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Bush and the Band are in bed with the oil industry (at least; I'm pretty sure links to the ever-infamous MIC aren't exactly absent either - wasn't some advisor type sacked a while ago for those ?) and we are to believe the country is "corruption free" ? Nevermind those cutesy little scandals some time ago... whatwasthenamenow... Enron ? I forget. :inquisitive:
Nope, I'm refering to us. We can do all those things. We could have nuclear weapons tomorrow if we wanted to. We know how to build them, we simply don't want to (Cheers to us!). We can grow vastly more food than we can eat. We also produce far, far more energy than we use. (You guys buy most of it.) And just to remind you, though the US deserves great admiration for its sacrifices in the world wars, at least have the historical honesty to admit that we were in the mud fighting years before you joined in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Both times. ~;)
My point was that Canada is smart enough and rich enough to provide healthcare for its citizens, as is the US, and that only a lack of will power and forward thinking prevents us from doing it.
Which "wretched humans" do you speak of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
By the by, did you read my post that showed our system is improving? Did you see it? I can link it if you can't find it.
As an example; average waiting time in Canada to fix a broken hip according to the Canadian Institute for Heath Information...
One day.
I'm referring to the writings of Adam Smith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Illegal immigrants do not pay income taxes. They receive more benefits than they pay into. Haven't you heard my story about the illegal immigrant who makes $5000 a month tax free and gets an additional $500 per kid in welfare because they are citizens and she claims to be in poverty?Quote:
Isn't that what taxes are for ? Not my (or the scenario's) problem if people don't pay those, mind you; if that's the case crappy healthcare is seriously the least of your worries. Just ask the Russians.
Australia and Canada combined also have far less people given the area of arable land when compared with the U.S. So this makes your per capita figure irrelevant. What happnes when we double our population and export a reduced amount given our increased need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Sure. And consider the way they waged war. Far moe brutal. If they didn't like a population, they just brutalized it. Terrible comparison given the fishbowl nature of modern warfare.Quote:
Most powerful military force in the history of humanity... are we measuring by weapon stockpile or ability to get the mission done. I'm sure there are other nations in the history of the world that have managed to capture and control nations that are only one tenth there size... there was a nation, Britain? that managed to control multiple countries that were magnitudes larger then itself.
Agreed. It was not single handed. Many brave men throughout the world died for these causes.Quote:
Responsible for victories in WWI and WWII. WWI, hastened the victory... WWII... I believe there were a few other members in the team... after all it was called the Allies not the Singles.
Yep. Capitalism destroyed communism by breaking their system.Quote:
Economic victory that smashed the USSR. Well maybe this is a case for weapon stockpiles being how to complete a mission.
I have no problem with immigrants. I only have a problem with illegal immigrants. Big difference. This country was founded by immigrants and thrives on the ambition of newly minted Americans. There exists a process for citizenship and illegal immigrants operate outside of this system, robbing others of opportunity and facilitated by both parties.Quote:
First to "smash the atom" of course all the scientists on the Manhatten project bar Feynman were shock horror immigrants. :dizzy2:
A democracy of aristocracy with blood line positions. Real democracy. I'm a better bloke because my daddy had more money. Right.Quote:
Rapid expansion of democratic ideals... I think the (British) Commonwealth has more democracies then the US has ever created. By george I think I hit that bowl for six. So technically the way that the Queen desolved the Empire into a Commonwealth has done more for democracy... :laugh4:
True, the USSR bested us in the beginning, but ultimately, the United states dominated Space flight and does so to this very day. First man on the moon? That is a lot bigger than just earth orbit! Further, first successful private manned suborbital flight outside of earth's atmosphere? Erm, Spaceship One. And now, American private space travel will rekindle the sapce program.Quote:
The leader in space flight... Lets see:
First artificial satellite in space... USSR
First animal in space... USSR
First man in space... USSR
First women in space ... USSR
First man on the moon... USA.
Most tonnage to space... USSR.
Most astronauts/cosmonauts to die on a mission... USA.
Yeap clear leaders in umm, deaths per ton to space. :dizzy2:
[qoute]Corruption free... of course.[/QUOTE]
I never said corruption free. Thanks for the spin. :)
Actually the USA has far more arable land, the great lakes is one of the largest sources of fresh water in the world. Australia on the other hand has very little arable land due to lack of water, while Canada has plenty of water but most of it frozen... they are going to be a breadbasket due to global warming. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
And cheap vegetables/builders/cleaners/housemaids are all legal immigrants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
So you do agree with the Canadian positon on healthcare then! That a democracy will make sure all its citizens have access to health care regardless of wealth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
The Australian postion being: That democracy will make sure all its citizens have access to health care regardless of wealth... and if you are rich you can pay for private health, leaving more in the public sector for those who can't afford it.
Totally agree. Having NASA have a monopoly on space travel is like having any form of transport monpolised by government. NASA should set the polices, set rewards for accomplishments, and investigate crashes. They also should do their own flights, but they should not stop private industry from being there... they should foster them instead (at a $ rate of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Don't care, as that's the sort of stuff racists spout to justify their noxious little hates. "They come and take our jobs/women/tax money/bus seats!!!!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
:rtwno:
Lions.
But for that matter, what's a bigger money-loser for the society - the odd "social bums" leeching off the system, or the unscrupulous rich buggers who dodge taxes ? Betcha it's the latter. At least it's around here, and we have one of the most adamantly honest, law-abiding, corruption-free societies in the world.
All the more so as the "social bums" in fact do pay tax - or aren't the goods and services they use their ill-gotten funds on taxed around your place ? That'd be quite odd, I must say.
I don't think this should become a US bashing thread. I, for one, am a great fan of the USA. :unitedstates: :2thumbsup:
But it is exactly because the US is so rich, so smart, and so capable that its stand on for-profit medicine is seen in such contrast to it's fundamental and constitutional beliefs of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Note that the first word is life.)
If the US fought sickness with the same energy as it fights wars, I do not doubt for a moment that society would be changed on a global scale.
For now, however, I'm more than happy to keep up the fight here in the North and spread the gospel of socialized medicine. Amen.
i have never had a problem with adequate healthcare when in a country with socialized healthcare.
Oh, Div Arma, (he asks again) did you see my post that linked to a study showing that socialized medicine in Canada is getting better - not worse.
Did you see the part that showed the average wait time to fix a fractured hip was one day.
The report also says that cardiac surgery wait times are measured in days and weeks. Not months and years.
Cataract surgery wait times average one month.
Obviously we have much to fix, but where in the above do you see a failure of socialized medicine? I think we have an excellent base to build upon. To scrap this and turn the lot over to private insurance companies interested first and foremost in the profit margin would be tantamount to treason.
Might as well install debit machines in police cars and answer calls only on a per-pay basis.
:bobby2: "Yes mam, I understand there's man with a knife trying to rape you, but could you repeat the expiry date of your Visa please? I couldn't make it out with all the screaming on your end of the phone."
It's exactly the same thing.
okay, okay. Wow. Too much good stuff, can't respond all at once.
First of all, let me say that If I were not an American, I'd probably be an Australian, Canadian, Brit, Ire...uhm...lan...er? *cough*, or move to Japan. heh. I have great respect especially for Canada and Australia. These two great countries share many cultural values with the States. :2thumbsup:
It's my fault for steering this into a nationalist debate, and I'll stop it on my end. We should all be proud of our achievments as a community of western capitalist democracies.
That said, on topic:
I never said the US was "corruption free". But as a nation we suffer very little corruption in government. I would support full and total impeachment and imprisonment of the current administration if REAL proof came to light that indicated the President committed a crime. Look at "Duke" cunnigham. Almost 9 years. Good. I hope he dies in prison, the SOB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Watchman, As for Enron, arthur anderson, et al, these are private corporations. As you can see, the executives have been paying a hefty toll. Do not confuse unethical behavior by private business with ethics in public administration. Two different entities, my friend.
Illegal immigrants, mostly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Yes. And I hope it is a stellar success one day. I hope that Canada becomes the model for government efficieny in Health Care and shows that the system really can work. Until that day...Quote:
By the by, did you read my post that showed our system is improving? Did you see it? I can link it if you can't find it.
Did I say that? No. But you did. And you are mostly correct these days. You have absolutley no idea how bad this problem is. No clue. None.Quote:
Originally Posted by quote
But that is another topic entirely. Fair enough?
This is where illegal immigration does come into play here. I don't want to argue immigration policy, but let's look at the realtionship between illegal immigration and nationalizeed health care.Quote:
So you do agree with the Canadian positon on healthcare then! That a democracy will make sure all its citizens have access to health care regardless of wealth.
(1) Illegal immigrants will get care.
(2) Illegal immigrants do not now, nor will they later, pay for their care.
(3) The united states takes on 500,000 new illegal immigrants per year.
(4) See the problem?
I agree that the system is flawed and that some action must be taken to care for tax-paying citizens, even the poor who refuse to educate themselves and yet multiply exponentially by the litter. My suggestion is a government subsidized insurance program. It will pay for care to those who pay into the system beyond just free emergency room care, while encouraging good old competition throughout the private industry.
That stuff is just fun, isn't it?:2thumbsup:Quote:
Totally agree. Having NASA have a monopoly on space travel is like having any form of transport monpolised by government. NASA should set the polices, set rewards for accomplishments, and investigate crashes. They also should do their own flights, but they should not stop private industry from being there... they should foster them instead (at a $ rate of course).
That is so totally unfair that it is just wrong, Watchman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
(1) I don't care WHAT ethnicity races across our border. I care that they are undeucated, poverty stricken, and refuse to assimilate; all the while feeding off of American benefits poured on them by greedy business owners and disgusting politicians.
(2) You have NO idea what you speak of. Nothing. Sorry. Your input is meaningless because you do not live and breathe this infection. And that is eaxactly what it is. An infection. A disease. And it is destroying us from within.
I hate 'em both. But unfortunately we have a boatload more of the illegal immigrant free loaders than the rich tax dodgers. Oh, don't get me wrong, we have them too. But not upwards of 12 million people.Quote:
But for that matter, what's a bigger money-loser for the society - the odd "social bums" leeching off the system, or the unscrupulous rich buggers who dodge taxes ? Betcha it's the latter. At least it's around here, and we have one of the most adamantly honest, law-abiding, corruption-free societies in the world.
Sure. Sales tax. I won't argue with you there. But that fact is that they get more than there money back in benefits than anywhere near what they pay in. I'm sure you heard my true horror story about the illegal immigrant barber RIGHT? The united states derives its primary source of government funding via income taxes. Something that illegal immigrants do not pay, meanwhile raping us of welfare money for their anchor babies.Quote:
All the more so as the "social bums" in fact do pay tax - or aren't the goods and services they use their ill-gotten funds on taxed around your place ? That'd be quite odd, I must say.
Deport the parents. They have no right to be here. As for the kids, they have dual citizenship. So they can stay in foster care or go with mommy and daddy back to el mexico.
I wish Canada the best with that. Hope it works out for ya.Quote:
Oh, Div Arma, (he asks again) did you see my post that linked to a study showing that socialized medicine in Canada is getting better - not worse.
Eh. No comment. All those gangbangers should be forced to pay society back for the money spent in police and jail services. I have NO problem with indentured servitutude in order to repay society for your ills.Quote:
"Yes mam, I understand there's man with a knife trying to rape you, but could you repeat the expiry date of your Visa please? I couldn't make it out with all the screaming on your end of the phone."
It's exactly the same thing.
Yay! That was fun. :2thumbsup: :balloon2:
DA, in Canada, you will be refused treatment (in non-emergency cases) if you do not present your Health Card. Is there such an ID in the USA?
This is true, you have to pay if you do not have your card.
About ten years ago it was $17 to see the doctor and get a prescription. About five years ago it was $20. Now it's about $25 I think.
X-rays will cost about $25 to $35.
When I had pneumonia a few years back, and hadn't renewed my card, the whole kit and kaboodle, initial diagnosis, X-rays, medicine, follow up visit and final X-ray was about $200.
However, about six years ago when I was admitted to emergency with a whopper of an asthma attack and serious chest pains (and no Medicare card), I got the doctor, blood analysis, EKG, tread mill stress test, the whole nine yards for a handshake. I was in the doctor's office in sixty seconds I kid you not.
Outright refusals are rare. Usually there is something that can be worked out. Also, you are given a form that will allow you to recuperate 100% of the costs as soon as you do get your card as long as it's within a year of the hospital visit.
If somebody goes into an emergency room and says they have a runny nose, they will be treated. They will wait for 8 hours, but they will be treated.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoreBag
And a doctors visit, xrays, and prescrption can cost nearly a grand or more... easy. But then the illegal just throw the bill away.
I know. I was broke once. And I got treated at an emergency room as an adult when I barely made enough to eat. I have no idea what the bill even was. I just filled out a piece of paper that was mailed to me where I basically said I am a poverty-stricken dude and the whole thing ended up being free.
And that is the problem. Because that cost gets rolled over onto the decent folks who pay into the insurance system.
Like I said, I think a govt-subsidized insurance program would not be a horrible idea. It should be required to have at least that, but you should not have to pay into it if you have private insurance.
The biggest problem is these damn illegals. They ruin the chances of even that being successful because they will continue to send their 7 children to the emergency rooms for checkups.
Only a minor note.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Considering that Enron did cost US taxpayers a trillion (american trillion) dollars in the end, I'm not so sure if you can simply put it away as private business as every American felt it, badly.
Needs a "general corruption" category.
Right. Illegal immigrants will be the downfall of your civilization. Sure thing massa. Mesa believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
You know, around here certain types of people like to blame about everything on foreigners too, with lines of reasoning oddly similar to yours.
I detest them greatly.
Incidentally, some of what you've been saying meshes rather well with the suspicion I've had for a while about the US society being a borderline "social trap" scenario. That's a political science theory of a sort of vicious self-perpetuating cycle where systems based on cooperation fail out of the sheer inability of the participants to trust in each other to "play fair"; for example, in a badly corrupt state the populace won't want to pay taxes because they know most everyone else won't even if they as individuals do, the corrupt officials will pocket most of it anyway, and whatever reaches the state coffers isn't going to be of much benefit for the taxpayers; and the officials are corrupt almost by necessity because there's little point in being the only honest guy in a rotten rigged game - "who wants to be the sucker ?"
Sound familiar ?
As an example of how that works in practice, the Swedish state receives some 97% of the tax revenues it's due. The Russian state receives and estimate of 40%. Guess which one has about squeaky clean corruption record and virtually unbribable officials ?
Well I've just been to the dentist to have a tooth that was split in half repaired.
So lets play: How much did it cost?
Six hundred dollaree-doos?
You missed my point, mang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Anymore guesses?
Probably $600 Auzzie bucks. But since you more than likely have some kind of health plan not that much. Depending on what kind of plan you have.
Lets see - last dental emergancy anyone in my family had was a chipped tooth and that only cost us $185 dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
So a split tooth would be significantly more in the United States.
So in your neck of the world - I would think it cost a very minimum amount, depending if you went to private care off of insurance.
$180 Australian. for repairing a tooth that was split in half and was borderline being a root canal job... just by the skin of my teeth not being so. :laugh4:
And $81 back from private health care... it would have been more if the dentist was a preferred choice of the fund.
so $99 for repairing the tooth. ~:)
Or $72 US / $84 Canadian or 42 Pounds.
Mine was free. ~:)
Damn those socialists!
You're a student. Wait until you stop being one, then the pain of the dentist is hardly over when he stops in your mouth. That's if you can get an NHS dentist of course...
Personally I'd not trust them as far as I can throw them. One "senior" one in hospital wrote a patient up for 8g paracetamol per day... twice the reccommended limit. Pah, failed doctors the lot of them... ~;)
~:smoking:
Students always get discounts... do you get paid to go to Uni... a lot of Aussies do...Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
You have no right to take that tone. Calling someone a slave-holder, or suggesting that they behave as if a slave-holder cannot be passed off as "joking".Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
It was the downfall of the Roman empire wasnt it?~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
...no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Sorry, had to dredge this up.
Just read today that prior to Canada moving to socialized healthcare in 1968, nearly 1/3 of the population was uninsured and the #1 cause of bankruptcy was health costs due to catastrophic illness.
The article also said that healthcare costs due to catastrophic illness are the #2 cause of bankruptcy in the US today.
One quick article I found.
http://www.bankruptcycanada.com/blog/canadian-and-us-bankruptcy-rates
Anyone have any figures of how much those bankruptcies cost the US?