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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards
Did you ever stop for a second and think, maybe you were wrong (sic).
This seems to be the center of the arguement against me.
Do I think I am wrong? No I don't because I base my opinion on trust sources and logic.
I haven't seen anyone bring up trusted sources that say they wore cloaks.
I haven't seen anyone refute my reasons why wearing a cloak in combat would be a burden.
Where are the sources?
If you guys have them, that is great, in that case I will be wrong, and I'll be the first one to say it. But why are you wasting your time attacking me, (or blindly supporting the EB team when you have no clue if they have the sources or not), why not just show me the evidence?
And if there are no sources, why not explain to me why cloaks are such a benefit, and why they would have become shorter.
I don't really ask for much, I just want evidence.
Almost every arguement you guys have used with me on this subject and others is ad-hoc, you don't give me the reason why you decided (the sources, the logic), you simply defend what you've decided by telling me ad-hoc arguements, for instance, other modders have done the same with the cloak on the Spartan. Well that is a logical fallacy, just because a lot of people believe in God, doesn't mean he exist. I'm so sick of crap arguements like that from the EB team. Tell me why you choose to put the cloak on the first place, why did you do it? And if it was just for show, then that's fine too, but don't claim the Spartan is realistic.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
"Crap arguments"? You might not like what other EB fans have said to you, but EB members could give a flip about you or your complaints when you label us and our posts this way.
I would be surprised if anyone other EB member feels like wasting their time talking to someone who continually disrespects us in this manner. It's hard to keep coming back to contribute to a discussion (and it's hard to keep people coming back period) if it is framed so boorishly.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
fallen851, you are making a big deal out of nothing. This was a perfectly friendly and instructing discussion until you got upset because TA did not accept your fifth-century evidence as conclusive for the dressing habits of third-century Spartan hoplites. Please drop the accusations. All they do is turn friendly discussions into angry ones.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
fallen851 you haven't given us any evidence that they DIDN'T wear cloaks into combat during EB's timeframe. Wearing a small, thin cloak would not have been a burden. They said they are NOT weaing the large cloaks that can doble as blankets that your talking about. I'm not blindly supporting them. I'm supporting them since your side of the discussion makes less sense. Information about them over 200 years before hand is not important. That's like describing the outfit a 1800 era soldier and a 2000 era soldier. If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
While I'd like to see more information on why the Spartan unit is going to be designed the way it is, including sources, I also cannot see the relevance of applying sources pre-dating the EB timeframe by almost two hundred years.
It is fine and well explaining why the unit isn't going to be designed in a certain way, but it'd be more informative seeing sources showing why it is the way it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards
If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.
Um, what? :dizzy2:
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards
If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.
What.
The.
Hell.
?
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by fallen851
Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?
Warry uses Thucycdides, Xenophon, and Plutarch as his main sources for that chapter.
I looked into Lykourgos, who Plutarch wrote a biography of, so I'm sure Warry is very familiar with him.
But enough with sources, would you wear your blanket in battle? Too often I think people read into sources as if they are end-all be-all arguements. We need to think "Does this make sense?"
But really, it seems you keep assuming that said cloak as it will be depicted in EB will be the huge, full cloak that the spartans slept in according to fifth century sources; the kind of cloaks as they were depicted in the original CA spartan hoplite.
But VandalCarthage has specifically stated that this is not the size of cloak that will be used in EB. Along with the fact that Spartans were not as spartan as may be assumed at the start of the EB game, it would be reasonable to assume they no longer slept in their cloaks but had other equipment for that (what a luxury!), that a cloak will be depicted more like on this unit than like the original unit in RTW. Certainly not a full-length body cloak.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Ok, so it has a small cloak, which isn't traditional for a Spartan unit if I understand what you said correct, and you said it quite clearly, but I think you stated it incorrectly? And the cloak was used as blanket, is it big enough to be that?
No, it's not, and I said nothing incorrectly - you've just been defining the word cloak for yourself in a very narrow fashion, this whole argument:
Cloak:
1. A loose outer garment, such as a cape.
2. Something that covers or conceals: a cloak of secrecy.
Quote:
But VandalCarthage has specifically stated that this is not the size of cloak that will be used in EB. Along with the fact that Spartans were not as spartan as may be assumed at the start of the EB game, it would be reasonable to assume they no longer slept in their cloaks but had other equipment for that (what a luxury!), that a cloak will be depicted more like on this unit than like the original unit in RTW. Certainly not a full-length body cloak.
Thanks for listening ~;)
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If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.
That doesn't even really bear discussion...
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
Fondor, your arguments in your last post were quite good, till this.
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Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards
If you want pure realism, go play RTR. EB never said it was about 100% historical accuarcy.
ROFLMAO :laugh4:
PS: BTW, yes it did say that.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
we all ready have a Spartan unit. me of course!
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
*mutters before going back into the shadows* :sweatdrop: :hide:
Well...it at least it drew attention to the post....
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
"Crap arguments"?
Well you try to convince me I should back off my arguement because the game is "free".
I can imagine it now:
EB Member: So what should the Spartan model/skin look like?
TA: Well it the game is free, so if they don't like it they don't have to play it.
EB Member: Oh so that makes it realistic?
You can fill in the blank. That is a crap arguement. That isn't how the conversation went, so I want to know how the conversation went. What historical evidence did you guys use to create the look of this Spartan?
Same with your arguement "well other Spartans look a certain way..." as I pointed out before.
Ludens it should be very clear to you, that I began arguing with evidence, will TA is making excuses of why I should not argue "well the game is free, well you know there are many opinions, well you know other Spartans look this way". That is disrespectful, because he isn't respecting what I say, but then you expect me to respect him? And the same thing has happened in the past when I've brought up things, members of the EB team have tried to blow me off with similar arguements. I don't mind being wrong, I don't need TA to accept my evidence, I just want to know his evidence!
All I wanted was an arguement like "here is the evidence we used" to back up statements like this:
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey Sit
would be reasonable to assume
So can some brave soul, tell me why it would be reasonable to assume the Spartans wore a short cloak in combat?
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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I don't mind being wrong, I don't need TA to accept my evidence, I just want to know his evidence!
You haven't shown any evidence. That's the problem.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by fallen851
Ludens it should be very clear to you, that I began arguing with evidence, will TA is making excuses of why I should not argue "well the game is free, well you know there are many opinions, well you know other Spartans look this way". That is disrespectful, because he isn't respecting what I say, but then you expect me to respect him? And the same thing has happened in the past when I've brought up things, members of the EB team have tried to blow me off with similar arguements. I don't mind being wrong, I don't need TA to accept my evidence, I just want to know his evidence!
Respect is a two-way thing. This was a friendly and respectful discussion until you made your accusations, all because of a comment that probably wasn't even directed at you. I think this thread should be closed. It's not going to resolve anything.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by fallen851
All I wanted was an arguement like "here is the evidence we used" to back up statements like this:
-quote-
So can some brave soul, tell me why it would be reasonable to assume the Spartans wore a short cloak in combat?
I'd appreciate it if you did exactly the same, without resorting to irrelevant fifth century sources such as Xenophon.
To answer your question, a short cloak would not get in the way, certainly not as much as the full cloak originally in the game; certainly in an ordered shieldwall/phalanx this would be of little consequence, where most movement would be directed forward. Spartans didn't wear cloaks into battle in the fifth century? That's fine, and you're correct in stating that the sources say that specifically, but it is no longer relevant twohundred years later. Also, authors constantly emphasise the disciplined nature of the Spartans, particularly someone like Xenophon, and it is in their interests to emphasis their toughness with such examples as sleeping in their cloaks and not wearing them to battle. It makes them a more dramatic opponent in written works, much as classical sources frequently depict celts as barbarous, bloodthirsty warriors. It adheres to the stereotype readers wanted.
But two hundred years later, the hoplites cannot be compared to their predecessors. Sparta had changed, wealth was no longer as strongly opposed, and a cloak would likely be seen as a permitted luxury. They were no longer fighting directly for their city, but as mercenaries, and would come into contact with luxury unknown in their city. I agree, a full cloak would interfere with combat and should not be implemented, but a short cloak would not. Later sources do not state they wore cloaks, but they also don't state that they didn't; as has been made clear by EB members, a realistic depiction could go either way (traditionally spartan, or more decorated), and this is the decision they've made.
Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what all this fuss is about. I'd love to see sources on third century Spartans, but although I've seen little from EB members on that matter, their conjecture is more plausible than yours, and quite frankly provided in a far politer manner. But judging from your reaction to stats and the Yuezhi, that is your style.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
Well, I'll just throw in that I've been looking at grave stelae and marble reliefs of soldiers and battle scenes at museums and sites in turkey and bulgaria for the past couple of weeks, and while I haven't seen anyone I could identify as a 3rd century bc Spartan, I do have a few observations:
1) The short cloak (or long cloak) is VERY common on soldiers, especially on Gauls/Thracians and on Hellenistic elites, especially cavalry, but also some infantry. If its a common artistic feature of elites, it may well have been a common real-life feature, too.
2) How do you figure a cloak is any more dangerous than the tunics many soldiers wore? And as far as heat, which do you think is hotter: chain and plate armor exposed directly to the sun, or said armor under cover.
Hope that helps. And for my own interest, would you say the Spartans are more or less ornamented than the general? How do they compare?
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
I think the hitch of this whole discussion is that Dave and I are the only ones who have actually seen the damn thing. This has really been a shoot first ask questions later situation, and fallen, as far as I can tell - everyone of your legitimate concerns has been addressed promptly and politely, so I'd suggest kindly dropping this until you've seen the unit.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
We *all* do agree that there is no way we can know for sure what third century spartans looked like. That is good. Our version of the unit will not be liked by some folks, for sure. Like we were mentioning, there is a range of possibilities. Ours is on the higher end of the range for a few different reasons. CB's recent spartans are on the other end. I can't say that all of our details are right, since most of our information does come from earlier periods (for the sparties). But some things we do know about them that greatly affected our view of the unit was that they fought with the king of sparta, and the served as mercenaries from Sicily and Italy and Greece to Crete and probably in much more distant places on occasion too. They used their money to support their families back home, as the helot business had closed up shop by this point in time. Plus this is the third century, not the fifth, so some changes in armor and helmets and such would be obvious. Sparta at this time had just begun to permit the minting of coins and had a reputation acquired with our starting king of allowing more luxuries than at any previous period. Plus, we felt like maybe taking things a little further (not much more for this point though) to get the point across that these are *not* Thermopylai Spartans, and that they have changed quite a bit in many respects. It's a fairly elite unit too, and although that didn't affect the way the unit was directly created, I'm personally glad I have a unit I can look forward to recruiting instead of feeling like it's a step down from my other units. Well, that's just a few general words to further prepare folks for the spartans when they are released.
I was hoping that this was some good information that might lead to interesting discussion actually. :embarassed:
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
While I do agree that tight realism is a must(that's the mod's focus, right?), if no sources of that time exist, it would be better for the team to feel free to extend some artistic freedom than to squabble over something so minor as cloaks.
If you feel that cloaks woud add a lot to the unit, or even little, add them by all means. If you can't make it look historical, make it look good. I have every trust on you that you are prudent enough to make it even roughly accurate and use that freedom on moderation, i.e no horns on german helmets.
my2zots
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
I love this thread, I promise myself I won't respond, but then I just... have to.
I did show evidence. 5th century evidence, indeed, but let us make this very simple.
I have no evidence, I'm only trying to disprove, now do you (since your the one trying to prove) have any evidence?
See you can say the alignment of certain moons in the galaxy are giving you a headache, and when I ask "show me evidence", you can respond "show me evidence that they aren't!" Sadly I cannot prove that the moons are not giving you a headache, but that alone is not proof that they are.
That is essentially what is going on here, there is no evidence so you guys are guessing.
I don't think Spartans wore cloaks and here is my reasoning:
It is certainly one thing for Mithridates soldiers to go into battle in cremonial dress, only to break and run for the hills when the Romans threw their pilums. In fact, a lot of people back then wore stupid things in combat that hampered their ability to fight. But that doesn't mean that everyone did.
Which reminds me again of the Gracie vs Leopold fight I spoke of earlier. For many years in mixed martial arts, people spoke of what "could" but no one really figured anything out, until leagues like the UFC, and Pride actually had people compete. This draws a strong parrell, Mithridates had no clue what he doing, and he faced an army that was experience and "enlightened". Plenty of barbarian armies had this problem.
It doesn't make sense that the Greeks, particularly the Spartans (who had shunned luxuries for centuries), would do such a thing. They knew what had happened in the past. Sure they could mint coins and have luxuries, hell they can wear whatever. Except when they are in battle, I think they would do the same thing they had done previously. Whose call would it have been to say "lets throw on a small red cloak!"? In fact, is was your call, because the more I think about it, the more incredibly stupid that idea would have been to them back then.
It is one thing to mint coins. It is quite another to immitate Mithridates.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
I understand your position. Seriously, I do. I don't understand how you care this much about the blasted cloak/mini-cloak/whatever-it-is given the lack of information about their dress/armor/equipment in the third century of the unit as merc soldiers. There were pages and pages of arguments about the unit in development, and not one post worried with the cloak.
How stupid is it for the unit to have a cloak, you ask? How stupid is it for all units in RTW to have no extra clothes in the winter for battles? How stupid is the thick stuff in the deserts? It's something we really don't think about much cause we can't have an affect on these changes or the temperature/depiction/etc. No units' clothing has anything to do with these variations - we just focus on armor/weapons mostly. Aren't there cloaks on other units at the same latitude? Why the three play tragedy over the cloak on this particular unit? The argument that Hellenes especially before the Peloponnesian war fought in the summer only is understandable - but in RTW they fight at all times, right? Then sometimes, we have too little clothing on them! Gasp! Sometimes too much!
Write this off again as "you have no evidence they did" all you want. You are one person having a fit about a cloak on one unit we don't have hardly any specifics about at all and which is in a mod that people volunteer to create for themselves mostly but also for education and enjoyment of many more folks. A *fit*. I feel very very strongly about helping make sure people understand where in general we are coming from and why we have chosen to do things the way we have. There aren't many other members that care enough to post a lot on the open fora much anymore really. Some really take criticism too hard I think, but the types that mod are quite varied, and to each their own. But that is why I am here still, trying to make people understand and see things from the pov that we have taken. Sometimes no amount of talking matters though.
So please try to enjoy the other aspects of the mod you don't feel we totally screwed up so horribly. That's about the only advice I can give I'm afraid at this point.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by fallen851
I did show evidence. 5th century evidence, indeed, but let us make this very simple.
I have no evidence, I'm only trying to disprove, now do you (since your the one trying to prove) have any evidence?
(...)
That is essentially what is going on here, there is no evidence so you guys are guessing.
True. You've got a point here. However, you are extrapolating on available evidence, and that is only possible if the same conditions apply. Your sources are not even talking about the same kind of cloak, so are they really relevant?
Similarly, you cannot compare modern-day martial arts with third-century phalanx warfare. When in close-combat you cannot get behind the Spartan opposing you to start tugging at his cloak, because he is backed up by others Spartans next to him and behind him. The only way to grab his cloak would be to reach past him, thereby exposing yourself. If the Spartan formation broke up, then it would be a vulnerability, but if that happened the battle was lost already.
Does any of this prove that third-century Spartans wore cloaks? No, off course not. However, not everything in Europa Barbarorum has a basis in fact, simply because there are too many gaps in the record. IIRC several units of elite Hellenic soldiers wore cloaks, so perhaps the Spartans did as well. Also, according to TA's earlier post the team wanted to make a statement about the Spartan. These are the reasons for including the cloak. Does that answer your question?
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
So TA, will there be a rare, pricy Spartan merc unit too?
and ps- if any of yall pray, send one up for me, i got some sort of nasty insect bite and the rural medical peeps arent much for quality help. thanks.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
We've thought about it. Right now the unit is just for KH recruitment. But there has been discussion about it. We will have to wait and see.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
We've thought about it. Right now the unit is just for KH recruitment. But there has been discussion about it. We will have to wait and see.
Those would probably look completely different, wouldn't they? Granted, it brings up several problems mentioned in this thread, but I imagine a recruited Spartan unit would appear rather spartan; however, a mercenary version, a group that would probably earn a lot of money and have no place to store material effects, would have more lavish equipment.
By the way, when did the Corinthian helmet fall out of use? It seems that every Greek unit has an Attic-type helmet. I imagine vision and hearing were the big motivators for that.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
Well, seeing how these units that are recruited by KH *are* (at least previously) mercs (think of them as mercs prior to your recruiting them, then they stay under your command), they will seem somewhat lavish compared to some other regular hoplites. But yes, an even more decorated type unit to serve as mercs was considered and still might be (maybe a chance a least, but for now not being included).
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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That is essentially what is going on here, there is no evidence so you guys are guessing.
Is that not indeed what you're doing? There are copious amounts of social and martial trends and precedants that could lead one towards a number of conclusions; you take the outdated specifics of their appearance in battle, while we designed ours along the lines of an evolving population, as well as numerous actual archeaological examples of Spartan equipment. To quote another historian, "the Spartans did use archers," and were likewise not too steeped in their own traditions to shun everything the same traditions didn't necessarilly applaud.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
Hey TA and other EB modders don't let sad, angry little people like Fallen get to you. If he's got a stick up his A#* about a little cloak then that's his problem. I think your team makes great choices and personally I can't wait to see the new unit.
Keep rockin' it hardcore:2thumbsup:
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
Don't feel all ganged up, Fallendude. No one hates you.
It's just that this stuff happens when you get all passionate on Teh Internets.
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Re: Any new spartan unit in the making?
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Originally Posted by VandalCarthage
Is that not indeed what you're doing? There are copious amounts of social and martial trends and precedants that could lead one towards a number of conclusions; you take the outdated specifics of their appearance in battle, while we designed ours along the lines of an evolving population, as well as numerous actual archeaological examples of Spartan equipment. To quote another historian, "the Spartans did use archers," and were likewise not too steeped in their own traditions to shun everything the same traditions didn't necessarilly applaud.
Didn't they just start to use archers more because of the embarassing defeat at Sphacteria? Anyway, I don't think the Spartans of that age were too steeped in their tradition. That was the classical age, when they were still in their utopia. I'd think that the freeing of helots changed the Spartans a lot, and they'd need to adapt to survive, so changing by then isn't surprising.