Red Flood

I tried to introduce you to the year 1940, obviously I failed.
We all know that Germany lost the war and we all know that Italy was weak, and that the US joined the war. Forget all that.
In 1940 it looks like nothing could stop the Germans. They defeated the French, which were stronger than the Brits and saw no reason why the Brits should want to go on fighting.

To the strength of the armies:

In 1939 the ranking was (accepted by all nations):

1) France (strong army and strong air force)
2) Italy (strong army, air force and navy, they were the first to moderize their army, they had some military success in Spain and Africa)
3) Germany (esp. the Luftwaffe was overrated)
4) GB (strongest navy, small but effective air force, weak army)
5) USA (strong navy, small army/air force but big potential)
6) USSR (weak army, bad leadership, political situation uncertain)

The fall of France changed that ranking to:

1) Germany (with the tanks and airforce extremly overrated)
2) Italy
3) GB
4) USA
5) USSR

So nothing to worry about. If there was not the Channel and the RN the war would be over withing 4 weeks.

King Kurt is right. You will not be able to replay history with some small modifications. The Axis was not close to victory. You will have to be much smarter. In fact I can only see a very small window for victory.

Try to rely more on facts than on your memory or prejudices. Once more the King is right. Why did Franco not join the Axis? Or another question: what exactly is the position of Stalin? Or the Balkans?

Franc i have to completely disagree with your estimation how the SU was wiewed in 1940. In terms of men and material it had vastly the biggest army at that time and the Germans knew it also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Franc i have to completely disagree with your estimation how the SU was wiewed in 1940. In terms of men and material it had vastly the biggest army at that time and the Germans knew it also.

---

I disagree!
One example. We all know that France and GB did not dare to attack Germany, although the western flank was open.
However, the Allies planned an invasion of the Caucasus oil fields, to cut off the oil supply for Germany. Their assumption was that this would be enough to make the USSR break down within a couple of weeks. :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiki

After the civil war, General Francisco Franco ruled a nation exhausted politically and economically. Guerilla warfare in the countryside continued until 1950. During the Second World War, Franco, under extreme pressure (Hitler had brought his army to the border of Spain after invading France), opted to remain neutral arguing that Spain could not afford a new war, but, as a concession to his civil war backer, authorised volunteers to go to the Russian front to fight the Soviet Union in an anti-Communist crusade in what came to be known as the Blue Division.

---

Thus, Spain is an unlikely ally ... and the Germans would know it, but, if they can be convinced to open their territory to our troops marching on Gibraltar, it would be the best we could get (short of conquering the place).

Otherwise, while the USSR had a large army, it was mainly considered third-rate by all the parties involved. They were technologically backward, lacked good officers, and political officers had mostly had all command authority (officers chosen for their political loyalty, not skill).

Yes, about the only thing the Brits had was the Navy ... and most of the posts here assume that the Navy is the only problem.

Stalin's position:
He knew that a war with Germany would be costly, and iffy (which it was). So, he took to the non-agression treaty with enthousiasm. He got around to fortyfying the border in Poland, but it would have been years before the fortifications became operational. He wanted and desperately believed in peace with Germany. He suffered a mental breakdown in the first days of Operation Barbarossa. He ordered his troops not to fire until confirmation was made (he later admitted that the lack of discipline in the army prevented a complete disaster, as the soldiers did fire). Some of the more ... realistic thinkers in the Soviet Union expected war realistically, in 1945, or even later.

The Balkans:
A precarious position. They are close to Germany and Italy and far from the nearest Allies, meaning that they are, in essence, between a rock and a hard place, as the saying goes. Many of these are tradtionally friendly to Germany (Hungary and Yugoslavia especially). If given the choice, they would probably join the Axis (but, the example of Yugoslavia stands, where a coup'd'etat put Yugoslavia back out, making the Germans invade). All in all, Italy's ambitions could get in the way of maintaining order there (again, the site of one of the largest partisan movements, and all because Italy took the shoreline territories), but, at the moment, Italy is a prized ally, and their complete ineptitude is not openly known. That their equipment is outdated, however, is known.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Franconicus

I disagree!
One example. We all know that France and GB did not dare to attack Germany, although the western flank was open.
However, the Allies planned an invasion of the Caucasus oil fields, to cut off the oil supply for Germany. Their assumption was that this would be enough to make the USSR break down within a couple of weeks. :laugh4:

---

I will provide you proof.Once i have little time on my hands.Good debate is always refreshing.:2thumbsup:

Stalin is a incredibly unstable. He is emotional (not neccesarily a bad thing, but everything else is), not a fast thinker, unreliable, mentally unhinged, dissilusioned, and he beleives he does what is right for his people.
The Balkans could easily be influenced by the Axis to take up arms against the USSR. I think they hate the USSR more than they dislike the Axis, except of course the Jews living in the Balkans, but they are screwed either way.

Chapter 4 – The ‘Abwehr’
Berlin, June 17th, 1940

Ramcke orders the driver to go the OKW (High Command of the Army). The building resembles a beehive. He enters the department of the Abwehr. A young secretary is working at the reception.

“Good afternoon! My name is Ramcke. I am looking for someone who can give me …” The secretary waves aside: “General Oster is already waiting for you, Sir.”

She guides Ramcke to another office, where a general is waiting for him.

“My name is Oster. Admiral Canaris asked me to compile this information for you. Maybe you would like to run over the pages. Afterwards, I will be at your disposal. I do not have to tell you that this is strictly confidential material.”
Ramcke takes the report and sits down in a corner. Then he opens the document.

Military Situation at the Mediterranean after the fall of France

A) Allied Forces

Eastern Mediterranean

Alexandria (Brit.): 4 battleships (Warspite, Royal Sovereign, Malaya and Ramillies), 1 carrier (Eagle), 9 light cruisers (Manchester, Liverpool, Gloucester, Orion, Neptune, Sydney, Carlisle, Calypso, Caledon), 21 destroyers (plus 4 in the Red Sea), 6 submarines
Malta (brit.): 1 destroyer, 6 submarines
Alexandria (French): 1 battleship (Lorraine), 3 heavy cruisers (Suffren, Tourville, Duquesne), 1 light cruiser (Duguay Trouin), 1 destroyer, 6 submarines

Western Mediterranean

Gibraltar (Brit.): 1 battleship (Resolution), 1 carrier (Argus), 1 light cruiser (Arethusa), 9 destroyers

Toulon (French.): 2 modern battleships (Dunkerque, Strasbourg), 2 old battleships (Bretagne, Provence), 4 heavy cruisers (Algérie, Foch, Colbert, Dupleix), 6 light cruisers (La Galissonnière, Jean de Vienne, Marseillaise, Gloire, Montcalm, Georges Leygues), 37 destroyers, 6 torpedo boats, 36 submarines. The French transferred the battleships Dunkerque, Strasbourg as well as light forces from Brest to Mers-el-Kebir. The old battleships Lorraine, Provence, Bretagne and cruisers were sent to Alexandria.

The Allies have a job split in the Mediterranean. The French have the task to secure the Western Mediterranean; the British have the lead in the Eastern Mediterranean. The commander of the Eastern fleet is Adm. A.B. Cunningham.

The close fall of France will threaten the British position as they have to replace the French Navy in the Western Mediterranean. The Royal Navy will send a task force with the battle cruiser Hood, the carrier Ark Royal and the destroyers of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla (Escapade, Faulknor, Fearless, and Foxhound). They will sail from Scapa Flow to Gibraltar at June 17th. The forces will be enforced by the battleships Resolution, Valiant, the cruiser Enterprise and the destroyers Escort, Foresight and Forester as well as the cruiser Arethusa. Commander of this force is VAdm. Somerville. Additionally the 13th Destroyer-Flotilla (Active, Wrestler, Vidette, Douglas, Keppel, Vortigern, Wishart and Watchman) will be positioned at Gibraltar.

The British army in the Mediterranean is rather small, mainly focused on Egypt (commander: Wavell, Fought in the Boer War and in Palestine during the First World War. He was appointed commander-in-chief, Middle East in July 1939). There are only few tanks; there is a lack of antitank weapons and air defense. The French have armies at Tunisia and Syria.

The RAF has only weak forces at the Mediterranean theatre, maybe 200 planes. Many of these are outdated.

Italian Forces
6 battleships (Conte die Cavour, Giulio Cesare, Caio Duilio, Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Andrea Doria), 7 heavy cruisers (Pola, Zara, Fiume, Gorizia, Bolzano, Trento, Trieste), 12 light cruisers (Garibaldi, Duca degli Abruzzi, Eugenio di Savoia, Duca d’Aosta, Attendolo, Montecuccoli, Cadorna, Diaz, di Giussano, Da Barbiano, Colleoni, Bande Nere), 59 destroyers, 67 torpedo boats and 116 submarines.

The Italian battleships are either new or updated. The Italian submarine force is the strongest in the world.

The Italian army and air force outnumbers and outguns the British.

Strategic Situation

The Mediterranean Theatre has not the first priority for the British. The Italian Navy is stronger and has a better position, as the British forces are separated. Therefore the British will remain defensive. No bigger operations are expected. The British High Command rates Malta and Gibraltar as indefensible. In case of an invasion the British will try to evacuate these bases. Most of the units have already been transferred from Malta. Egypt and the Suez will be defended with all means. There are plans to occupy Crete in case of an Italian invasion on the Balkans. Crete and the Greek mainland would give the British the chance to air raid Romania.

After the surrender of the French troops the British expect an Italian invasion against Egypt. They try to increase the defense. A convoy (US.1) from New Zealand and Australia already reached Suez at 12th of February. On board there were 13,500 men. A second convoy (US.2) arrived at Suez in May; on board the 17th Inf. Brig.. The third one, US.3 carried the Australian 18th Inf. Brig. to Suez. It arrived at 16th of June.

Ramcke runs over the pages. Now he has at least an impression about the British formations. The information about the British army and air force strength is not very substantial. He hopes that the report is reliable, especially: “… rates Gibraltar and Malta as indefensible…” and “… there are only few tanks, there is a lack of antitank weapons and air defense”.

When he finally closes the document, Oster turns to him: “Admiral Canaris would like to meet you.”

Ramcke stands up and follows the General. Finally, they reach the office of the Admiral. Oster takes leave and Ramcke is alone with the leader of the German Abwehr.

Canaris: “Oberstleutnat Ramcke, I hope we could help you with some information. I regret that we do not have more. The number of our tasks is increasing faster than our head count.”

Ramcke: “Admiral, thank you very much for your support. To be honest, your help was larger and faster than expected.”

Canaris smiles: “The Abwehr does the best she can and I really wished I could give you more information. You make an investigation about operations in the Mediterranean Theatre?”

Ramcke: “Err, yes. I am just beginning.”

Canaris: “Maybe I can give you more help, soon. I am going to Spain to analyze the political and military situation there. Maybe we can meet afterwards and talk about the results.”
Ramcke: “This would be very useful. Thank you for your offer!”

Canaris: “Maybe I could ask you for a favor, too, Oberstleutnant? You will gather a lot of information about the military situation in the south. Of course this could be useful for the Abwehr, too. You could verify your data with the information we have before you give them to your superiors.”

Ramcke: “Certainly, Admiral! I will be glad to co-operate with your department.”

Canaris: “That sounds great! Now, I do not want to slow stem you. I wish you a good trip and hope to see you soon back in my office.”

After he had left the OKW Ramcke wonders were to turn to next.

Do the Italians have an equivalent of the Abwehr? If so, take a trip down there. Maybe they know things that we don't.

Next the foreign office.I would love to start taking the Gibraltar first.A)We dont need our (Italian)Navy on that.Just press the Franco to allow troop movement through Spain and we take it from air and land.B) That would effectively stop British fleet maneuvers from in and out the Mediterranian.:2thumbsup:

Here is the plan of Operation Felix that Germans had to take out Gibraltar.Ofcourse we are on earlier point and i think this could be exellent target to use FallchirmJäger in the Operation too.:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/felix.shtml

Overall Gibraltar is of bigger strategical value than Malta, but the seizure of Gibraltar is impossible without Spanish help. The conquest of Gibraltar actually makes the conquest of Malta redundant. But at the moment I think we're unable to actually invade Gibraltar and the chances of getting Spain to join now are rather meagre. (Especially with Canaris heading to Spain)

At the moment our first operation should be an airborne invasion of Malta with Italian naval support. The earlier we launch the assault the better, we can't allow the Brits to gather their strength in the mediterranean.

After that we can start thinking of continued operations and getting bases for an operation against Gibraltar.

Anyways now I think we should head to Italy and visit the Italian Supreme Command and see how we can influence the Italian planning. ~:)

Foreign Office is the way to go. From there we can look over the terrain and maps of what ever place we are going to attack- hopefully Gibraltar.

About Admiral Canaris.Now we know that he was one of the highest ranking members of resistance,but ofcourse Ramcke doesnt know that. This creates us a certain dilemma. Ofcourse we cant do anything about Canaris,becouse that would be worst kind of hindsight and would ruin the game.So any suggestions how to deal with the commander of military intelligence that is actually playing against current leaderships plans?So what to do with good ole Wilhelm?:laugh4:

Here is a short bio of Canaris:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

GAH!Double post.:embarassed:

Spain or Foreign office (foreign office would be rational as next stop because it involves diplomatic discussions and is situated very close to Ramcke's current position in Berlin if I'm not mistaken) next to try and convince Franco of allowing troop movements for seizing Gibraltar. Then perhaps the British strength in the Med will be limited enough to make the vastly numerally superior Italians able to do something else than just losing, because in war you can't cheat by diving so the enemy gets red cards :2thumbsup: In any case, it should by 1940 be clear that any extra push in defeating the British in the Med would be positive, even if we are under the, at that time seemingly reasonable, belief that Italy will be able to win. So Gibraltar it is, then.

Anyways a paradrop against Gibraltar with the current airborne tactics is currently an impossibility. Gibraltar has a size of 6.5 km² and afaik was protected by four battalions. The airstrip on Gibraltar is extremely small and I'm not sure if Ju-52's can even take off from it.

Our paratroopers would be slaughtered in the initial seconds of the paradrop due to the fact that they're mostly unarmed during the first minutes after the drop and we would be jumping straight down on british troops. Any assault on Gibraltar has to come through Spanish territory along a rather small corridor of land. You'd need some rather heavy artillery and big bombs to take that Rock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Anyways a paradrop against Gibraltar with the current airborne tactics is currently an impossibility. Gibraltar has a size of 6.5 km² and afaik was protected by four battalions. The airstrip on Gibraltar is extremely small and I'm not sure if Ju-52's can even take off from it.

Our paratroopers would be slaughtered in the initial seconds of the paradrop due to the fact that they're mostly unarmed during the first minutes after the drop and we would be jumping straight down on british troops. Any assault on Gibraltar has to come through Spanish territory along a rather small corridor of land. You'd need some rather heavy artillery and big bombs to take that Rock.

---

That was the idea, I suppose. A paradrop is IMO out of the question, but we could still use the FJs in the operation, although inserted the land way. Borrowing Spanish airfields north of Gib, and sending in a combined assault of tanks, artillery, bombers and fighters would probably work.

I do believe that the next move should really be Spain. Remember, we are confident that the Italians can not only hold their own, but also win. After all, they have superior forces. For the moment, the Balkans are being ignored by both sides.

It is also vital that we get Gibraltar, if we don't, our supremacy in the Mediterranean will be greatly disputed, and possibly even allow for an allied victory.

We need Franco and we need Spain, or we can freely forget about any sort of victory in North Africa or the Mediterranean, short of a miracle, nothing would be of help.

Once Gibraltar is out of the way ... Malta becomes a non-issue, it is unimportant, as supply ships have to run from the Suez across half the Mediterranean, and into Italian homewaters (which would also secure the Western part of the sea).

The Paras would be a very useful addition to the invasion ... their training is superior, and, in a support and infiltration role, they would offer a great edge to the assault. Any sort of drop is out of the question.

Offering Franco a choice between a rock and a sandwhich would be best. The rock would be a full-scale invasion ... the sandwhich, support in rooting out the partisans causing trouble, an offer of Gibralatar once the war is over, and not getting him involved in the war (after all, we threatened with invasion with superior forces, he has no choice but to cave, as the allies would think).

To be honest it's better if the Rock is left to the grunts of Heer. Using FJ's for Gibraltar would be a waste. It's just such a easily defendable position that you need a lot of firepower concentrated on a small area to break through. Even then the casualties would still be heavy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

To be honest it's better if the Rock is left to the grunts of Heer. Using FJ's for Gibraltar would be a waste. It's just such a easily defendable position that you need a lot of firepower concentrated on a small area to break through. Even then the casualties would still be heavy.

---

True, I think we have enough reseources, so we can launch simultaneous invasions of both Gibraltar and Malta.

Fallschirmjaegers and Italians at Malta, Heer and Spanish at Gibraltar. And the FSJ should be gearing up for Malta anyway, just in case Franco says no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

True, I think we have enough reseources, so we can launch simultaneous invasions of both Gibraltar and Malta.

Fallschirmjaegers and Italians at Malta, Heer and Spanish at Gibraltar. And the FSJ should be gearing up for Malta anyway, just in case Franco says no.

---

Franco will say no ... he is not in a position, nor is his country capable of, joining the war. Which is why there are two options, at the moment. One, a conquest of Spain, way too much trouble, but the option is always on the table. Two, convince Franco to allow access through his territory, while remaining neutral.

Malta is a must, it is a staging point between the Gibraltar and Suez.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keba

Franco will say no ... he is not in a position, nor is his country capable of, joining the war. Which is why there are two options, at the moment. One, a conquest of Spain, way too much trouble, but the option is always on the table. Two, convince Franco to allow access through his territory, while remaining neutral.

Malta is a must, it is a staging point between the Gibraltar and Suez.

---

He will probably not say no to troop passage, especially if there are no requirements whatsoever of him joining the war. The threats of invasion lest he does not cooperate is a good idea, but shouldn't be used immediately and explicitly in the negotiations, but he should know from the start of the negotiations that he both has a guilt to pay off, that the German forces are strong and capable of an invasion, and that the German forces expect and don't just ask for troop passage. The threat of invasion would IMO severe the relations and most likely also scare the Italians, making the German army look like backstabbers (as Franco is a semi-ally anyway). Keep it back if nothing else works.

Edit: edited horrible misspelling

Glad to see some caution about Gibraltar. I visited there many years ago - the place is a fortress - deep bunkers let into the rock, an approach over a narrow strip of land etc - any assault would be a massacre. Also, it would have to come across Spain, so there would be no element of surprise. I also see an invasion of Spain as out the question - just remember Napoleon. Spain in 1940 is full of men with military experience, so the guerilla resistance would go on for years. The only possible option would be the lease of bases, but Franco will need a lot of persuading.
As an aside, I recall an instance I heard about concerning WW1 - a British regt found out that they had the same battle honour - Gibraltar -on their flag as the german regt facing them in the line. Aparently the Germans had been one of the English Hessian regement used in taking Gib back in the 1700's.
I think our hero should possibly visit the Admiralty to get a naval intellegence view on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the forces in the Med. Then to the FO for a diplomatic view then to Italy to test the waters.:2thumbsup:

The discussion is in a good progress! Excellent!

Just some comments to get you back on the track:

1) You do not have to rate the political feasibility. Just look what are fine places to attack, make a plan and leave the rest to Hitler.

2) Although you are FJ now, you have the lead of this investigation for all branches. Therefore if you think the army should do it, allright!

3) Canaris? He is an admiral, while you are Oberstleutnant! :embarassed:

Here is the result of your voting so far:

Italy: 2 (Demon Archangel, Aggony Duck)
Foreign Office: 3 (Kagemusha, Irish Armenian, Legio)
Spain: 1 (Keba)
Admirality. 1 (KK)

P.S.: Do not forget the eastern med. Might find some nice targets there too. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Franconicus

1) You do not have to rate the political feasibility. Just look what are fine places to attack, make a plan and leave the rest to Hitler.

---

Well, all plans must come with recommended options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Franconicus

2) Although you are FJ now, you have the lead of this investigation for all branches. Therefore if you think the army should do it, allright!

---

The army, the army doesn't have anything to do at the moment. The Kriegsmarine is currently stuck until more subs are built, and the surface fleet is not even remotely a match for the British Home Fleet, not until we can get Tirpitz and the Bismarck on-line (the Graf Zeppelin would also be a useful addition). The Luftwaffe is currently superior to anything else, but is at a standby, waiting for orders which will be fashioned after our report.

About the only thing we can do with the army is loan a few divisions to Italy, and mass on the borders of Spain and Yugoslavia ... and carefully avoid keeping too many troops on the borders with the Soviet Union.

The Kriegsmarine can be employed in the historical manner, raiding ... we cannot match the British Navy openly, cutting them off from supplies is our only option.

The Luftwaffe, we can employ it in the Battle for Britain, hitting British airfields, but not engaging in terror-bombing. Secondly, Africa, they could prove invaluable if deployed in Africa and the Mediterranean, hitting the British fleet, and supporting the Italian forces there. Keep sufficen squadrons to protect our cities, but send the rest off to Africa.

The Eastern Med has excellent targets, but, for the moment, out of our reach. Cyprus is too far out, and any direct naval assault at the Middle East would be a big problem, as it would be met by the British Navy. However, Syria should soon be granted independence from French rule, they are (and were) friendly to Germany, we could use them, send them weapons and convince them to back-stab the British, and support the Iraqi in their coup'd'etat (also known as the Anglo-Iraq war, and the siege of Habannya airbase), a coup that might just land them in our alliance, if successful (Rashid Ali is pro-Nazi, and pro-German sentiments are very strong there). The Palestinians could prove to be valuable allies, they had recently been causing trouble for the Brits in opposition to the Jewish settling of the area.

Conclusion: If we can break through to the Suez, we have won the Middle East, as the locals are likely to turn against the Brits and join the Axis ... if we can break through.

EDIT: Clarification on the coup'd'etat in Iraq added.

Btw got to ask from those who know better, didn't most of the British convoys to North Africa go around Africa instead of going through Gibraltar and the Mediterranean?

If so then taking Gibraltar doesn't actually extend British supply routs, but Gibraltar does provide an excellent base for Italian cruisers and German submarines for intercepting British convoys. (and the Royal Navy loses it's only base in the vicinity, thus severely hampering their chances of doing something against Italian convoy raiders)


About Spain; to the British military access is the same as an alliance. I'm pretty sure Franco is aware of this and he knows he cannot afford a costly war. From what I gather Franco is actually willing to join the war, but the cost of getting him to join would be rather immense. Also may I ask, does Germany need another weak ally?

The more I think about Gibraltar and it's role, the more I start to think that it is not worth taking. Only Malta is supplied through Gibraltar and without Malta, Gibraltar suddenly loses a big deal of it's importance as a supply rout.
It is still a well positioned strategic base for naval squadrons, but nothing else really. Thus I think we should actually start concentrating our efforts to the Eastern Mediterranean, because it is there that the Mediterranean theater is won.

Egypt, the Suez and the oilfields of Iraq should be our primary objective, not Gibraltar.

IIRC there were transports from Gib to Malta (plenty of Hurricanes moved there by a carrier most of the way, then they flew the last bit), and IIRC operation crusader sent their tanks through the Med. Taking Gib indeed extends their supply routes, and forces them to either pull back forces from the Med or risk encirclement of both ships and land forces, or move everything to Alexandria, or try to retake Gib. But they haven't got the advantage of a friendly Franco that can allow them land access, so a direct naval invasion is their only option - an amphibious operation after a very long transportation distance, i.e. very risky and difficult to succeed in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Egypt, the Suez and the oilfields of Iraq should be our primary objective, not Gibraltar.

---

I agree if only because currently, Gibraltar is waaay too hard to take right now, and depends on way too many variables falling into place correctly, especially since one of the variables, Franco, is rather reluctant about actually getting into the war. Also, Gibraltar seems like Iwo Jima, what with the mountains, the caves and small area that would require a ridiculous number of casualties to take.

Malta would make a good springboard and forward air/naval base for an attack into the Eastern Mediterranean, and it can be taken RIGHT NOW. And as we all know, hitting hard, and hitting suddenly in warfare is a positive thing, especially if we give British intelligence (which appears to be rather good) as little forewarning as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

I agree if only because currently, Gibraltar is waaay too hard to take right now, and depends on way too many variables falling into place correctly, especially since one of the variables, Franco, is rather reluctant about actually getting into the war. Also, Gibraltar seems like Iwo Jima, what with the mountains, the caves and small area that would require a ridiculous number of casualties to take.

Malta would make a good springboard and forward air/naval base for an attack into the Eastern Mediterranean, and it can be taken RIGHT NOW. And as we all know, hitting hard, and hitting suddenly in warfare is a positive thing, especially if we give British intelligence (which appears to be rather good) as little forewarning as possible.

---

Nothing prevents us from doing both, the army can handle Gibraltar, while a paratrooper assault from Sicily handles Malta, which is, at the moment, poorly defended.

Convoys did go through Gibraltar commonly, usually straight to Malta, then from Malta to Egypt ... capturing Gibraltar would cut off those convoys and supplies would have to go around Africa, exposing them to a rather long shooting gallery that could very well be lined with subs. Secondly, one of the largest problems was that Germany could not send naval forces to aid Italy ... despite the fairly small and weak Kriegsmarine, the ships would be invaluable to the Italians in the long run. There were numerous attempts by Germany to sneak U-boats through Gibraltar, nearly all of them ended with a sunk U-boat.

Spain is not weak ... it has been weakened by the Civil War, and there is rebel activity there, but it would prove exceptionally useful if it joins, they have a large number of veteran soldiers and skilled officers which would be invaluable during the war, however, like I said, granting military access would be best for both sides. While the British might see it as them joining the Axis, keep in mind, Franco can easily claim threat of invasion by the Axis and get out of the way.

As far as Gibraltar is concerned it only has one weakness. It doesn't have proper fresh water reserves and relies heavily on rainwater for their supply of water. Without water a fortress doesn't survive a long time.

But the problem with Gibraltar is that it requires Spain to join the axis, which I personally think, would be a more of a burden than an asset to our side. Who do you think would have to supply and support the Spaniards? :no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keba

Nothing prevents us from doing both, the army can handle Gibraltar, while a paratrooper assault from Sicily handles Malta, which is, at the moment, poorly defended.

---

Yes, I strongly believe that both should be done, but Malta should be done as quickly as possible, because we have the resources to take Malta right now, so we should do it while the defenses on the island are still at a low level. However, it would take time to build up the artillery and the blockade needed to take Gibraltar, which would waste valuable resources and last too long.

Also, you have to remember. Hitler is a neurotic crazy man. We have to appease said neurotic crazy man by getting successful operations under our wing, and Malta seems to be the best place to do it right now. Dropping on Gibraltar would only result in needless casualties and greatly limit FSJ useage in the future.