Riots in France?

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Now you have a point of view that I can't agree with: for you, the problem lies in the racism shown by the (white) frenchmen towards the arab community. For me, the racism lies in the problem caused by the arab community.

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I think the influence of years of racist attitudes is important, and the fact that government officials now seem to echo those attitudes only compounds the situation. I do not understand why you call 90% of the sururban migrants savages when 85% of them have work and only a small group of youths, and youths only, are actually rioting and destroying the cars, schools and shops of other, older migrants. This is clearly a problem of the migrant community itself just as much as it is a problem of the entire French society.

As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all. Oh, and don't fire tear gas into mosques, that isn't helpful at all. The BBC-site I linked to describes some of these initiatives. By all means, prevent the youth gangs and religious zealots from taking over community property, public space and social intercourse in those suburbs. That is the worst that can happen. People of good will should not be allowed to be intimidated by them (nor have their cars burned by them).

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

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As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all.

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Sounds like what we have been doing all the time. And it didn't work, maybe we should have tried that with the nazi's as well; I am sure that 6.000.000 jews would have survived if we had just given Hitler a little hug and a assesment course.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all. Oh, and don't fire tear gas into mosques, that isn't helpful at all. The BBC-site I linked to describes some of these initiatives. By all means, prevent the youth gangs and religious zealots from taking over community property, public space and social intercourse in those suburbs. That is the worst that can happen. People of good will should not be allowed to be intimidated by them (nor have their cars burned by them).

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Agreed. I never said we shouldn't do that, and I never said the solution would be to shot at each single migrant who show up at our borders.
My main point is that the guys who are actually rioting (and there's not only young people FYI) can't be helped, and doesn't deserve to be. They are some fascist scums who don't care at all about the society and they'll likely think that way until their death. I really don't see how we could change their mind. They have been brainwashed by years of islamic or ethnocentrist propaganda, by crappy anti-whites/cops/france rap, and nothing could heal that.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

And then ? What's next ? We wait for the next riot ? We just shut the **** up, say 'Okay, we're going to handle that quietly. That's not really serious anyway, they are just poor guys. It's not their fault afterall. The police shouldn't have visited this area' and sit doing nothing, which is usually what our political leaders would do ? I seriously don't like Sarkozy, and I'm not a fan of de Villepin, but call a scum a scum.

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There were issues with the way France has dealt with immigrants and their descendants; if your government would at least recognise such failings it would be a step in the right direction. Moving in riot troops when things are calming down, even a little, is only going to make things flare up all the more next time. If all the government offers is threat of force or force itself absolutely nothing is achieved, only alienation.

Much as it would displease the French people what is needed is a concerted initiative to improve the standard of living for such people, particularly with regards to education. The problem was ignored for far too long, was allowed to grow, and is the responsibility of the French government; cracking down on those involved with violence is simply a continuation of such ignorance, and does absolutely nothing to solve the problem.

A policy of improving conditions does need to be combined with proper law enforcement, effectively tackling those spreading hatred and discord. Simply offering compromises doesn't help, but neither does the threat of violence alone; a combination of the two is most important, applied at points in society where either is necessary.

Seems like they are having some fun in Denmark as well...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../posts?page=12

I wonder what all those racist french cops are doing in Vikingland?

This site looks like some extreme right stuff.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Try Tullamore Dew bottoms, they work fine for me! ~;)

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Kudos! Brilliant reference! World's best whiskey. Adrian, you just won a "pass" from me on your next outrageous viewpoint. The flavor...the smoothness...~:cheers: ~:thumb: :horn:

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently? Speaking not as a mod (I have no responsibilities for the Backroom) but as a patron, I think we really need to raise the standard here, people. Is it really necessary to start off a rebuttal by saying what you are rebutting is a "pile of excrement", Seamus? That's just effectively ensuring the person you are trying to rebutt will not engage with you on the substance of what you are saying. And personally, I think it is a pretty cheap way of trying to get around the "foul language" rule. Dave's post in the same vein was not even redeemed by having any substance. Adrian, your "smilie" to Redleg was just fighting fire with fire - and arguably targeting the wrong poster.

There was a time when I could read these threads without my blood boiling, maybe even post and get a decent exchange with Redleg, Adrian or whoever. This thread was informative, until people started being discourteous. I'd like to enter into an exchange with Menedil and El Slapper on the substance of this thread, but right now the bad vibes I'm getting from this thread are literally making me queasy and is putting me off attempting to do so. Similar things have been going on in the Iranian photo thread, the godless Brit thread where I might have liked to have posted but the tone of some of the posts just lowered the quality of the threads to the point where I was happier to see them die. It's just ugly and we should do better.

With these kind of issues we are likely to find the substance of what some others say ugly, even if they express themselves perfectly civilly and respectfully. We owe it to ourselves to try to respond to it in a polite civilised way if any. If we try to debate it in the ugly style displayed here, we may as well just be blowing raspberries at each other.

Maybe I am just being delusional, but I think we used to be better than this. I know we can do better.

~:grouphug:

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Hear hear.

This site looks like some extreme right stuff
Not at all , what ever gave you that idea ?

Would it possibly be this.....
and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!

It is a reliable unbiased account ~D ~D ~D
Still at least it isn't Skrewdiver eh ~;)

I take it the arab community has a high unemployment rate in france?

If the immigrants who are cuasing the problem are illegal ship them back to their country of origin, if not offer them a job, if they refuse ship them back. It works in the UAE.

Sometimes you have to screw democracy over to solve some problems.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by faisal

If the immigrants who are cuasing the problem are illegal ship them back to their country of origin, if not offer them a job, if they refuse ship them back. It works in the UAE.

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Unfortunately, it seems a large part of the Arab community in question is a second-or-even-third generation immigrants, i.e. citizens of France, born in the nation.

So, where to?

The problems of unintergrated "foreign" culture that is plaguing Europe in general seems almost unresolvable from my limited vision, and, even more unfortunately, most blames must be placed on bloody politicians of an earlier generation (the world without politicians is utopia, it seems...) who did not try to solve the problem while it still was new and mostly easy to solve.

Edit: after seeing Papewaio's post below, I must admit I really admire his wisdom now. :bow: Yet, the problem is, many would not cooperate. It would take an effort from the police, the public, and the government to successfully pass the hardest step, the first step: to gain the troubled ones' support. An effort that, it seems, need a figure of leadership so rare now in the world. I mean, how many politicians have you seen lately that actually gives the air of true charisma?

They are unemployed?

There living environment is run down?

Make them work helping to clean up their environment. In return they get to keep social welfare. Also give them extra options to gain employment via training them in useful skills. Have them apply those skills in their local enviroment so that they can gain real experience and be an asset to their community.

Remove the idle hands, and put them to good use. Welfare is not a lifestyle choice it is a short term solution. You don't use a hospital as a hotel. Social welfare is a two way street, and it should be for the benefit of society.

Notice how riots in europe's most anti-American pro-middle eastern nation (other than Turkey ~D) gets riots and America doesn't? Ironic, is it not?

Give a man an inch and he'll want to burn down your capital.

I wouldn't call banning headscarves pro-middle east.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

Notice how riots in europe's most anti-American pro-middle eastern nation (other than Turkey ~D) gets riots and America doesn't? Ironic, is it not?

Give a man an inch and he'll want to burn down your capital.

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Kaiser:

Far be it from me to defend France, but America has had riots among the chronically under/un-employed. I don't know how frequent a problem it is for France, though we are fortunate here that such riots happen only once every 15-20 years.

On the other hand, riots in the USA were even rarer prior to the development of the "social safety net." Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

On the other hand, riots in the USA were even rarer prior to the development of the "social safety net." Hmmm...

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What do you mean by that?

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Originally Posted by faisal

I wouldn't call banning headscarves pro-middle east.

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Are they in the middle east, liberating nations, or just threatening the liberator of nations?

Enough said.

And I have a question. WHO GAVE THIS NATION NUKES? (France that is). I MEAN....WHO?

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

What do you mean by that?

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That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

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Well said :bow:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth.

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These riots have nothing to do with France being pro-Arab, anti-American or socialist. France is not a socialist country, the president and government are right-wing and the suburban problems are by no means the result of socialism either. And in order to understand that there is no necessary connection at all, just remember that Britain has had similar race riots in the wake of decades of Thatcherism, whilst the United States has had its own race riots too.

It seems that today French politicians are finally recognising that their whole approach to the suburban problems has been wrong. The head of the Inner City Security Forum, MP Michel Marcus, has said this siatuation is 'a crisis in the relationship between police and the local population rather than an expression of suburban malaise. The police are the only public service that is not adapted to these sensitive areas. There is a problem with methods of intervention, of patrolling by car only, of abusive identity checks.'

The president of the Policeman's Union added his voice to statements that 'drive-by policing' has done a lot of damage and that 'close policing' is necessary to re-establish confidence among the inhabitants.

For those who read Civilised: Le Monde

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

Are they in the middle east, liberating nations, or just threatening the liberator of nations?

Enough said.

And I have a question. WHO GAVE THIS NATION NUKES? (France that is). I MEAN....WHO?

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The French government supported Saddam because it suited their purposes- not because they like Arabs (or Saddam, for that matter)

About who gave France nukes...that would be France. They developed their own under De Gaulle in the 60'ties if memory serves.

..May be just too late for the matter, probably already said but I just heard that it's been 8 days since riots started and some building was burnt down today as well..

May someone summarize the incident please - if you do not take me so lazy to read whole rich thread ~:) ?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

That socialism, like that in France, ...

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I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

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Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder

At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

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Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

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yup, just like the rest of tyhe world they see there own full blooded kind asd superior than those of another descent, plus if there system were as correct as i was intended to be it would be almost communist.

Well, proximity police would hurt of course, but if they create something like that now, they'll quickly turn into targets for the 16 year old gangster wannabes.
And we seriously lack policemen.

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.

Riots have spread too other places in France now... Dijon, Marsielle... I wonder when it will stop. ~:handball:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...ots/index.html

Yeah, just saw that on TV. Some people (Sarkozy included) are now saying the riots have been planned for a long time. Sounds like crap to me. They just found a reason to have fun.

I agree with faisal, if they make too many problems, just throw them out. If you don´t have enought policemen, get the military, european soldiers are underoccupied anyway IMO and can always use some training...

What’s really happening in France is that they are being invaded… again, this time by Arab youths. Lets hope they hold out longer than two weeks this time.
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