EU yes or no?

The Eu resembles are tired, overworked car which thinks it can be the best car on the block and more than just a car. And there's only one thing which these cars need. Scrapping. Let's face it, if a country wanted to go to war with antoher, no entity like the EU will be able to stop it. The fact that there hasn't been a war in Western Europe since 1945 is simply because everyone remebered the horrors of WWII and there wasn't much to fight about. And that other ridiculous invention of the EU, the euro has brought sluggish growth, high prices and high unemployment. The political side is a farce of corrupt EMPs, unelected officials (like that crook Peter Mandelson) and civil servants inc ushy jobs. Just make it a free trade zone and have done with it.

@King Henry V: Amen! That's by far the best 6 lines long summary of EU I've ever seen!

Yes from my professional point of view. I really love exporting things to other EU countries since I dont have to send invoices to the customs for every single shipment. It was a lot of extra work before Sweden joined EU in 1994, which mostly disappeared after that ~:cheers:

But then there are other things I dont like. Maybe I should have voted GAH!

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

Let's face it, if a country wanted to go to war with antoher, no entity like the EU will be able to stop it. The fact that there hasn't been a war in Western Europe since 1945 is simply because everyone remebered the horrors of WWII and there wasn't much to fight about.

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Yeah, sure, nothing like millions of soviet soldiers on Poland and Hungary western borders, waiting the good time to invade western Europe. Nothing like hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at Paris, London and Roma.

Now, you're young, and you might think 'they would never have invaded us, that's total crap', but I doubt people western Europeans thought the same way a few decades ago.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

And that other ridiculous invention of the EU, the euro has brought sluggish growth, high prices and high unemployment.

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Oh wait, I thought this was caused by the oil shocks in 1973 and 1979. Am I mistaken ?

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

NO - We will not join!!!

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Cheers, brother in arms.

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Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat

We'll make you. :duel:

All your oil are belong to us...

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Over my dead body.

Man i wish i lived in scandanavia or the Uk joined u guys in a union, god what a dream that is, one day my long lost scandanavian brothers we will all unite and not join that dam EU!!!

*hugs King Ragnar* :bow:

Most of the comments on this thread were made by Northern Europeans. This is the perspective of a South European.

Now let's analyse this from two prespectives:

Economically:

Apart from what you may think, the ones who benefit, from the conomical point of view are the richest countries. Mainly due to it's strnger influence on the control of the import/export balance of the smaller countries.
Even if the small countries receive Financial help (which is completly diferent) after a few years, the true adavantage go to the bigger countries, not the smallest.

The smaller contries are forced to obey production quotas, which cannot be passed.
This economical system only makes the rich countries grow richer. It is the result of the pressure of the companies over politics, which should never happen, and was not the original ideia.

From this perspective im agaisnt it, or at least i think a lot could be changed.


Politically:

It is an utopia. However i believe on it, and the final objective is achievable.

Dispite of what people may say, ther isnt such a diference bettween the countries and their cultures. In many aspects we can speak of a Europpean society, with common values and philosophies.

EU was born of the need of keeping both peace, and prosperity on Europe. If it manages to keep evolving on the next decades nothing will stop it, and eventually it will become a federation. The only obstacle is the uncooperative countries...

Overall i do believe on EU, and what many people taught to be impossible has already been made. The europpean union broke the Europpean cycle of wars that had been going on for centuries, and there has never been such a long peace over Europe such as now.

Correct me if m wrong about anything.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Yeah, sure, nothing like millions of soviet soldiers on Poland and Hungary western borders, waiting the good time to invade western Europe. Nothing like hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at Paris, London and Roma.

Now, you're young, and you might think 'they would never have invaded us, that's total crap', but I doubt people western Europeans thought the same way a few decades ago.



Oh wait, I thought this was caused by the oil shocks in 1973 and 1979. Am I mistaken ?

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I said Western Europe. There hasn't been a war between Western European countries since 1945. There were no cases where two EU countries were really at odds with each other and only the EU was able to defuse the situation. And it can't claim anything to do with the Cold War because it only became the European Union after the collapse of communism.

The information I got was in the Alternatives Economiques which I was reading today in the Library. On it's front cover was "Pourquoi l'euro ne tient pas ses promesses" ("Why the euro is not keeping its promises"). There they showed a graph comparing different countries in the world with their growth rates in 1998 and 2004. America, Japan and China's growth had risen, whilst the UK had fallen somewhat. However, growth in the Eurozone economies had almost halved. Unemployment has risen too since 2000/02. As for prices, well I sometimes go to shop in France. Before the euro, it used to be much cheaper than in Switzerland. Now, with certain products such as vegetables, it's the same price in Switzerland! I go to Nice once a year for Easter holidays. Prices are ludicrously expensive there! Supermarkets, restauranters and virtually everyone else have taken the opportunity to round up the prices a bit higher. In Germany it's called the teuro! They give you the thought that you're saving money on exchange rates and everything, but rob you blind elsehwere. Once again, they show themselves eminently capable of crookery. I think you will be easily able to verify these facts for yoursleves.

http://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/

The most important purpose of the EU is to preserve the security of the Continent and cooperation between its countries.

Its main purpose is based on Immanuel Kant's "Zum ewigen Frieden", similar to the UN. The theory is, that any human society uses Laws to regualte conflicts between individuals. Kant developed the Idea of a League of Nations which should regualte the relations and conflicts between Nations and the theory of International Law.

Woodrow Wilson adopted the Idea and propulsed it into the first League of Nations. Thus Association failed because of abuse by Great Britain turning it into a tool for an Attempt to recreate the Pax Britannica, which is a major spoof of its ideal.

After World War II the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France agreed on its current Form (UN).

However Germany, France, Italy and the BeNeLux States considered the possebility of an own European Confederation which grew into the EU.

The EU has reached most of Kant's ideals and even topped them:

- It is headed by a democrathic Parilament
- It obtains an equal and united Citizenship for its people
- Freedom of moval and trade
- common laws
- common currency

The Nationalist Wing can of course not accept that their Nation is accepting a higher authority. Its just about that someone pulled Nationalism on the Altar of pray, must view this as a kind of hereticism.

I think the whole project should be pulled down and started again. The goal is worthwhile, but the current organization is materially corrupt, morally bankrupt and an unrepresentative closed shop in which self-regulation repeatedly fails. Just like Westminister in fact, but with more travel expenses.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

NO - We will not join!!!

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You are already a part of it, just that you don't want to accept it. EU is a large ship in an ocean and Norway is a little row boat in a rope being dragged after the EU ship. In the little row boat all the Norwegians wave their flags and sing Norwegian folk music.
Get real, Norway need EU more than EU need Norway......

It seems to me that a European Union would create a real rival to American power. Since I think that the American Federal Government has too much power as is, I would have to say NO to EU if I were in Europe. The reason is that a larger federal government trumps the power and rights of smaller governments, which are more representative of individuals.

EU is a bad idea for individuals and a good idea for socialist and those who wish to control the behavior of others. A closely linked culture and society would be a better idea IMO. The currency seemed to be a good idea. An overall governance? Not so good.

I would have liked to see an American confederacy with very slightly stronger federal power. The CSA would have been great once they eventually banned slavery.

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Originally Posted by bmolsson

You are already a part of it, just that you don't want to accept it. EU is a large ship in an ocean and Norway is a little row boat in a rope being dragged after the EU ship. In the little row boat all the Norwegians wave their flags and sing Norwegian folk music.
Get real, Norway need EU more than EU need Norway......

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We are not a part of the EU and probably will never be a member. That does not mean we don’t have agreements or arrangements with the EU (EØS and Schengen).

A full membership will be devastating to the possession of our natural resources. A membership in the EU will give EU the right to use our sea resources as they see fit. And they will probably sell quotas to the highest bidder. They could set our goods taxes as they see fit which would mean a loss in important welfare income. The costal districts would loose its survival basis and will result in ghost towns.
The fact that we can close our borders if the need arises, as when the meat products of EU were contaminated, is a clear reason why we should stay out.

Norway do not need the EU… we can sell our fish elsewhere. The Russian marked is opening up right now and thousand year old trading routs are rediscovered in the east. That was the way we went before and that is the way we can go again. The US is already there drilling oil and gas and we can help. We are in possession of serious expertise in that area.

Besides, a union has never been good for Norway. We do best on our own.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

- It is headed by a democrathic Parilament

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Lies and deceit, the parliament has no official power. Those who do have power, are not democratically elected. In fact, all the Parliament are allowed to do is TALK.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

- It obtains an equal and united Citizenship for its people

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This Citizenship only exists by name. And people don't want to be united like that, people want to preserve their own culture.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

- Freedom of moval and trade

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If you have the wrong skin color, you'll still be harassed at all borders. Freedom of movement is not necessary unless their oppression in your home country. Free trade can be achieved without a dictatorship political union.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

- common laws

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We don't want that. The fact that I still live in my home country is because I like it's laws. Nothing could be worse than applying the laws of other countries to my country. Our laws won't be spread to the other nations, we'll be forced to use theirs. And why would we even want to spread our own laws? All countries have the right to have their own law and culture and should be respected.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

The Nationalist Wing can of course not accept that their Nation is accepting a higher authority. Its just about that someone pulled Nationalism on the Altar of pray, must view this as a kind of hereticism.

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What is the difference between Nationalism with a small country and Nationalism with a large union-country without democratic leadership? Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

The failure to respect people's need for freedom and preserving of their own culture and law will result in rebellions and civil war, which I'll personally take part in when they've grown sufficiently large.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

I said Western Europe. There hasn't been a war between Western European countries since 1945. There were no cases where two EU countries were really at odds with each other and only the EU was able to defuse the situation. And it can't claim anything to do with the Cold War because it only became the European Union after the collapse of communism.

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My point precisely. There hasn't been a war in western Europe because western Europeans had to be united against the red threat.
Right after the war, and until the early 50, Germany was still considered as a threat by most of the French. I'm not saying a war would have been possible, but events like the post WWI ones (occupation of wealthy regions) would likely have occured without European cooperation.

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The information I got was in the Alternatives Economiques which I was reading today in the Library. On it's front cover was "Pourquoi l'euro ne tient pas ses promesses" ("Why the euro is not keeping its promises"). There they showed a graph comparing different countries in the world with their growth rates in 1998 and 2004. America, Japan and China's growth had risen, whilst the UK had fallen somewhat. However, growth in the Eurozone economies had almost halved. Unemployment has risen too since 2000/02.

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Huh, I think either you did not really understood what you read, or the article was somewhat biased. Obviously, the Euro is not keeping its promises, mainly because it did not grant a huge growth to all Euro zone countries and did not boost european exports.
But then, the sluggish growth of the Euro countries is France and Germany fault. Look at say, Ireland, Finland, Spain. They have some of the higgest grow rates of the EU, and of the western world. Euro is not guilty of a sluggish growth.

And yes, Euro raised some prices (mainly food and necessity goods), but from what I remember of my econmy lessons, prices always rise when a new currency is introduced (btw, Euro also reduced the cost of many other goods. But as usual, people only see what's more expensive, and not what is cheaper)

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

A full membership will be devastating to the possession of our natural resources. A membership in the EU will give EU the right to use our sea resources as they see fit.

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Yeah, don't let the bad EU look at 'your' resources and just fish the hell out of it, so you don't have anything remaining to fish in 50 years. Way to go Norway, Japan and Russia ~:thumb:
Anyway, whales will have disapeared in 10 years, so who cares about some unknow fish species ?

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Lies and deceit, the parliament has no official power. Those who do have power, are not democratically elected. In fact, all the Parliament are allowed to do is TALK.

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Wrong. They do have official power. It's just that they have power related to useless stuffs. Too bad the treaty won't be accepted. It would have expanded the Parliament power.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

This Citizenship only exists by name. And people don't want to be united like that, people want to preserve their own culture.

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Wrong once again (or well, it may be true in northern countries, given the comments I can read here). First, the European citizenship does *give* european rights. Second, most people in France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, don't really care about their culture. I mean, I meet young people who already speak 3 or 4 european languages, visited even more european countries and have friend all accross EU, on a daily basis in my University. If I travel to Spain, I won't find myself in a new, unknown world. Apart from the language and a fews other things, Spain and France are very similar, and I'm fairly sure the same could be said about France and Sweden or Finland. It's not gonna be as if I travelled to Japan or Uganda.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

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Yeah, it's a well known fact that EU is such a tyrannical, police-state. But as long as you avoid to deal with the EuroStapo (European State Polizei), it will be alright ~:cool:.

Furthermore, I don't see how EU threaten your culture ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

My point precisely. There hasn't been a war in western Europe because western Europeans had to be united against the red threat.
Right after the war, and until the early 50, Germany was still considered as a threat by most of the French. I'm not saying a war would have been possible, but events like the post WWI ones (occupation of wealthy regions) would likely have occured without European cooperation.

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No, they were united because of NATO.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Wrong. They do have official power. It's just that they have power related to useless stuffs. Too bad the treaty won't be accepted. It would have expanded the Parliament power.

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Yes, but that official power is restricted to come with suggestions that nobody is obliged to obey. Which means they haven't got more power than you and me when we discuss this in a forum on the Internet.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Wrong once again (or well, it may be true in northern countries, given the comments I can read here). [...] Second, most people in France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, don't really care about their culture.

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Yes, most smaller countries get nothing out of the EU. Most smaller countries that voted yes to EU were fooled by propaganda. For the smaller countries, EU only causes problems. For the larger countries, EU has it's good points, that I can't deny.

I was a little biased to see EU from the perspective of the smaller members in my posts above, which weren't serious debating, just an outburst of rage over what EU does to the smaller countries. Anyway, EU might be a good idea for the big but the small should leave the union, or preferably be officially thrown out of it by orders from the bigger countries if the politicans refuse to let the citizens revote now that they know what EU really means for the smaller countries.

For the EU to be effective in the future it needs to be more controlled, it needs longterm goals, and it really needs more authority. All these things would improve the EU as a whole, but don't sit well at all with national sentiments, and thus with governments. As long as the EU doesn't have the power to enforce it's authority it will remain an ideal, a quagmire of bureaucracy.

The sad truth is that nationalist sentiments and EU authority cannot be reconciled; at some point we'll have to choose between the two, and that choice is proving extremely difficult to make.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

We are not a part of the EU and probably will never be a member. That does not mean we don’t have agreements or arrangements with the EU (EØS and Schengen).

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~:) As I said..... ~;)

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Besides, a union has never been good for Norway. We do best on our own.

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~:grouphug: ~:grouphug:

You are so...... Norwegian...... ~:grouphug:

As far as I can tell, the EU will use Eastern European nations as staelite states and slowly indtroduce the western cultures, so a big NO.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

We don't want that. The fact that I still live in my home country is because I like it's laws. Nothing could be worse than applying the laws of other countries to my country. Our laws won't be spread to the other nations, we'll be forced to use theirs. And why would we even want to spread our own laws? All countries have the right to have their own law and culture and should be respected.

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1) Don't use WE if you are talking about what you personally want.

2) The Parilament creates common Laws, which are then acted out by the National Gouverments. You Country does also have Represantants in the Parilament you may vote all five years.

However I'm sure you have never taken part in such an Election since it is all Lie. ~;)

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

What is the difference between Nationalism with a small country and Nationalism with a large union-country without democratic leadership? Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

The failure to respect people's need for freedom and preserving of their own culture and law will result in rebellions and civil war, which I'll personally take part in when they've grown sufficiently large.

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The European Union is no Nation. It has never been and will never become such.

It is a Confederation of 25 Nations who have created common Institutions. It touches Culture in no way.

But however I said it: Nationalists are ideologically unable to understand the resons for the EU and try to explain its existance with a fictious European Nationalism, which is the most sure nonsense.

The Background is the "League of Nations"-Theory by Immanuel Kant, not Nationalism. The European Union does also represent what Woodrow Wilson wanted to create on International Level.

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Anyway you should consider what kinds of people denie the European Union: the facist Scum.

Take a short look at this Poster

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

1) Don't use WE if you are talking about what you personally want.

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I speak for people in the smaller member countries.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

2) The Parilament creates common Laws, which are then acted out by the National Gouverments. You Country does also have Represantants in the Parilament you may vote all five years.

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The parliament can't create any laws at all. They can merely come with suggestions, nothing else. The fact that the EU has made a parliament without power the only thing you can vote for is an obvious attempt of creating a disguised elitist dictatorship.

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

However I'm sure you have never taken part in such an Election since it is all Lie. ~;)

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I did vote, but what did it change?

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

The European Union is no Nation. It has never been and will never become such.

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Define nation

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

But however I said it: Nationalists are ideologically unable to understand the resons for the EU and try to explain its existance with a fictious European Nationalism, which is the most sure nonsense.

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Where did I say I was a nationalist, because I'm not ~:confused: Please don't assume things I didn't say. By that logic, I could assume you're a nazi, communist and like human sacrifice. Oh my God, what a terrible person you are!

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Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker

Anyway you should consider what kinds of people denie the European Union: the facist Scum.

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That's not a very democratic opinion - calling all dissenters fascist scum. I don't see why not wanting the smaller countries to be in the EU has to do with fascism? Please explain.

Excuse me,Stefan Berserker but what do you mean when you say that people that are anti-EU are fascist scum?Please explain your wiew or should i just consider your statement as an insult?

Actually, both the right wing and left wing don't want the EU. However, it is totally different reasons why the wont have it.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Actually, both the right wing and left wing don't want the EU. However, it is totally different reasons why the wont have it.

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I think that you are right Sjakihata.The reason im anti-EU is that EU has a negative effect at the economy of the Nordic countries.If we look at the most competitive countries in the world we can see that the scandinavian economical system is already more developed then the central European system.Here is a link to a comparison made by WEF.From the top six you will find Finland n.1,Denmark n.4 and Norway n.5.Personally im afraid that the kind of pre planned economy what Bryssels would like as to have is too immobile for our little economys.In another words we will fall behind in the economic race.

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

I think that you are right Sjakihata.The reason im anti-EU is that EU has a negative effect at the economy of the Nordic countries.If we look at the most competitive countries in the world we can see that the scandinavian economical system is already more developed then the central European system.Here is a link to a comparison made by WEF.From the top six you will find Finland n.1,Denmark n.4 and Norway n.5.Personally im afraid that the kind of pre planned economy what Bryssels would like as to have is too immobile for our little economys.In another words we will fall behind in the economic race.

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For me it's another concern. Namely, corruption, centralized democracy etc.

The fact that a non-elected comission runs the show and that the parliament has almost no power (it has increased, not by much though) and all the money/corruption scandals lately, makes me seriously doubt the EU and it has no place in my heart.

Your reasons are valid Sjakihata.The EU has already gave us the benefits it can offer.I simply cant understand why in the next phase we should hand out our self-government.legistlation and right to choose,to a bunch of corrupted officials in Bryssels.Why?

The common market idea seemed ok - a european trade block would still have my backing. As for A European federal state - a polite no thanks from this Englishman. Force it on me and I'll dig out my flag and pitchfork.

Good on you Norwegians, poke 'em in the eye!

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

corrupted officials in Bryssels.

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We have to get rid of the corruption, not the new coming European federation...... ~;)