But Lord Ichi, where did those seven rounds go if not in the target?Quote:
Originally Posted by ichi
:surrender: "Ichi! Stop! This is the bathroom - The range is over there!"
Printable View
But Lord Ichi, where did those seven rounds go if not in the target?Quote:
Originally Posted by ichi
:surrender: "Ichi! Stop! This is the bathroom - The range is over there!"
The problem with registeration is that it makes it easier for the gov't. to confiscate guns if they decide to ban a certain type of gun. Some states are eager to ban guns, even after they've promised they won't.Quote:
I still don't see the problem with registration. The argument that it will be used to confiscate "legally owned" guns is wrong, since if they are being lawfully confiscated they aren't legally owned and if they are being unlawfully confiscated you will get them back.
Darn right. Of course, if there's no register in the first place, it is much less likely guns will be banned.Quote:
It seems to me someone who opposes registration is saying, in effect, if some of the guns I own become illegal in the future I want to carry on owning them illegally.
Yeah those pesky Americans and that pesky constitution, what with people wanting to be free and standing up for themselves.Quote:
Being charitable this may all depend on the rather odd American attitude to thweir own government, but I'm not too sure someone thinking like that should be given any firearms licence.
Crazed Rabbit
It's just this strange definition of freedom you have. IMHO the rule of law is an essential part of free society, and people running around saying we would rather not register our guns because if we do a democratically mandated body following due legal process might try to take them away, just is not contributing to "freedom".Quote:
Yeah those pesky Americans and that pesky constitution, what with people wanting to be free and standing up for themselves.
My two cents anyway.
I think it a very strange definition of freedom that you have, if you let the government decide what freedom is.Quote:
It's just this strange definition of freedom you have. IMHO the rule of law is an essential part of free society, and people running around saying we would rather not register our guns because if we do a democratically mandated body following due legal process might try to take them away, just is not contributing to "freedom".
A democracy, after all, can take away freedoms just like a dictatorship. FDR was following due process when he interned the Japanese, Lincoln was when he suspended habeas corpus, the south was when it took almost all rights from blacks. Was the civil rights movement 'not contributing to freedom' when they protested against that due process of law in the south?
Crazed RabbitQuote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
I think I would describe it as the people rather than the government deciding.
Some, at least, of the example you give are what is know as the "tyranny of the majority", and it is generally accepted, I think, that the mere fact that a view is a majority view does not necessarily make it right, even in a democracy.
Of course it doesn't make it wrong, either.
I do, though, struggle to equate what happened when my (Iranian) father in law was turned away from a whites only hospital in the South in the early sixties with a suggestion that if you choose to own a semi automatic rifle you might care to register it. I'm just not going to buy the idea that the civil rights movement raised the same issues as possession of military spec firearms, sorry.
Yep And I am going deer hunting this week end.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
They did in that they both demonstrate how the democracy doesn't always do the best thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
For reasons already discussed, registeration doesn't help with criminal cases, and the gun owner gets nothing out of registering his gun. He is forced to do something though he has harmed noone, in an action that will bring no benefit to society, and that could easily be used to take his freedoms.
In the end, why register? Are there any good reasons? And don't list any of that old 'if you've done nothing wrong...' line, which Stalin probably told the Soviets when he got to power.
Crazed Rabbit
That's begging the question. My point is everyone would agree that turning someone away from a hospital because of his skin colour is wrong, and not something a democratic vote can legitimate. Asking someone to register his guns is a rather more marginal call. Its the difference between having a cancer and having a nosebleed.Quote:
They did in that they both demonstrate how the democracy doesn't always do the best thing.
On the other question, assuming that there are some controls on gun ownership (and IIRC correctly there are,) then registration enables you to check they are being complied with. If Bubba registers his AK47 and a check shows Bubba is a felon, you can go and visit Bubba. (Because Bubba has an AK 47 the taxpayer will sadly have to pay a lot more for the highly trained and equiped SWAT team that is needed for the visit, instead of the one cop who could otherwise have done it, but hey, if you want to pay higher taxes that's your right.)
Now you may say that gun shops or local police are supposed to do this, to which I will say that people are supposed to do lots of things that they don't. Or you may say well, Bubba will just get the same gun illegally, but I hope you won't, because the fact that criminals will commit crimes anyway isn't much of an argument against the existance of criminal law.
Firstly, 'assualt weapons' are used in less than 3% of all crimes, so this is mainly just a academic excercise.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
We already have instant background checks on gun purchases. So he wouldn't be able to legally get an AK-47 in the first place. And when he got his gun (90%+ chance of him getting it illegally), why would he be so amazingly stupid as to register it? You're making the mind-boggling assumption that he'd obey the law.
You're right in saying that the fact that crimes will always happen shouldn't discourage us making laws against crimes. But the legal possession of an unregistered weapon doesn't hurt anybody, unlike a mugging or robbery. Registeration laws are aimed at illegalizing an activity that doesn't harm anybody in an alledged* attempt to make crime more difficult for criminals. But criminals don't follow the law, and its unenforceable since they police won't know they have weapons if they don't register! So all that happens is a perfectly harmless activity is deemed illegal, the law abiding are beset with more burdens and it has no effect on reducing crime.
*Alledged because usually its just the anti-gunners trying to make confiscation easier.
Crazed Rabbit
your right on most accounts but youre views are aimed almost copmpletely twards rifles and larger scale weapons (i think) while they are to conspicuos to use in a crime. but there are always those idiots who have no right yet still carry the concealable pistol. regulations on rifles can be limited as they are at less risk of being used in vicios assault but let thiose handguns be monitered at all times lest they fall into the wrong hands fore unfortunatly many will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
@English assassin,
It seems you cannot think outside your own perspective? It seems you are a little stuck on yourself there. :bow:
Sadly, registering stuff can be used as a first step to "illegalizing" something, it shouldn't right? It should be used only for good, rational, logic purposes, like you like to think it should, but that's not always the case and certainly not how politics can be driven.
This procedure was used to ban Airsoft guns around here, instead of fighting crime, fighting the causes of crime, and fighting the criminals, the State decided to fight Toy Guns because every now and then a petty thief manages to rob someone with a cheap water pistol, since nobody reads or searches the internet to learn how a real Firearm looks like, they fall on this trick, and it is much easier to tell you are "fighting crime" by banning something instead of actually moving one finger.
The ban on Airsoft Guns was completely collateral, the semantics used in the law prohibit highly expensive Airsoft guns which cost a fortune because they look like real guns but leaves out BB guns which are not "realistic enough" but are actually far more dangerous and much more usefull in an actual robbery.
For the record, petty thieves continue to rob people with crappy cheap toy guns from time to time.
I'd like to remember you the world is larger than your own neighborhood ~:grouphug: , what looks normal to you may not be acceptable somewhere else, for instance, I would never eat at an English restaurant, I think English cousine is pure crap, if you ask me I wouldn't serve it to my dog, if I had a dog that is. But to you it may be perfectly natural and logic to eat British food. ~D
So, erhm, remember there is more to it than natural logic and think about the collateral damage. ~:cool: ~;)
And for the record, idiots like this continue to make people like me more and more anxious to have very strict controls on who is allowed to buy a gun:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardo
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968793972154
It says you have to register....can you give a brief summary please?
Sorry about that:Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toronto Star
People will kill each other no matter what. Ban guns and they will use them any way or use a bat or something.
In the USA guns are used by women with restraining orders often. In fact they make up a large percentage of the "incidents" with guns and ccw. Would you want to disarm them? Or the old man who carries a 38 snubby.
Many of you anti gunners say "I don't care I know karate" Or "I know how to use a katana" and my favorite "I am 6'7 280 pounds and all muscle"~:joker: well I'm sorry to say were not all Jackie Chan~:rolleyes:
I never saw you say that goof but I see it quite often when gun control comes up here and other places.
That mother of 4 should have had a gun....imagine if they got in there, They'd probably cap her and her kids too for helping the poor guy.
If some one is willing to do that why wouldn't they be willing to get a gun of the black market?
I didn't say anything about banning guns. I was talking about having very tough restrictions on who can buy guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
So Goof - who should be allowed to purchase guns?
Me I have no problem with that IE
No one with out citizen ship
No one with a (violent) felony
But if you start with the only some types of guns, only so many guns, no hi cap mags, registration, You become my enemy:duel:
Up date the AHSA has not givven me an email back, Its only been 3 days though. Lets give them soem more time.
It's more who shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. Here are a few of my suggestions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
1) Anybody who has not taken some sort of a gun safety course.
2) Anybody who has a criminal record.
3) Anybody who is a documented alcoholic or other substance abuser.
4) Anybody who has had any history of mental illness.
5) Anybody who does not either own a gun vault/safe, or is willing to leave his/her guns in a vault at his/her gun club.
6) Anybody who can't wait a reasonable "cooling off" period, say, 7 days or so, before buying their first gun.
I think that list would be a good start.
I am also in favor of strict gun registry and licensing. Mainly as a tool to be used against people who own "illegal" or "black market" guns. My plan? Simple: Anybody who is caught with an unregistered firearm in their posession goes to jail for twenty years. No chance of early release. No questions asked. Anybody caught selling guns illegally? Life in prison with no chance of parole. Ever.
Don't you think that might get a lot of dirtbags off the street? If just owning an illegal gun was enough to get you sent away for a long, long time?
But if you're a law-abiding citizen who's willing to register your guns? No problem. Buy and own as many as you want. Fully auto? Semi-auto? Handguns? Shotguns? No problem. Fill your boots.
Just keep them in your safe. And don't you dare try selling them illegally to try to make a few extra bucks...
Crazed Rabbit: could you explain why registering guns does nothing (0.0) to help solve crimes? If I were to think of a simple example, what if the police finds a corpse and forensics determine the victim was killed with a 0.45, it could help if the police were to know wich of her friends/collegues/other people who knew her owned a 0.45 pistol.
Well, that would be a problem of governments being able to pass stupid laws, and their ability to lie and get away with it. I assure you it's not limited to the US.Quote:
The problem with registeration is that it makes it easier for the gov't. to confiscate guns if they decide to ban a certain type of gun. Some states are eager to ban guns, even after they've promised they won't.
However, I do believe that I have to behave in accordance with the law even if I think a particular law is stupid- that's part of the foundation of a working law state. There are democratic ways to change such things. Is it wrong of a government to promise not to ban certain guns, and do it anyway? Yes, of course. Does that make it right for people to keep these certain guns illegally? In my opinion, no.
[QUOTE=Goofball]It's more who shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns. Here are a few of my suggestions:
Quote:
1) Anybody who has not taken some sort of a gun safety course.
I don't need a darn saftey course, I learned from my dad when I was 5 and he learned from his.....and *gasp* I never shot any one. Gun saftey is not rocket science.
When ever you get one check the action.
If you aren't shooting dont have it loaded.
Don't point it at any one; or any thing you are not willing to destroy.
Do you really need to pay to go to a saftey course for that?
Depends on the crime~;)Quote:
2) Anybody who has a criminal record.
What if they clean up their act? Which I recently found out happens more then I thought~:cheers:Quote:
3) Anybody who is a documented alcoholic or other substance abuser.
I don't like this, some studies say that over 50% of americans are metally ill...which is obviously BS, but this could be used by the gun grabbers to stop a normal guy from buying a gun.(most of these "illnesses" are people using defense mechansisms or just stressed out~:rolleyes: obviously they get over it quick and are not going to kill any one)Quote:
4) Anybody who has had any history of mental illness
Bad Idea how will you enforce it...have the gestapo uhh I mean peace officer raid my house once a week. And what if I can't afford a safe? (there is a difference between a sheet metal gun cabinet, and a safe/vaultQuote:
5) Anybody who does not either own a gun vault/safe, or is willing to leave his/her guns in a vault at his/her gun club.
Quote:
6) Anybody who can't wait a reasonable "cooling off" period, say, 7 days or so, before buying their first gun.
Thats ridiculous. There is a law in some states like this...the brady campaign thought of it. If it was in my state all it would do is make me REAL angry....do you want a bunch of angry gun owners~D (do you mean all guns or first gun)
And what about full autos?
Yes, pistols are used more often, but the total uselessness of registration still applies.Quote:
your right on most accounts but youre views are aimed almost copmpletely twards rifles and larger scale weapons (i think) while they are to conspicuos to use in a crime. but there are always those idiots who have no right yet still carry the concealable pistol. regulations on rifles can be limited as they are at less risk of being used in vicios assault but let thiose handguns be monitered at all times lest they fall into the wrong hands fore unfortunatly many will.
I'll agree with you on 2, providing it's violent or serious crime (writing a bad check can get you barred from owning guns), 3, and 4, providing the mental illness is a severe one, and not just facial tics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
I also agree on the strict prohibitions on knowingly selling guns to people who can't get them legaly, and the long sentences for owning guns illegally. However, I also believe that we don't need registration laws to achieve that. If a person owns a gun illegally, which can easily be determined be finding out if they could buy one legally.
This would have the same effect on throwing criminals with guns in jail for long times, without the bad side affect of throwing away non violent people who hadn't harmed anyone. See my earlier posts for more arguments against registration.
On your recommendations for requirements for buying a gun, I'd have to disagree with the one about taking a safety course for simply buying a gun. I would support the gun store giving a short lecture on proper gun handling, along with a booklet with the gun on proper safety practices.
The requirement for a safe is also one I'm against. Having to store your guns in a safe makes it very hard to use them in self defense, and can be a very expensive way to get one handgun.
Finally, I'm against 'cooling off' periods because it doesn't stop criminals from getting guns (since they wouldn't get them from a store) and makes it hard for a person to get a gun if they need a weapon for defense from an immediate threat (rioting or stalker, for example).
Crazed Rabbit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder
No use at all for that. a plain old 45 slug doesnt say much.
there is
45acp
45 gap
45 long colt
etc
Add that with hollow points, plain old lead, full metal jackets, tracers, steel cores, and all the different grain weights and Just knowing its a 45 doesn't help much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Its all in the manual for the gun. I remember on my taurus on EVERY page in the manual in big red letters it had. "Keep it pointed in a safe direction" or something like that.
All manuals have the 4 rules in them.
Well suppose if they find the empty cartridge or the bullet itself, then what? (I imagine it's insanely hard to determin a wound is caused by a .45, if you don't have either of them)
You've indirectly strenghtened my point: because there is such a variety on guns and ammo, it's actually easier to narrow the suspects down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder
My point is they won't be able to tell which one it was. SO all registration causes is government intrusion.
Though I respect your knowledge on these matters, I do disagree here. Weight, bullet composition, and rifling marks can narrow it down quickly if the person has the right information.Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
Also, the gun safety rules are as follows:
1 - All guns are loaded. Always.
2 - Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4 - Never shoot at a shadow or a sound. Know your target and what is behind it.
There are more, but there are the Big Four.
into my 'shootin car' (three more payments and its mine!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
http://www.terragalleria.com/images/us-sw/usnv9198.jpeg
Yeah I know those seem to be the official nra(what every one follows)rules...but they are just common sense IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I don't know much about ballistics and all that (I don't reload yet) But how can you tell the difference between a gap and a acp in a wound? They can even be loaded to the same pressure.