Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
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Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Country, yeah sure, but do mean State and Nation at the same time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
As for god, you cant take him away from me, since I never had him. Pride, yes, pride in myself, not in my country/state/nation.
How can there be any honor to fight for any country? All this nationalism is so silly. Most soldiers found themselves in a situation were they had to kill to survive. Just as simple as that. Most of them did not choose this. When your in combat everything is chaos and misery. What you tell the people at home - that is a different story!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
Does anybody think it was a honour to serve in the RAF. To attack Hamburg and burn civilists? To attack the dams to flood the cities?
All this admiration for soldiers here. What a contemptible point of view.
My old man was a tank commander with the Canadian Army in WWII and helped drive the Nazis out of Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
I admire his dedication and find nothing contemptible in either his action nor the admiration I hold for his efforts.
My Grandfather couldn't join the British army in WWII because of his feet... so he joined the Airforce... was a tail end charlie in Lancaster bombers and served in both Europe and Asia (Burma star) from 39 to 45.
One great uncle served in the Infantry in both Dunkirk and Normandy.
Another died in the sacking of Singapore. Wounded and hence bayoneted in hospital by the Imperial Japanese forces.
Another great uncle served as a Judge in The Nuremburg Trials.
The list goes on.
Beirut,Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I cannot judge what he did. There were soldiers who did great things and others who did increadible crimes. All I was trying to say is that I cannot not understand that gloryfication of soldiers in general or the soldiers of on nation in general.
I saw interviews of RAF pilots and crews. They fought for their country and against Nazi terror. But most of them were not proud of what they did.
Pape, it is amazing but it seems that only one near relative of mine fought in WW2. In 1945 he was 15 and was forced to serve for a few months as flakhelfer.
They were not the only ones. Just talk to veterans of any war; they are usually the first to stress the relativity of heroic tales. It is usually their offspring that brags about such things because it helps them make a splash in conversations. Most of them grow out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Considering that the forums are "Total War.com"'s (the name's a giveaway) it's interesting how many people here object to other peoples opinion that there is a certain honor or pride involved in fighting for... whichever side.
It's also interesting that some people here have no problem in recreating some of the worst genocides, cultural absorption and acts of bloodshed (often more brutal then in real history; as in "I just raze' em, see, no squalor"), but try to take the moral highground concerning more recent historic events. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it.
And yes it's a game. And yes the violence is not real, but instead based (loosely, sigh) on real events. However some of you still revel in the slaughter of their oponents.
You answered your own question. Virtual reality is not reality.Quote:
Considering that the forums are "Total War.com"'s (the name's a giveaway) it's interesting how many people here object to other peoples opinion that there is a certain honor or pride involved in fighting for... whichever side.
It's also interesting that some people here have no problem in recreating some of the worst genocides, cultural absorption and acts of bloodshed (often more brutal then in real history; as in "I just raze' em, see, no squalor"), but try to take the moral highground concerning more recent historic events. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it.
And yes it's a game. And yes the violence is not real, but instead based (loosely, sigh) on real events. However some of you still revel in the slaughter of their oponents.
As for being proud of military service.. War brings out the worst and best in people. If you've got a relative that was a good soldier, thats something to be proud of.
Heh, I hear/read many testimonies of german soldiers who weren't really proud of what they were doing.
In fact, it appears that a lot of german soldiers were ashamed by the things they had to do.
One should remember that most soldiers fought not for country, not for party and not for some leader. They fought for each other. The general soldier would give his life for his buddies, he would do crazy and brave things to save them.
One VC recipient I heard about from D-Day said, when asked why he charged two bunkers by himself: "I couldn't stand seeing my boys die." THAT is honourable, and it is honourable to all!!! He damn deserved that VC in my mind. When you go down to such basic levels the politics vanish and it is fight to survive.
There are two reasons why the green troops die first. Firstly they want to get accepted by the old guys, it is cold and scary on the outside. But they are also the ones with the most recent indoctrination and with no knowledge of the truth in war. They might indeed for a while fight for the party, then country, then perhaps the leader before finally settling to fighting for the guys.
Notice how Paps page mention how proud Hartmann was that he never lost a wingman. He cared more about his wingmen than he did for his own valour, he would have given it all to save a guy, and I'm pretty sure also his life.
Then there is the case of Rudel, the Stuka ace. When he lost his rear gunner he was devastated and he never really recovered, his battlerecord shows a sharp decline in efficiency after that.
I honestly doubt that many Lancaster bombercrews, in case they got a medal for outstanding service over Dresden would have liked it very much. They would have taken it, but inside it would have tasted bad. I'm pretty sure the Germans had similar cases (not that I say medals were handed out as a result of the Dresden bombings).
And about the Admiral Sheer and the entire crew getting the Iron Cross 2nd Class on 1st of April 41. Take notice that the ship had just returned from a raider cruise that lasted from 27th of October to that very date. A very successful one might I add. One that had carried it far into the Indian Ocean. When you think that the ship could not hide, was easily visible and had half the RN on its tail, I think that some sort of award was called for.
And who on board was braver than the rest? The captain, the gunners or perhaps teh lookouts? All their fates were intervined in case they failed. What happened to one would ultimately happen to the rest. And all their jobs were important in keeping the ship in working order, especially on such a long and hasardous cruise.
I was actually going to argue something about the subs then I saw this. That an entire units can't have performed the act. Well... Then you have obviously not served in the Navy. Today it would perhaps be too much as many positions are rather superfluous to a warship, but back then it was much more labourintensive. Even the captain's stevar was important that he had to make sure the captain got rested and was relaxed when not at the bridge. So if the ship did much more than ordered to and faced dangerous perils on its way, then a full citation would be in order.
And some never do. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Until now I left my grandfather out of it, but this...why this is almost an invitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
During the war he was directly responsible for the death of literally hundreds of enemy combatants (not dozens, hundreds). He has been inderectly responsible for hundreds more.
But he was never proud of that.
He was proud, however, not to resort to canibalism. And he was proud to survive 3 years of gulag.
I've grown up seeing my granddad brake down and cry for hours on every major holiday. Sometimes because of the things that happened to him. Most of the time because of things he was forced to do (by circumstance or otherwise). On all other days of the year he carried himself with dignity and purpose.
I began this response with numbers of kills. But it is not meant as braging. It serves as an introduction to a situation that non of us nowadays can comprehend.
Incidentally my other grandfather used his connections to escape military duty - even in 45. Which says a lot. Though he never killed anyone during the war (or after) ,his actions were, IMO, no less "heroic". But why explain that in a thread like this?