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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
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Undesireables? If you mean SS leaders, Gestapo and all those criminals - not yet. Regarding KZ - Jews, politlcal criminals (beside Nazis) - yes. All prisons are now guarded by Wehrmacht soldiers. They guanrantee food and medical care. And they are under the control of the Interior Minister, a democrat. However, they are still not free!
K. thanks. I saw the part about food and medicine and changing of the guards, but didn't interpret that to mean that the killing had stopped. Even Autzwitz had a medical bay for the prisoners, not very good but there was one.
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Manstein is still in the fog. He is just leader of the easern armies. Kanzler is Goebbels!
Oh, right. Don't know much about Goebbels, other than he has a wife and a lot of kids. The wife dated a promonent zionist for a while, btw.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I think we have to be careful that we don't judge events with the benefit of hindsight of what happened after the war - ie the cold war etc. We have to view it in the circumstances of the time. Why should the allies - ie UK and USA suddenly change sides and throw in with the Germans against the Soviets. Germany has been waging a savage war against all of Europe for nearly 4 years, their horrendious treatment of the occupied countries and the Jews is already well known and all will remember that the Prussian Militaristic tradition which has taken over from Hitler was the driving force behind WW1 and every town in England has a memorial to that folly. Manstein's actions are those of a desparate man who knows he and Germany are loosing, so like a desparate football club chairman, they have sacked the manager and now hope that every thing is all right. The no conditional surrender stance adopted by the Allies was based on sound political reasoning - they wanted to ensure Germany was completely beaten and that it's militaristic stance was completely smashed. The UK and USA were no doubt worried about Communism, but were happy to see the Germans and Soviets exhausting themselves in their struggle on the Easten front.
So my stance remains the same - the Allies would not take the foot off the pedal, but would press home the advantage where ever they saw the opportunity - a strong Germany means more trouble in the future, and I am sure they would grab any opportunity to beat Germany into surrender. Churchill had his opportunity for peace with Germany to let them fight Communism in 1940 and he choose to fight on when all looked hopeless - so why should he give up now, when Germany is on the ropes.~:cheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
The question is, what are the Allies fighting for, isn't it? The answer may not be the same for the UK and the US.
As far as I see (but please correct me if I am wrong)
- Churchill does not want to have a fascist Germany
- He does not want to have a German domination
- He wants to have balance in Europe
- He wants to make sure that there will not be a WW2
- He wants to keep the British Empire as a dominant power in the world
- He does not want to have an increased Soviet influence
- Roosevelt wants to secure Britains independance
- end fascism
- make the US the dominant power
- increase the power of the US industry
- avoid losses of American life
- maybe somekind of UN under US dominance to avoid further WWs.
- a cooperation with the Soviets
- Stalin wants to get his country back
- revenge
- control of central Europe to secure his empire
- being recongnized as equal partner of GB and the US
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Franconicus
Seems on the money to me - maybe we need a similar list for the Germans - or is their wish simply to stop the war because they see nothing but defeat in the long run. Trouble is - in the words of Basil Faulty - "you started it, you invaded Poland"
The more I think about this, the more difficult Manstein's position is. To preserve Germany, he needs to return to 1939 borders, "say sorry" - ie massive demilitarisation, disbanding of most his armies, some form of justice for the victims of German aggression and oppression and some form of economic redress - but learning the lessons of post 1918. But this is probably too much for him or anybody to do - from a tradition point of view and the inevietable opposition from the significant portions of Germany who still believe in their invincability. Also would that be enough for the Allies?
Perhaps Manstien needs a significant gesture to back up his position - how about giving up Italy? - It doesn't have a great strategic use - as opposed to say Romania with its oil - and there is a natural defensive line along the Italian border. Also, the power vacuum and resulting chaos might distract the Allies for some time.~:cheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Right!
This could be the position of Germany based on the assumption that the war is not lost.
1) Germany wants to have a peace.
2) Germany should verted into a democracy, a moderate one. One man one vote, but with limitations for the smaller parties and laws against radical groups esp. communists. Maybe even a kind of 'House of the Lords'?
3) Territorial aspects: Keep Austria, this is German! Keep Sudetenland, as it is German too. Get the territories in Poland that were lost in WW1. Maybe Poland can get some compensation. Maybe a weak claim on Elsac and Lothrain. You could ask the people there.
4) Keep the other nations in the east and southeast as small as possible. Insist on the right of every nation to have a state. Esp. the Balticum, Balcan, Slowakia ...
Lessons learned from WW1: That is an issue for the allies too! What are their lessons learned? Kill as many Germans as possible and then reduce industry to a 3rd world country? Not good for exports! Weaken them, demilitarize them - not good for a strong democracy. Did not work after WW1.
So what is the vision of Churchill? I know he would not have mind if all Germans were killed, but I guess he would not have been pleased with Central Europe being empty and open fot the Sovites.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
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Originally Posted by Franconicus
So most of you want peace talks. At least one success for Manstein! But that leads to a couple of other questions:
1. What would be the requirements of Roosevelt for making peace?
2. What would be the requirements of Churchill?
(I know very well the position of the Germans and I can guess what Stalin wants!)
3. Include Stalin
3.a. Yes
3.b. No
3.c. Churchill and Roosevelt wouldn`t care if Germany goes on fighting the Soviets.
4. Postpone the attacks on Sicily and the bombing?
4.1. Yes.
4.2 No. Proceed as planned
4.3 Increase the attacks! This will show the Krauts that they have no other option than to do what the Western Allies want.
I know a lot of questions. Maybe I can give you the next chapter tomorrow!
Ok.Here are my answers:
1. I think that the main consern for US is to get peace in Europe and to secure its markets there.
2.For Churchill,during this war the GB have realized the power of US and they will shift their main alliance from France to US,no matter the outcome of the war.So basicly if the Germany can make peace with the US.GB will come along.The best way to assure US of Germanys intentions would be to resingn the alliance with Japan.
3.) option c) We still have to remember that GB and France were very close of declaring war to Soviet Union on Winter 1940,because of the Soviet war against Finland. Also the first reaction from US in the start of Operation Barbarossa,was not very shocked at all. We have to remember that we are not talking about which country likes witch but these are real politics.Cold calculations.
4. option 1. We have to know what is happening. If germany would just retreat from every where what would that do to political balance of the Europe?Do we want to have an Soviet occupation on whole of the Eastern Europe,if Germany is ready to pull of from Western Europe. What about the Northern Europe?
There are lot of tough questions there.As from the Western Alied point of wiev.If we have an option to stop the war with the Axis and regain the territory that Germany have occupied without fighting it back.Why should we not take that option.If Germany would continue to fight the Soviets, they would not have the resources to attack the Western Europe again. We have to remember that Germans have not invaded most of the Eastern Europe.Infact those countries are their allies.And about the Poland.Also Soviet Union invaded Poland. And the Baltics,Romania and Finland before the Operation Barbarossa. How i see this,this is the perfect opportunity to control the Soviet ambience without declaring war to them.Also we can control the Germany because they cant go on fighting Soviets without our industrys help for a long time. The best possible outcome from this could be that the Soviets and the Germans exhaust them selves fighting eachothers and finally leave the Western allies as the most powerfull factor in the Europe.:bow:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
PREPARATONS
4th July. Now that the situation at home is stable you fly back to Russia to meet all commanders of the Heeresgruppen, Luftflotten, armies and squadrons in the east.
“Gentlemen, you all received new orders in the last days and most of you may be confused. Well let me explain our plan.
We expect the Russians to attack soon, maybe within the next two weeks. The Russians have most of their troops at the Kursk area, so most probably they will attack at the seam of HGr. Mitte and HGr. Süd. There is little doubt that the center of the attack will be in the south. Please do not cherish any illusion – the Soviets will want to bring about a decision and they will carry everything they have to the south.
The main shock armies will be the Central Front, the Woronesch Front and the Steppe Front. Central and Woronesch have in total 1.3 million soldiers, 3,400 armored vehicles and 19,000 guns and grenade launchers. Steppe is weaker. They have 600,000 men, 1,200 tanks and 9,000 guns. These three fronts are supported by 2,400 planes.
As you see the Russians are strong, at least at numbers. That should not worry us much. We know that our tanks are better. If the new models and the modifications of the old model IV keep the promises the advantage of the Russians is compensated. We have a remarkable lack of infantry, especially mobile divisions, and a lack of artillery, especially heavy guns. The Russians have a huge advantage in ATGs.
We must keep in mind the Russians have better weapons and equipments than during the last years. Their moral is good and the commanders of the fronts are very experienced. However, most of the units come straight off the training camps and the soldiers and the lower ranks have never seen a battle before.
In the air the Russian dominance is not that big. We should be able to cancel this.
The strategic goal of this operation is the destruction of the Russian offensive armies in the south. This should give the new government the leeway to find a diplomatic solution.
The name of the operation is ‘Catalaunian’. It is divided in several phases. Phase 1 is operation Goth, the redeployment of our armies to the Gothenwall.
I want to thank General Kluge and General Model for the excellent planning of operation Goth. Model will give you now details.”
“Thank you, Feldmarschall! Gentlemen, let me start with some changes of the organisation. The commander of the 2nd Army is the new military governor of Ukraine. For the upcoming operations the 2nd Army will be under my command. The army will get some reinforcements: Two Romanian divisions, which will form together with the 1st Hungarian the XXXI. Army Corps. Additionally it gets the XX. Army Corps of the 9th Army.
Operation Goth consists three steps:
1. Shortening of our position. Currently 4th army is clearing Bryansk. The retreat of Charkow bow is prepared. 1st Tank Army and 6th Army will retreat to the Gothenwall as soon as there is a Soviet attack.
2. This releases our tank formations and we will pull them back. I know that our lines are very thin then.
3. Finally all our armies will take their positions at the Gothenwall.
I know that this is a very complex operation. Discipline and mobility are the key to success. Be aware that the Russian will attack you during your manoeuvre with superior tank and air force units.
You find the complete operational plan on your desk. Do you have any questions so far?”
Mackensen, commander of the 1st Tank Army: “Model, do you really think we can execute this manoeuvre while the Russians attack?”
“Yes, although I know it will be tough. But some units are already on the way and we have probably another two weeks before the Russians attack. I know it will be tough but if you get in trouble Army Group will find a way to quarry you out!”
“Why do you think we can beat the Soviets? They have so much more tanks and armored vehicles than ever before. Their divisions are fully motorized with brand new American trucks.”
Manstein stands up and smiles: “That is right! That will lead to their disaster!”
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Finally Zhukov has made up his mind. If the Germans are in confusion and starting to retreat then it is time for a massive and decisive strike.
On July 9th he presents his plan to Stalin and the Stavka:
“These are the Fronts that will participate at the operations:
Bryansk Front (Gen. Popow)
Former Central Front (Gen. Rokossovsky) renamed to Belarusian Front
Former Voronesz Front (Gen. Vatutin) renamed to 1. Ukrainian Front
Former Steppe Front (Gen. Konew) renamed to 2. Ukrainian Front
Former Southwestern Front (Gen. Malinowski) renamed to 3. Ukrainian Front
Former Southern Front (Gen. Talbuchin) renamed to 4. Ukrainian Front
North Caucasus Front (Gen. Petrow)
Goal of this operation is to destroy the German tank reserves, to encircle the HGr. Süd and HGr. A, to liberate the Ukraine and Belarus and to reach the western borders of the USSR.
The objectives are Gomel, Kiev, and Odessa.
The Fronts are renamed according to their objectives. Belarusian Front and 1. Ukrainian Front will start the invasion. Once they break through the German lines the 2. Ukrainian will join the attack and take Sumy. These three strong fronts operating behind the German lines will force the Germans to deploy their reserves. So two weeks after the beginning of the operation a big tank battle is expected north of Sumy. At the same time Bryansk Front in the north and 3. Ukrainian Front in the south will join the attack and break through the German lines too. Once the German tank divisions are destroyed Belarusian and 1. Ukrainian Front will march towards Kiev. 2. Ukrainian will cross the Dnjepr at Tcherkassy. Bryansk Front will cover the northern front and march towards Gomel. 3. Ukrainian will attack Charkow and then march to Dnjepropetrowsk. It will cover the southern flank. 4. Ukrainian will attack as soon as the German try to withdraw the 6. Armee. They will besiege Stalino. North Caucasus will put the German forces at the Kuban under pressure. Air armies and Black Sea Fleet will support the operations.
In a second phase we start to cut off the German southern army groups. 1. and 2. Ukrainian will go south to reach the Black Sea at Odessa. Belarus will cover their northern flank. 3. Ukrainian will meet 4. Ukrainian at Saporischja. Then 3. will march along the northern border of the Dnjepr to reach Cherson. 4. will march along the southern border with the same objective. North Caucasus will execute naval landings at Crimea and Odessa. Once this is done the complete German right wing is sacked.
Stalin listens to the explanations of Zhukov. Although he does not understand all the details of the plan he realizes that - if the operations are successful – the Germans will loose big parts of their armies and he will get back White Russia and the Ukraine. “What is about the north? Don’t we attack there, too?”
“No”, Zhukov replies, “once the German forces in the south are crashed their northern position will collapse all by themselves. We will be able to disperse them easily. Our plan can only succeed if we focus our armies at the left wing.”
“When will the operations start?”
“July 18th. The units need time to reach their positions.”
“All right! What will be the name of this operation?”
“Kutusow!”
Stalin is pleased with Zhukov’s suggestions and accepts them. ”Zhukov, I want you to coordinate the attack of Belarus, 1st and 2nd Ukrainian. You are responsible for the success. The other fronts will be steered by Stavka.
After the meeting Stalin talks to General Timoshenkov: “The Americans and the British suspended their deliveries. They pretend to have logistic problems. We have to consider that the Anglo-Americans might change sides. I want you to make a plan for this. You know we need all troops to fight the fascists now. But we can prepare everything to fight the other imperialists too.”
Now Zhukov has to take care about the tactical details of the operation. From recon reports he sees that the Germans have at least two lines of defense. At least the first one seems to be quite thin. Many positions are filled by Hungarians and Romanians. The reports tell that there are still many transports from east to west.
How are the Russians starting their attack?
- After artillery fire attack with tanks and infantry. So they will easily break through the German lines.
- Attack with infantry and artillery only. That is enough. In case that there is a German counterstrike or some German tanks the air force will do close support. The tanks will be needed as soon as the Russians broke through.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
#1
That is the usual Russian doctrine. Employ the strongest attack right away, unless topography and such are in the way of the tanks.
The Russians got 'scared' when they suffered those impossible losses eariler in the war by using infantry supported by artillery. They know that tanks lessens the losses for the attacker.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
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Originally Posted by kagemusha
Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)
Sorry, kagemusha san, Here is a short cesura before we can start ~;)
HUSKY AND THE PEACE PLAN
July 14th. Red carpet rolled out at your HQ. Guderian and Galland come to visit. They want to get information about the upcoming fights at the eastern front and want to discuss news from home.
You tell them the preparations are in schedule. You received a Soviet radio massage giving a code word to the partisans. You expect the Soviet operation within a week.
Guderian tells you about the allied landing at Sicily. They have a huge advantage in numbers, especially in planes and ships. Italian navy did not fight at all. Most army units run. The German Panzerdivision and Panzergrenadierdivision stopped the chaos and are now retreating to the mainland. Even though the invasion could not be prevented things are not so bad. Guderian thinks that the German troops can hold the front in southern Italy for a while. Due to Student’s paratroops the Italians are still fighting. Kesselring is the new commander for Italy.
After all the loss of Sicily is not a severe disaster. A landing at Greece would have been worse because it would have affected the eastern front directly. So Guderian can even remove the 1. Panzerdivision from Greece and send it to Russia.
Italians will retreat their army from Balkan. German mountain infantry will replace them with Russian auxiliaries and Bulgarians.
In the Reich the situation is under control. The SS is disbanded. Berger did a good job. 432 former SS members were executed immediately. More than 7,000 were captured. Guderian finally had to stop the operation. The captured were pardoned. They are now in so called probation companies and have the chance to redeem them. Half of them is on the way to Naples, the rest is on the transport to Kiev.
The KZ guards were replaced by Wehrmacht’s units. They are on the way to the front, too. They will reinforce Hausser’s SS Corps.
Berger is now leading the transformation of all other SS formations to combat units. In six weeks the first units will be sent to the front.
Ameluxen is busy reorganizing the police. He is trying to get as many former officers as possible. The situation in the KZ is worse than expected. Wehrmacht now tries to give every prisoner enough food and medical care. All work has been stopped.
This of course is a problem for Speer. He already has a severe lack of workers. Guderian and you decide that the POWs of the upcoming operation should be asked whether they volunteer for work in Germany or for the Russian Liberation Army.
Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:
1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
to adjust future conflicts,
to create more wealth through a common economy,
to fight communism
Guderian wants to have a media campaign showing the crimes of the Nazis. If this is done he will disband the NSDAP and fill all political positions with members of former democratic parties. Goebbels will resign. He will do it if Guderian guarantees him safety and exemption from punishment. Then a big victory against the Soviets and the peace initiative will be send to Roosevelt and Churchill.
So once more it is evident that the victory in the east is the main precondition for the success.
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WASHINGTON AND LONDON
Media celebrate the successful landing in Sicily. Undefined sources of the White House are quoted. They say that war in Europe will soon be over. Roosevelt will soon find an agreement with Germany.
The papers praise Roosevelt’s wise strategy and call him the greatest president of all times.
Stalin sends a letter to Roosevelt and Churchill. He congratulates to their successful landing. He is very impressed of the naval superior in the Med and expresses his hopes that the landing in France will follow soon.
He also reminds the western leaders that the Black Sea is Soviet sphere and that activities of the western allies in this area would not be according to the alliance.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
The Allies aren't going to agree to that, but hey, to get what you want you have to aim higher from the outset.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Which parts do you think they wont agree to?
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
2, 3 and 4... They will need to be tweaked at the very least.
They don't want to make it so that it payed off for Germany to have gone to war like this. Effectively it is peace that says Germany won.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I think we can find an arrangement about 2 and 4. Isn't 3 an opportunity for Poland. Maybe better than things went in reality?
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I agree with Kraxis. This is something we can start with.I think that the Allies demand that Germany have to pay for the GB,France and the Occupied Countries compensations.
I also think that the whole Poland situation should not be concluded in the peace process because Poland is also in war with Soviet Union.( A smart Stategig move would be to try to make a ceparate cease fire with the Polish.That would leave the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in a difficult situation in their relationships).
As for Austria, this would be a good time to show that the new German leadership is found on democracy.We could promise the Western Allies that the Austrians could vote whether they want to be a part of the Germany.If the cease fire is signed.~;)
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
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Originally Posted by kagemusha
As for Austria, this would be a good time to show that the new German leadership is found on democracy.We could promise the Western Allies that the Austrians could vote whether they want to be a part of the Germany.If the cease fire is signed.~;)
Actually they already did that with the Anschluss... It might not be very well known but those elections were 'fair'. What wasn't fair was how the election was forced onto the Austrian government with threats and how the Nazis were rather aggressive in the street prior to the election, but they were comparably silent on the night itself (by the standards of the day, even by other Western standards, it was a quiet election).
I don't think the Allies might be that inclined to try to get money out of Germany, but they will not want to pay for what Germany did. So Germany will have to pay the lesser countries itself. Since Germany actually rebuilt France and the Allies haven't bombed it back to the Stone Age yet there is little more than pride to go for there. One could say that Germany has already paid France (the French will of course object strongly but are of little consequence and are in general ignored in these cases).
3 isn't much of an opportunity for Poland really as the areas in the SU that could rightly be considered Polish are vastly smaller than the areas lost to Germany. The 1914 borders would be almost over Warsaw and the entire Polish industrial capacity would be lost as well. The Poles would not go for this.
A fairer claim would be to demand a referendum, the Germans in Poland still remain and few new Germans have moved in yet. This would likely result in the Danzig sector falling to Germany and some limited gains along the southern border. This would satisfy both German and Polish demands to an extent. Poland gain a lot in the east and loses fairly insignificant areas in the west.
This should of course be offered up on the second round as a "we have made a compromise, now it is your turn."
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
I agree with Kraxis. This is something we can start with.I think that the Allies demand that Germany have to pay for the GB,France and the Occupied Countries compensations.
I also think that the whole Poland situation should not be concluded in the peace process because Poland is also in war with Soviet Union.( A smart Stategig move would be to try to make a ceparate cease fire with the Polish.That would leave the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in a difficult situation in their relationships).
Clever! One problem is that there is no Polish partner for those negotiations. Doesn't the Polish government sit at London. Of course Germans could install one, same will Soviets do. But the Allies would never respect a seperate peace treaty. Like they ignored the ceasefire between Germany and Vichy!
kagemusha, the German government discussed your proposal regarding giving up territory to show good will all night long. Retreating from Italy would lead to nothing. Italy is not occupied country but more an ally. So German troops in Italy are surely not a root for this war. Giving up France? Petain would gain control but the Allies would attack him soon and his army would change sides. So as a result the Allies would rapidly stand at the Rhine. And the war would have been lost.
Giving up Poland would be a strong sign, because that is the main reason for this war. But how can that be done as long as the German armies are in the middle of Russia?
So leaving Russia is the only option. But before the government makes this desicion it has to think twice about it!
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
KUTUSOW
July 22nd, briefing at the HQ of Vatutin, commander of the 1. Ukrainian Front. Zhukov stands in front of his Front Commanders: “Comrades, let me give you Stalin’s congratulations to the successful opening of Kutusow. Konstantin, can you give me more details about the progress of the operation of Belarus and 1st Ukrainian?”
“Yes, comrade Zhukov! As you know it started to rain at July 17th. Due to this and the bad condition of the streets not all units and equipment reached their positions in time. But the rain also covered our preparations and helped us to take the Germans by surprise.
The operation was opened by our air force on July 17th. It bombed Konotop, a railway station 70 km behind the front, to interrupt the German connections to the rear. As soon as night fell the partisans started their operations. They assaulted the railroad network and managed to interrupt it more than 300 times. The traffic in the whole area is still blocked. They also attacked Konotop. They managed to penetrate and there was street fighting all night long. When the new day came the partisan retreated and left a destructed and burning town. However, due to short preparation time not all groups were able to reach their operational area.
At the crack of dawn of July 18th our bombers attacked the fascistic airfields. They were very successful. They destroyed more than 200 planes. Until now there are only little activities of German planes over the battle field. However, the night before our attack the Germans bombed Kursk at sundown. They used fire bombs. They repeated their attack twice that night and the quarters near the station was aflame. The railway facilities were damaged and many depots burned down.
At 5:00 a.m. the artillery started firing. 3,000 guns joined the bombardment, including heavy artillery and Katyushas. We had managed to bring all guns in position. However, we did not have as many shells as we planned. Time for preparation was too short. So the drumfire had to end after three hours. Then 60th and 70th army of Belarus and 38th and 40th army of 1st Ukrainian started to attack at 8:15. According to the plan the infantry had close support by the tanks. They overrun the first German line of defense. Losses were low, very low. The German artillery was soon silenced by our brave ground attack aircrafts. In the afternoon we hit the second German line. After a short strike of our artillery the assault teams attacked again. This time the German resistance was much stronger. Their infantry was supported by ATGs and assault guns. We had to regroup and attacked again. At sundown we broke through. Raiding patrols kept fighting the whole night through and in the morning the German resistance collapsed completely.
The Germans are running away. Information from POWs give us a good picture of the enemy. Belarus fought the 35th Corps and 1st Ukrainian the 31st Corps. 31st was formed by Romanian and Hungarian infantry. It does not exist any longer. 35th had severe losses and is now retreating across the Desna. Prisoners told us that the Germans have orders to retreat to a so called Gothenwall.
At July 20th Belarus advanced to Glukhov and took the town. Now it is moving forward to river Desna. We will reach the river tomorrow.”
Vatutin adds: “1st Ukrainian will reach Konotop this evening. We already succeeded to advance 70 km. This will be the first objective. Our initially plan was to reach Konotop at August 16th.
In this first phase the Germans lost 30,000 men, 30 ATG and more than 200 planes. 1st Ukrainian and Belarus lost 800 men, 18 ATGs and 47 tanks. Our air armies lost 67 planes. Germans 2nd Army is on the run and not able to stop our advance.”
“Excellent”, Zhukov is pleased. “Konew, how is the 2nd Ukrainian doing?”
“We started our operations at July 20th, when the other fronts had managed to break through. We started a frontal attack on Suny. We had to fight the 13th Corps. Unlike everywhere else, there was heavy resistance and we had to clear every single street. Fighting is still going on, but we control 70% of the town now and we will clear the rest until July 24th.
Due to the heavy fighting we lost 9,000 men, 8 ATGs and 32 tanks. Germans lost some 20,000 men.”
“All three fronts did a very good job! Stalin is pleased. Before we discuss how to go on let me tell you news from the other fronts.
Germans left Orel. Popov’s Front took the chance and occupied the town. This is an outstanding success. Germans are also retreating from Belgorod and they take back the Mius front. 3rd and 4th Ukrainian follow them.
There is also news from the intelligence. Our special agent tells us that the Germans started to pull back their armies from Russia. Churchill forwarded an intelligence report telling that the Germans position big formation behind the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev. And German newspapers tell stories about a so called Gothenwall, which will protect Germany from all attacks of the Soviets.
So, comrades! This is the situation today. Now I’d like to hear your opinion how to proceed. Nikolai Fyodorovich, what do you think? ”
Vatutin thinks or a while before he answers: “Our biggest problem is not the German army or the German air force. Both are not able to slow our advance. The problem is the infrastructure. The streets in the operational area are bad, hardly sufficient for civil purpose. Now they have to carry three fronts with 2 million soldiers and thousands of tanks, trucks and guns. The railroad net is slightly better. However, after all the destructions from both sides it collapsed completely. It will take at least two weeks before it will work again.
So my proposal is to put the tank formations in front of our army groups. They can operate despite the bad streets. Let them chase the crippled 2nd Army. We can catch it before it reaches the Dnjepr.”
Rokkosovsky agrees: “Nikolai Fyodorovich is right. We must catch the 2nd Army before it reaches the Dnjepr. But what is even more important, we have to cross that river as soon as possible. Isn’t it clear that the Germans try to built a new line of defense along the Dnjepr. This must be the ‘Gothenwall’. We have to break through before they have time to entrench.
So this is my proposal. Let me and Belarus attack along the southern bank of the river Desna until we reach Kiev. Like Nikolai Fyodorovich proposed the tanks formation will advance as fast as possible while the rest follows. Let Konew’s 2nd Ukrainian do the same in the south. Let Vatutin’s 1st march slow behind the German 2nd Army. Do not put too much pressure on them. If everything goes right we can cross the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev and attack the town from the rear. Then we catch the 2nd Army, too.”
Konew disagrees: “Why do you want to change the plan? Didn’t we agree that the German tank formation would start a counterstrike if we march west? And that we have to keep our forces together to win this decisive battle? Why divert? We haven’t seen a single German tank so far. Let’s keep the armies together. Let’s have the combined force of tanks, infantry and artillery. Let us slowly move forward to Kiev. Once the German tanks are beaten we can still chase the Germans.”
What will Zhukov decide?
1) Let the tanks off the chain and chase the German 2nd Army?
2) Let the armies in the north and south speed up while Vatutin will slow his march? Try to cross the Dnjeor as fast as possible and cut off the German 2nd Army?
3) Follow Konew’s advice. Slow down the advance to keep the armies together and to be prepared to fight a German counterstrike?
What are the orders for the air armies?
a) Attack the 2nd Army and stop her retreat.
b) Support our spearheads. This includes protection, recon and support attacks.
c) Cover all edges. Fight any German plane and tank which tries to approach our armies.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:
1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
to adjust future conflicts,
to create more wealth through a common economy,
to fight communism
.[/I][/B]
Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick. Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!! Overall, this proposal leaves a far too stronger Germany and it would not be acceptable to the West. The best plan for the US and the UK is to let the Germans and Russians slug it out and for them to pick up the pieces. Also, what about Poland. Considering that this what the UK went to war for, are they likely to accept the German puppet state that is proposed? - I don't think so. For the purposes of the story, there is nothing wrong in the Germans proposing it, but I think it would make the west more likely to dig in and hold on for unconditional surrender.
As for the russian choices - this is difficult. I think 2 for the ground forces and 3 for the air. The key is to cross the Dnjepr - this must be the basis of the German's defence. No point of going hell for leather for the German 2nd army - it is mainly their allies and poorer quality- getting over the river is key and the close support of the airforce will be the Russians eyes and shield. If the Gothenwall is compromised, the masterplan is undone. ~:cheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick.
Hope you are well now! Do you agree with the chosen Soviet tactics?
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!!
In 1943 this is not so obvious. Germany still occupies most of Europe. The industrial potential is bigger than before and its main armies are still unbeaten - despite Stalingrad and Tunis. If they cannot win they will try do make a remis at least.
On the other hand: German government needs the agreement of the German public. And it has to avoid a situation like after WW1. So all critical issues have to be solved - especially with Poland.
Poland has a very difficult future. 1939 has shown that an alliance with France and Britain will not save the country if it is attacked by Germany or Russia. So it has to ally with one of both. Not an easy choice.
Germany has to avoid that Poland allies with Russia or with France. So it will be very difficult to find a stable order in Europe, regardless who wins.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Clever! One problem is that there is no Polish partner for those negotiations. Doesn't the Polish government sit at London. Of course Germans could install one, same will Soviets do. But the Allies would never respect a seperate peace treaty. Like they ignored the ceasefire between Germany and Vichy!
kagemusha, the German government discussed your proposal regarding giving up territory to show good will all night long. Retreating from Italy would lead to nothing. Italy is not occupied country but more an ally. So German troops in Italy are surely not a root for this war. Giving up France? Petain would gain control but the Allies would attack him soon and his army would change sides. So as a result the Allies would rapidly stand at the Rhine. And the war would have been lost.
Giving up Poland would be a strong sign, because that is the main reason for this war. But how can that be done as long as the German armies are in the middle of Russia?
So leaving Russia is the only option. But before the government makes this desicion it has to think twice about it!
I think we should contact the Polands refugee government in London. I understand the stand of the German government.And the option of retreating from Russia is not even a option how i see it.If we retreat the SU says thank you stupid Germans and follows our retreat into Berlin.~D What we need to do is to get the contact to Western allies and start negotiating.And in the East we should teach the Russians a lesson of Mobile Strategig defence.Maybe after that the Western allies also will revaluate their plans concernig our faith.~:)
Options for the Russian Attack:
Options 1 and 2 would be exactly what the Germans want.I choose option 3 keep the Attack together and use our numbers.If we get separate,the Germans destroy our spearheads.
Orders for air armies option c)
It seems that the Germans are using their Allied forces as a bate. The casulties on Soviet side are simply too low.:bow:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Options for the Russian Attack:
Options 1 and 2 would be exactly what the Germans want.I choose option 3 keep the Attack together and use our numbers.If we get separate,the Germans destroy our spearheads.
Orders for air armies option c)
It seems that the Germans are using their Allied forces as a bate. The casulties on Soviet side are simply too low.:bow:
Remember that the Russians are highly impetuous now... Trying to hold them back would result in chaos. The units are poised to strike. Russian doctrine is everything for fast advacnes, trying to do somethign that would fit the British more would not be very effective. The Russians simply aren't trained or used to this.
Don't forget the impact on morale... Now the morale is good, but the Russian soldier is fickle and will break if he doesn't feel it goes well.
The Russians have learned a lot from the Germans in terms of strategic movement and capturing slower enemies, their days of gung-ho charges and linear attacks are gone.
Btw the losses should be considered somewhat inflated. It was good for promotion if you could supply the leaders with good results, and for lesser officers there would be only one way to do that, present good number of kills to own losses. Even these Marshalls weren't immune to it, and it is also why it is hard to use the Russian souces for actual losses.
So given all these things there can only be two real options.
That is 2 and b.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Let me summarize! We have 2c, 3c and 2b.~:confused:
Zhukov would be pleased if you could find a common approach!
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Let me summarize! We have 2c, 3c and 2b.~:confused:
Zhukov would be pleased if you could find a common approach!
I think that Kraxis is saying preety much the same as me - my air approach is to use the airforce to guard my flanks and watch for the elusive German armour, which could be the same as protecting the spearheads. if it helps Zhukov make his mind up, I could change to 2b.
I also think that the Germans main aim is to establish a strong defensive line on the Dnjepr, not necessarily to engage in a large mobile battle with the Russians - better to retreat to a strong line with the armour intact, than to risk a mobile battle with the Russians and loose the Dnjepr line. The Germans would like a victory, but time is more important.~:cheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I base my thoughts of the German strategy mainly on this little sentence from from General War Marshall Von Mannstein:~;)
“Why do you think we can beat the Soviets? They have so much more tanks and armored vehicles than ever before. Their divisions are fully motorized with brand new American trucks.”
Manstein stands up and smiles: “That is right! That will lead to their disaster!”
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
You all are right. Maybe you can discuss this over the weekend ~:cool:
Zhukov can postpone the decision until Monday!!
Here is another part with another difficult desicion ~D
THE ISLAND CONFERENCE
In the shadow of the dramatic political and military changes Roosevelt and Churchill meet at the Island Conference on July 23rd. Their attendants are the US generals Eisenhower and Marshall and the British generals Montgomery and Alexander.
First topic on the agenda is Husky. Everything goes according plan. The allied forces demonstrate their ability to execute huge and complex landing operations. Husky will bring new conclusions for further operations.
Next they discuss the situation in Russia. The Russian invasion was another surprise. Stalin did not tell anybody in advance. It looks as if the operations started very successful. German armies withdraw to the Dnjepr. Roosevelt thinks that this is very good news because it means that the war in Europe may come to an end soon. Churchill has another view. If the Russians manage to break through the Dnjepr line too, then nothing will be able to stop them. They will reach the Romanian and Polish border before winter. Churchill feels the need to start a western operation as soon as possible to minimize the communist influence on postwar Europe.
At this point the generals were asked to present the military options. Eisenhower says, that a big part of the fleet, especially the special landing vessels currently are bound to operation Husky and planned operations at the Italian mainland. Same applies for the air force. So at the moment Husky requires so many resources that another immediate operation cannot be done.
If the operations in Italy are done according the plan the resources for a new big amphibious operation will be available in spring. If the operation against the Italian mainland will be cancelled another operation could be started in autumn.
The staff discussed several scenarios. According to Churchill’s proposal they investigated the pros and cons of an operation against Bulgaria. Due to the undecided position of the Turks and the clear opposition of the Soviets this plan does not seem to be feasible. The fast advance of the Soviets could make it senseless.
An operation against Greece is very difficult. The territory does not promote a fast advance. It is very likely that the Russians will invade Poland and Romania while the Western Allies still fight through the Greek mountains.
The American staff still favors an operation against North France. It would have the support of the whole air force and once the troops are landed they can easily advance to Germany. However, France is still occupied by strong German forces and the preparations haven’t even started. So the big operation will not be possible before 1944. However, a small scale landing could be done, very similar to the Dnjepr.
The British staff favors the Italian option. Land at the Italian mainland and push north. This would make the Italian government collapse and finally lead to Germany too.
After this presentation the two heads of governments adjourn to the drawing room to have a face to face discussion. Churchill seems to be very depressed: “Husky was a big mistake. We simply bet on the wrong horse. How could we know that the Russians would be able to break through so quick? If the Germans cannot stop the Russians at the Dnjepr they will roll over central Europe. And there is nothing we can do about it.”
“You see pink elephants, Winston!” Roosevelt replies. “Uncle Joe is our ally and Jerry is the enemy. Be happy that the war will be over soon. We will find an arrangement with Uncle Joe. After all we have done to support him.”
“After all the blood and pain the Russians paid in this war he will not want to make arrangements. And if he can sack Central Europe he does not have to. We started the war to protect the independence of Poland. What do you think the Soviets will do when they banished the Germans?”
“O.k.! So what can we do? What if we increase the air raids and make a small scale landing in France. That would be at least something we can do.”
“Yes sure! But that would weaken the German and help the Russians!”
“So what would you propose, Winston?”
“We have two options. We can let the Russians take Central Europe and hope that they will be willing to accept our wishes. Realistically this means that we betray the Polish. Or we try to find an arrangement with the Germans. They should know now that they are in trouble. Maybe we can find a good compromise. But that would mean that we betray our Russian partner. I cannot say that I like one of these options. But I guess we have to make a decision right now. Do not forget that the bombardments will soon reach a new dimension.”
Churchill and Roosevelt are well aware that they have to decide now and that their decision will change the future of Europe and maybe the world:
- Enforce the attack against Germany. Increase the air raids and make a small scale landing in France and proceed in Italy. Make an announcement that you will not accept anything less than the unconditional surrender. Now that you are on the street to victory you do not have to make a compromise. This would be a strong signal to the American public, the Russians and the German government that the western allies are not going to change their way.
- Break off the friendship with the Soviets. Stop all attacks against Germany and make tell them your conditions for peace. This way the end of the war would be a compromise instead of a victory, but it might save Central Europe from communism.
- Do the best to catch up the Soviets: more intense bombing, accelerated operations in Italy and the landing in France in spring 1944.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
This is a tough decision to the Allies indeed. Do we want to crush Germany and let the Russians become the most powerfull factor in Europe?And if the Russians brake the Germans at Dniepr,where will the Russians Stop? I would choose the option number 2.Simply becouse the communist dictatorship sould not take over in Eastern and Central Europe.
First conditions for Germany if it wants a ceace fire should be Braking all ties to Imperial Japan.Stop supporting the Fascist government of Italy.Retreat from France and the benelux countries.We have to remember what we are talking about here is not an alliance with Germany but possible peace treaty.Even Stalin is not that mad that he would declare war on us if we break of from the Alliance with the Russians.Let the Germans and her allies fight with the Soviets and later if it seems necessary we can take action on one side or another.:bow:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I would plump for a version of 1. The allies need unconditional surrender or there will be 2 powerhouses in Europe not 1. Central Europe is lost whatever happens - Poland is either as a German puppet state while they fight on against the Russians or is a Russian barrier state against the west. So up the bombing, land in France as soon as possible and don't bother with Italy - it is a sideshow. I would also work on Vichy - talk of war crimes trials for helping with the extermination of the Jews if they do not declare for the Allies etc. Also would the British and American public really go with a betrayal of the Russians - who had been lauded as heroes for the last 2 years for their fight against Facism - especially to join forces with the evil Germans who have bombed us and slaughtered millions of civilians. We shouldn't let our knowledge of what happened after the war colour how we tell the story, we should try to think as people did in 1943.~:cheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Sorry King Kurt i have to disagree.Nations cant afford to think whats good or evil.Instead what is the best intrest of the Nation.Under the Nazi government Germany never even officially sued for peace.Becouse there was a lunatic in control.Destroying of Germany should not be the aim what ever the conditions.If you put yourself in the boots of Churchill or Roosewalt,would you not like two powerhouses in the Europe that are hostile towards each other and the Third western European powerhouse who would only benefit from this situation,becouse it would rise them for the most powerfull of the three?:bow:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
2. Break off with the sovs. Churchill knows they are terrible, as does a large chunk of America(Patton to name onem I think). Just because RDF made the naive and gulible choice in otl....