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I think most of the people who do great things for a cause, Are not really thinking about the cause at all.
Example
The medic who ran across the street twice in Mogadishu to save a ranger. I doubt he was thinking."WOW now we can feed the hungry somalis, and bring jeffersonian democracy to africa!"
Originally Posted by AdrianII:
Is that the best answer you can give? Can't debate on a topic like "moral courage" can you?
Green! :stare:
You people mean to tell me that if faced with the death of yourself or your family, you would rather see your family killed?
I am aware that this is a primal argument, but amplify it to a broader meaning.
Your family.
Your neighborhood.
Your community.
Your liberty and quality of life.
Your country- your only voice in changing law.
Your culture.
Are these not worth fighting, killing and dieing for if need be?
Would you not fight and kill another to see to it that your children can be raised without daily fear of imminent death? And if so, what makes your children so special? Why not fight so that others' children may be raised without imminent fear of death?
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
Most of what you list does not really have something to do with a "belief", does it?
You people mean to tell me that if faced with the death of yourself or your family, you would rather see your family killed?
I am aware that this is a primal argument, but amplify it to a broader meaning.
Your family.
Your neighborhood.
Your community.
Your liberty and quality of life.
Your country- your only voice in changing law.
Your culture.
Are these not worth fighting, killing and dieing for if need be?
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
It has everything to do with beliefs.
Most of what you list does not really have something to do with a "belief", does it?
Do you believe your family has the right to live? What if I tell you that I believe your family deserves to die because of your ethnicity or religion? Don't the Jihadists believe that they have a right (and moral duty) to deprive you and your loved ones of life?
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
To reduce that to a "belief" is quite a stretch. If you include the necessity to directly protect the life of you and your family in your definition of "belief" that this discussion is rather meaningless, don't you think?
Do you believe your family has the right to live?
Originally Posted by :
Than I would say that you are a prime example for what harm is caused by people who are willing to kill and die for no more than just a belief.
What if I tell you that I believe your family deserves to die because of your ethnicity or religion?
[QUOTE=Ser Clegane]To reduce that to a "belief" is quite a stretch. If you include the necessity to directly protect the life of you and your family in your definition of "belief" that this discussion is rather meaningless, don't you think?[quote]
So now this is an argument over what a belief is? Jeeze. Forget about it. That is ridiculous and not even worth debating
Originally Posted by :
All you did was take my sentences out of context. Some argument.
Than I would say that you are a prime example for what harm is caused by people who are willing to kill and die for no more than just a belief.
Just apply the logic here and respond to the totality of my argument, rather than look for small pieces that you think you can successfully atack without risk to your precious sense of self-preservation.
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
The age-old 'us military people' elitist mentality? I do respect what you guys do, believe me, but don't belittle the rest for not being in the military.
Thank God for people like Redleg, Gawain, Devastation Dave, and myself. Just a few who are willing to give it all up so that you can actually even have this debate.
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
Where did I take it out of context? You gave an example of somebody trying to kill my family, simply based on a "belief" (which is exactly the topic of this discussion) - and not based on an actual physical threat to himself or his family.
All you did was take my sentences out of context. Some argument.
I say that people like AQ are an excellent example where the blind willingness to kill and die for a belief leads to (Nazi Germany that you mentioned in a previous example is another excellent example).
Divinus Arma do you really belief that the people here, who are talking about standing up for your beliefs. Would not defend their homes and and families if necessary? To defend your mate and offsprings is an instinct rather then belief.
beliefs are more about values then survival.
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S:
I did not belittle you. My statement was meant to put the service members on a pedestal. You are not less. People who serve are simply more.
The age-old 'us military people' elitist mentality? I do respect what you guys do, believe me, but don't belittle the rest for not being in the military.
And so is a little black lady who believed she had a right to sit in the fornt of the bus. Or did all of you miss that point? I am not going to list every example, so I only list a few.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
As I said, address the totality of my argument, which is (And try to read all the sentences in this paragraph):
Where did I take it out of context? You gave an example of somebody trying to kill my family, simply based on a "belief" (which is exactly the topic of this discussion) - and not based on an actual physical threat to himself or his family.
I say that people like AQ are an excellent example where the blind willingness to kill and die for a belief leads to (Nazi Germany that you mentioned in a previous example is another excellent example).
Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?
Pretty simple point, if you ask me. Don't feed me your "oh, well if they didn't believe that, then I wouldn't have to stand up for my beliefs" garbage. Your point is moot. My argument remains. So which is it?
Originally Posted by kagemusha:
Sure. Plenty of people stand by while their rights are taken away. Same is true for defense of the family. Some would cower in fear for themselves first- plain and simple.
Divinus Arma do you really belief that the people here, who are talking about standing up for your beliefs. Would not defend their homes and and families if necessary?
Originally Posted by :
I disagree. It is an inclination, yes. Instinct? I don't know and neither do you unless you have empirical evidence to prove that Humans have such an "instinct". But I won't argue this point, because I will never win and neither will you. I will argue that defense of one's mate is not instinctive at all. Define "mate" somebody you know? Another person? A study was once done where researchers asked children: "If your dog was drowning and so was a stranger, who would you save?" The Children almost always said their dog. Thus proves it is learned behavior, not instinctual.
To defend your mate and offsprings is an instinct rather then belief.
beliefs are more about values then survival.
So, you might defend your immediate family. What about your neighborhood? What about your community? If you were in Iraq, these people in your community would be your tribe; a greatly extended family. Would you defend your "tribe"? At what point do you abstain from your neighbor's defense.
I argue this: You and I are no better than one another or our neiughbor. I argue that your right to liberty is equal to my own, and so to with our neighbor. And so to with all humanity.
If you think you are protecting something by joining the millitary you are simply naive. You are pawns to men of thought and devious nature.
I plan to join the military eventually....byz am i an evil pawn now?~:joker: What you said just seems like an excuse not to join.
WOW I gues the minute men did not defend their country at lexington and concord ,they were john adam's evil pawns.
Originally Posted by ceasar010:
Nope, just a very cheap one. ~:joker:
I plan to join the military eventually....byz am i an evil killer now?~:joker:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
Well, I would appreciate if you would not put words in my mouth and I suggest that you chill out a bit as you obviously get so worked up that you fail to read what has been posted.
As I said, address the totality of my argument, which is (And try to read all the sentences in this paragraph):
Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?
Pretty simple point, if you ask me. Don't feed me your "oh, well if they didn't believe that, then I wouldn't have to stand up for my beliefs" garbage. Your point is moot. My argument remains. So which is it?
Where did I say that "garbage" that I emphasized in the quote of your post?
Nobody here said that he wouldn't stand up when the life of his family would actually be threatened, that's just a strawman that you have been creating in your very first post.
Standing up against a direct threat against your own life or that of your family is just that - it is not standing up for a "belief".
Standing up for a "belief" is what the "jihadists" in your example are doing.
Simple as that - no taking out of context - just directly replying to your post (as before I would like to add).
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince:
If you think you are protecting something by joining the millitary you are simply naive. You are pawns to men of thought and devious nature.
I won't even dignify your post with a respectful reply. You will never know how protected and vulnerable you really are, little one.
Well Divinus.I have given the military oath when i entered My countrys army.To defend my country from enemies outside and inside.And i honour that oath. My country doesnt accuire my services to fight in Iraq or anywhere else. If Any army would attack my country, i would defend it and die if necessary.So there is your answer. What im saying that i dont think that this thread is about that.I think its about your beliefs more moderate way. Someone sayd somewhere long a go , that all men loose heart sometimes. There are situations in normal life that you know things happen while you know its not necessary right,but you still let them pass you without doing nothing.
For example if you have a good friend and he is cheating his wife/girlfriend who you also know but not that well as your friend.Will you tell the girlfriend or keep your moth shut? And which option is right according to your beliefs?
I dont agree with divinus completely but he does have a point. There are some beliefs worth fighting for (I still have a hard time with the sacrificing your life for part though)
For example
Would you fight to stop the x ideal from spreading? So you DONT have to defend your families and homes from them? IE stop them there before they get here.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
You replied to my statement by arguing that people who seek to take away your rights are the problem. Your argument implied, whether you intended to or not, that if they did not have this belief then there would be no need to stand up for your own.
Well, I would appreciate if you would not put words in my mouth. Where did I say that "garbage" that I emphasized in the quote of your post?
I'll defer to you. Clarify your point.
Originally Posted by :
I read it all. And I'm chill. Like ice. Or... ice.
and I suggest that you chill out a bit as you obviously get so worked up that you fail to read what has been posted.
Originally Posted by :
A direct threat? Perhaps. An indirect threat? No, I think many here have clearly stated that this is a "gray area". And you still have not answered my argument.
Nobody here said that he wouldn't stand up when the life of his family would actually be threatened, that's just a strawman that you have been creating in your very first post.
Originally Posted by :
I am not going to argue what a belief is with you. Read this again:
Standing up against a direct threat against your own life or that of your family is just that - it is not standing up for a "belief".
Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?
Edit (to respond):
Originally Posted by kagemusha:
Good for you. Agreed on all points.
Well Divinus.I have given the military oath when i entered My countrys army.To defend my country from enemies outside and inside.And i honour that oath. My country doesnt accuire my services to fight in Iraq or anywhere else. If Any army would attack my country, i would defend it and die if necessary.So there is your answer. What im saying that i dont think that this thread is about that.I think its about your beliefs more moderate way. Someone sayd somewhere long a go , that all men loose heart sometimes. There are situations in normal life that you know things happen while you know its not necessary right,but you still let them pass you without doing nothing.
For example if you have a good friend and he is cheating his wife/girlfriend who you also know but not that well as your friend.Will you tell the girlfriend or keep your moth shut? And which option is right according to your beliefs?
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
Oh? I live in Canada. I don't need protection because people around here are rational. In a peaceful state a strong army or militia is more of hazard then anything any enemy can conjure up.
I won't even dignify your post with a respectful reply. You will never know how protected and vulnerable you really are, little one.
Also give it up, protection of loved ones comes naturally, it's not standing up for anything. Standing up for a belief is like protecting values that you hold dear, which is why you shouldn't stand up for beliefs most of the time. This is not to say you should bow down to the other's belief, because then you would be automatically standing up for another's belief.
PS: It is my belief that you should shut up.
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince:
Gee.~:rolleyes: My point is made.
PS: It is my belief that you should shut up.
ahhh, my joke is made ~:rolleyes:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince:
ahhh, my joke is made ~:rolleyes:
~:rolleyes: until you agree.
-Devastation Dave
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma:
Simply, bollocks
My statement was not? meant to put the service members on a pedestal. You are not less. People who serve are simply more.