I guess the lesson learned here is don't announce you have a bomb on a plane, then run away and ignore Air Marshals, then reach into your bag, which you just announced had a bomb in it.
Crazed Rabbit
Printable View
I guess the lesson learned here is don't announce you have a bomb on a plane, then run away and ignore Air Marshals, then reach into your bag, which you just announced had a bomb in it.
Crazed Rabbit
I know it hurt you to say that, and I love it!!! Thanks for the link in my inbox BTW, that will probably be me in 20 years or so!!! Bookmarked!!! LOL :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Oh, please, oh please! Do share it with us! :jumping:Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Sorry, I can't, the mods don't want it posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
So 20 is your ceiling, you American wimp? And that would be cough syrup, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Honestly, thanks for your invitation, Dave. But I'll be visiting an academic for a couple days and that'll fill my entire schedule. It's in 'Boastin' so I'm looking forward to the waterfront and lobsters.
:bow:
EDIT
Sorry, that should be 'lobstis' of course...
my cousin took me to a bar, last time i was there. it was on the waterfront, it had the best damn surf and turf ive ever had.. ill email her tonight and see if i can get a name for you... enjoy boston and try enjoy some of the sights, theres a lot of history in that town.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Thanks man. You find out anything, please post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrock
:bow:
I'm worried about the two, thank you. Even if he was a criminal, because he wasn't, he's still an human being an saying things like "I've no simpathy" for him is pretty harsh. And that's exactly what I was trying to say, many people think the person is guilty before innocent, that's implicit in your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Should I need to be in terapy, just for be worried about how humans usually manage situations? I'm still surprised to see people stating that the security is fine. Not just about the scanning made before boarding, but also...Did anyone in the service ask to the man if he had any condition? If he took the pills? Did the marshalls know that?
Other questions that are less important: How much time does it takes to grab a man before he reaches the bag? Or if he reached it: How much time before he puts his hand inside?
If you shoot a man in his arm and he's still moving: Can you shoot him again? Or you should shoot to kill always?
Also there's an investigation going on, as I've heard, perhaps there's more to this.
As someone already stated - if your a law enforcement officer and you decide that the situation requires you to fire your weapon - you fire it to stop the individual. Center Mass is where most of the training for firing weapons is currently structured toward - or it was in Oklahoma about 5 years ago when I happen to know the head investigator for the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation - the agency that often gets involved in investigating police shooting within the state of Oklahoma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
I understand you point about shooting to wound - however I don't believe it is feasible or even reasonable to expect law enforcement shoot to wound only. The decision to use the weapon is what must be evaluated - once the weapon is drawn and and the decision is made to fire - the officer really only has the choice to shoot to stop the suspect. That is also what the training primarily consists of - to shoot into the center of mass to stop the suspect, which also avoids many of the possiblities of hitting bystanders. (Not completely of course)
However you can shoot one of the lungs, that will not kill him, it will cause perhaps an irreparable damage, but not death, and lungs are pretty big. I wonder where do they shoot to kill? Chest mass is pretty big: Do they shoot directly to the heart (a hard target I suppose?) Do they shoot to the stomach? To the liver? This are trivial questions of course, I still think this is too much and this could have been prevented before, but I've to ask it to make it more clear for me. I'll also add that the example of the can wich provoqued a few voices almost mocking it here, was just an exageration to make the shoot at point blank or a close range one more accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
I also think that there must be some other technology wich can stop the subject without handicaping or killing him.
Not sure what you are after here - shooting center of mass puts the bullet hitting the body in the vicinity of several vital organs - where the shock of being hit by the bullet will often stop an individaul wether its a fatal shot or not. Not many people that are not hop up on drugs or aderline can take a bullet in the center of their body and continue moving. According to the investgator I knew - most law enforcement officers are only as accurate as their training has trained them to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Not many that do it quickly without some severe problems for the individual.Quote:
I also think that there must be some other technology wich can stop the subject without handicaping or killing him.
News article update with some information coming from the passengers on the plane.
http://www.comcast.net/news/national...08/280197.html
The Air Marshalls acted correctly. It's a sad business, but there was only one way it could end. Statements like this, however:
... are just disgusting. Gloating over the shooting of an insane guy is just wrong, even if he posed a danger, and even if you tag a smiley on the end. The sentiment is unchristian, uncharitable, unworthy and unamerican. But hey, the smiley makes it all okay, right?Quote:
Removed by DD
Soulforged, this wasn't like any other situation, where a man might pull a knife or even a gun out. All you have to do to set off a bomb is push a button, and wounding won't stop the bomber.
It's easy for you to sit there with the benefit of hindsight, knowing the man was harmless, and argue that the Marshal should have acted with less than lethal methods. However, none of what you suggest would have stopped a bomber-and the bomb would have gone off, killing many.
Its regretable that this man was killed, but the Marshal had to act as he did.
Crazed Rabbit
That's quite an ego you've got there. ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
The only decision to be made was whether to shoot or not, once the decision had been made to shoot then the guy was already dead.
I suppose they could have shot all his fingers off so he couldn't pull a trigger, then shot him in the leg so he couldn't run away or failing that you could live in the real world or find out something about the subject before preaching.
Sleeping darts don't work immediately and rubber bullets are a deterent, nothing more.
Chest mass is chest mass, it gives the opportunity to hit any of the organs in it.Quote:
Chest mass is pretty big: Do they shoot directly to the heart (a hard target I suppose?) Do they shoot to the stomach? To the liver?
Nothing that I've heard of that the benefits outweigh the risks. But if you can prove me wrong I'll pass it on to the relevant people in the British forces.Quote:
I also think that there must be some other technology wich can stop the subject without handicaping or killing him.
This is a victory for terrorism, it shows how - sadly - frightened, hysteric and over the top the US is at the moment. When you have an innocent man shot and people applauding you know people are seriously flawed in their thinking.
Firstly he was screaming he had a bomb - that not seem bloody weird? If he had a bomb he would have detonated not screamed that he had one. Look at the 9/11 bombers or the 7/11 bombers or the madrid bombers, any of them scream? In fact, go through the history of every single suicide bomber in history and you show me once where the bomber was screaming before he detonated that he had a bomb. It is madness.
Secondly I will never accept on any grounds that shooting to kill is any policy accept lunacy. There are others means and actions that could be undertaken, it is merely the think first find out later approach and always prone - and normally found out to be so - to huge risks in terms of innocents dieing and situations escilating. Especially on a plane - it is madness.
There are so many other reasons for it being madness to shoot him, not even mentioning the fact that his wife told them he was mentally ill. America is clearly an unsafe to be at the moment and I am quite glad I do not live over there, at least over here whe nwe have a shoot to kill incident and an innocent dies we demand justice for the innocent, over there it seems you applaud the great killing and hope for more blood, Disgusting.
And this weeks sanctimonious BS will be brought to you, as usual, by the Jagster.
Removed out of respect for those that have mentally ill family members. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemurmania
About 25% of all people suffer from mental illness, should we lock all of them up. I hope someone remembers your views when you get old and can't quiet remember things as good as you used to, like what year it is and what your son's name is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
My favourite place in Boston was a chinese tea house ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Somewhere on Shawmut Avenue, closest T station got to be New England Medical center. Yuuki might remember the place ~D
Otherwise, the classical Middle East (Cambridge) or the Milky Way (Jamaica Plain). Or ... Well it kinds on depnd what you like :)
Louis,
Lobstahs, A2. Lobstahs. And if they're worth a damn, remember to describe them as 'wicked awesome.'Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
The bookstores alone should probably keep you busy with whatever freetime you have in Boston. Hope you enjoy your trip.
I know, I'm retahded. ~;) I guess lobstis would be more Noo Joyzee?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Well, my host is the myopic glasses type so he is bound to know most of those stores. Maybe I can finally land some of those C.S. Lewis books there.Quote:
The bookstores alone should probably keep you busy with whatever freetime you have in Boston.
:book:
The Democratic party has weighed in on this issue...
http://weeklydiatribe.com/?p=138#more-138
~:joker:
Why, yes they did in fact, which you'd know if you had read this thread. The 9/11 bombers said they had a bomb to take over the plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
What would be mad would be doing nothing when a man on a plane says he has a bomb. What the heck are you supposed to do? Try and talk him out of it? What would you tell the families of the people who died while the Marshal was talking with him?
You are the one with the lunatic ideas. If you just wound a suicide bomber, you don't stop him from detonating his bomb, so he sets it off and kills people. Any force under instant incapacitation is useless. There are NO OTHER MEANS OR ACTIONS. Furthermore, Air Marshals use a unique .357 caliber Sig pistol designed to be very lethal but not overpenetrate.Quote:
Secondly I will never accept on any grounds that shooting to kill is any policy accept lunacy. There are others means and actions that could be undertaken, it is merely the think first find out later approach and always prone - and normally found out to be so - to huge risks in terms of innocents dieing and situations escilating. Especially on a plane - it is madness.
And situations 'escilating'?!?!? HOW ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH CAN A SITUATION ESCALATE BEYOND "I'VE GOT A BOMB"?!
Goodness, you are silly. It's like the importance of touchy-feely, warm and fuzzy liberalism has so infected you that you want Air Marshals to avoid escalating a situation where a man is about to kill dozens so, I suppose, they can discuss their differences through negotiation. It's a total failure to realize that the situation cannot be escalated further.
And JAG, which would you rather have, a tiny bullet hole in the side of a plane, which wouldn't cause depressurization, or a huge explosion on the plane?
Wow, how right you are! A terrorist team would never lie to Air Marshals so one could get in good position to blow himself up!Quote:
There are so many other reasons for it being madness to shoot him, not even mentioning the fact that his wife told them he was mentally ill. America is clearly an unsafe to be at the moment and I am quite glad I do not live over there, at least over here whe nwe have a shoot to kill incident and an innocent dies we demand justice for the innocent, over there it seems you applaud the great killing and hope for more blood, Disgusting.
Nor is anyone applauding the killing, which was a heck of a lot more justified than the English incident, but we realize that it was necessary.
The only blood I hope for is that of terrorists.
In summary, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that this man claimed to have a bomb, along with how much damage a bomb could do.
Spot on mate.Quote:
And this weeks sanctimonious BS will be brought to you, as usual, by the Jagster.
Crazed Rabbi
I have to admit that - being currently in the US - that incident made me somewhat jittery.
When I first heard about it, my reaction was along the lines of "great ... trigger-happy air marshals". After I heard more details I had to change that opinion. I would agree with most people here that the reaction of the air marshals was appropriate.
Tragic and sad, but I do not really see any alternatives to the decision these guys had to make within a second.
I guess I will refrain from making any dumb bomb jokes when I enter the plane back home tonight, though...
Actually the "bomb joke" will always get you in trouble, even before 911. More so now...:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Providing you don't look like a muslim you should be alright....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
My point exactly - he wasn't. They did escilatethe situation, they were in the wrong.Quote:
Goodness, you are silly. It's like the importance of touchy-feely, warm and fuzzy liberalism has so infected you that you want Air Marshals to avoid escalating a situation where a man is about to kill dozens
So, once a bomber has detonated his bomb would they be justified in shooting then? ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
No, maybe they should find a real bomber first, was kind of the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Must be nice knowing everything beforehand.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
Grow up.