our government, our money & everything else, we're at nature's whim. Well, every now and then we get some stark reminders.

In that spirit, I'm recognizing what I'm doing and dropping out of it. Mr. Peru is Right, the time for figuring out who did what they were supposed to and who didn't is not yet upon us.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Well, $500 to the Salvation Army (that's all I can do right now, I get paid next Friday) and we're going to make our house available to a family (should they want to make the 800 mile trek up here). I'm not trying to blame this solely on Mayor Nagin. I'm just saying he's hardly a blameless hero of the people in all of this.

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I wasn't talking about you, really, just a general "you" :embarassed:

Your participation certainly seems commendable, but I was thinking of governmental institutions etc.

And I surely didn't mean to suggest that the mayor is a blameless hero of anything (but then neither were St. Paul, St. Augustine or several other St.s, no direct comparison being made and so on and so forth), just that he's making a genuine effort now.

Just watched Soledad of CNN interview Brown of FEMA. He was doing the same smoke blowing that the mayor was complaining about, saying he didn't even know about the convention center until a few hours ago and that supplies had been brought in. She ate his lunch. Very calm, but she pointed out that the national guardsmen had known of the problems in the convention center at least 24 hours before, and that folks were being directed to go there by emergency workers. Basically, everything he was saying was bullshit spin.

Here is CNN's article on some of this, haven't had a chance to read it yet:
Spin vs. Reality

This is a big reason things have not gotten done. Talk, no action.

Brown is going to be lucky to keep his job after this. Hopefully Chertoff too, but his problems include things which go way beyond the scope of this disaster. Good ol' "Our borders are relatively secure" Chertoff. Relative to what? A sieve?