Are You Rapture-Ready?

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

society started with atheism didnt it? then religion came, i wonder why? have you not seen the spate of new religions ariveing just as people say its dieing out

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I suspect that religion is older than society. To put it simple: Gods and spirits occur to explain things that is unexplainable a the time (thunder for example). Worship occurs when people came up with the idea to appease these beings to make the odds better in thier favour, on issues that relies on luck. There, now you have religion (depending on how you define religion).

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Im not saying religions perfect and contrary to what other posters have said i did not even say that my examples were compleately atheist states i said relatively unreligous, and as PanzerJager very rightly pointed out those that orchestrated such terrors as the holocaust were either not christians or mad!

Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter, and sacrifice themselves without any religion to hide behind and that is the point im making, appologies if it was not clear

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Point is, the Nazi leadership never (openly) defined Nazi- Germany as anything else than a Christian nation. And while the leadership certainly wasn't christians, that's also applicable to quite few leaders and several of them did consider themself christians, some even as devout christians.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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You've gotten it wrong, you'll get to burn the monks :devilish:
and pushing them hard enough they'll do it for you :evil:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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Hitler probably didn't consider himself as Christian. But there's no doubt many nazis did. Of course, they weren't good Christians, but they also weren't atheists and they certainly weren't laizists. Nazi Germany was a Christian country. Christianity was the official religion, Christian traditions were followed and children were forced to get Christian lectures. Atheists were the victims in Nazi-Germany, not the perpetrators.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Hitler probably didn't consider himself as Christian. But there's no doubt many nazis did. Of course, they weren't good Christians, but they also weren't atheists and they certainly weren't laizists. Nazi Germany was a Christian country. Christianity was the official religion, Christian traditions were followed and children were forced to get Christian lectures. Atheists were the victims in Nazi-Germany, not the perpetrators.

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I completely agree that it is wrong to lump Germany in with the likes of the USSR in attempting to argue that atheist nations are just as violent as religious ones. As you said, atheists were the victims of Nazi crimes, although I think it had more to do with the assumption that atheism was associated with free(and dangerous) thinking, than an actual disbelief in a deity.

However, I do not think it is right to say that Nazi Germany acted as a Christian nation. Most of its leadership, not just Hitler, were occultists. In fact, many lower echelon types succumbed to the Teutonic belief system cultivated long before hitler came to power by the secret societies. The SS was very much a part of that. I do not believe Hitler and the others justified the actions of the nation by divine right, as many Christian nations conducting wars have done either.

The majority of the population in the USSR was also Christian, but it certainly was not a Christian nation. Simply because the Nazis hadnt actively destroyed churches yet, does not make it any more right to say Germany was a Christian nation as it does to say Germany was an atheist nation.

A very well constructed and thoughtful post PJ, now you have a standard to aspire to.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

A very well constructed and thoughtful post PJ, now you have a standard to aspire to.

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Thank you. I am not feeling as incendiary and adversarial as usual, which leads to a bit calmer and more thought out posts. Whether the content of said posts is correct or not is another question entirely. ~;)

werent nazis arians?

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Originally Posted by The Spartan

werent nazis arians?

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No, they weren't followers of Arius' teachings, that I won't go much into here, the part about denying the trinity is enough. The Son is lesser than the Father.

As for Aryans, it's the name of a Indo-European people who established themself as the nobles in India, some thousands years ago. As the language was Indo-European, some ideas about this spreading of this language group was because of a singuar conquest by these Aryans. This supposed conquest was then obviously done by some superior people considering the size of this empire and by some reason thier blood was purest in Germany and Scandinavia (they originated from there or some other mumbo-jumbo).

Most of it is proven false nowadays.

Anyway, to make it short Aryan refers to some supposed race and is completely outside religious matters. Most of the leadership didn't even resemble the idealised picture of how those pure-blooded Aryans would look like anyway.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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The whole purpose of fascism is to make things like values, morals, religious beliefs completely irrelevent to the people under their control. If by Christians you mean people who take christianity very seriously, then the Nazi party members and commanders were not such people. They found something that made them feel 100 times better, direct power and self-godliness. With such power over the world, morality becomes utterly pointless in relation to the running of the state.

In other words they functioned as Christians in society, but as power lusting bastards on the field and the camps.

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In other words they functioned as Christians in society, but as power lusting bastards on the field and the camps.

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Thats just it, most of them were not even nominally Christian, and as their power increased, they became more and more open about that fact.

They were not simply Christians who ignored their faith to persue a decidedly non-Christian agenda, they held a completely different belief system that was based on beliefs that far pre-dated Christianity.

I didn't deny the existence of people who denounced christianity in the Nazi party, but they were in the minority. No one can legitmately base their beliefs to the pre-Christian pagan religions anyways, because that line has been interrupted permanently and any attempt to re-create it is just fake and shallow compared to the original. This would leave that small minority of the people you are talking about just "admirers" and "recreationists" than actuall followers of some other religion.

Their main religion was the party, the state, and holy powers.

EDIT: Also they pursecuted freemasons, so occultism is out of the question.

Yes, but didn't Christians nick a lot of their ideas from the 'older' faiths. The Great Flood for example.

I made a mistake between the old and new testaments. Aplogises all.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Yes, but didn't Christians nick a lot of their ideas from the 'older' faiths. The Great Flood for example.

I made a mistake between the old and new testaments. Aplogises all.

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'Nick' is too strong a word 'Heavily influenced' by is a more fair

If memory serves Zoroastrianism, Mithranism and the Roman cult of sol Invictus are big influences on Christianity...well unless you of coarse the dismiss the idea that it's the 100% word of god and thus absolute truth. :shrug:

The church has also incorperated many pagan customs over the centuries as well.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

I completely agree that it is wrong to lump Germany in with the likes of the USSR in attempting to argue that atheist nations are just as violent as religious ones. As you said, atheists were the victims of Nazi crimes, although I think it had more to do with the assumption that atheism was associated with free(and dangerous) thinking, than an actual disbelief in a deity.

However, I do not think it is right to say that Nazi Germany acted as a Christian nation. Most of its leadership, not just Hitler, were occultists. In fact, many lower echelon types succumbed to the Teutonic belief system cultivated long before hitler came to power by the secret societies. The SS was very much a part of that. I do not believe Hitler and the others justified the actions of the nation by divine right, as many Christian nations conducting wars have done either.

The majority of the population in the USSR was also Christian, but it certainly was not a Christian nation. Simply because the Nazis hadnt actively destroyed churches yet, does not make it any more right to say Germany was a Christian nation as it does to say Germany was an atheist nation.

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Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism. I don't know for how many party members that's also true, but it remains a point that no one had any trouble for being a Christian.
Germany was at that time about as Christian as the other European countries. I certainly don't mean to say that this could happen in Germany because it was a Christian country. I just object to the claim that the holocaust had anything to do with people lacking religious belief.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism. I don't know for how many party members that's also true, but it remains a point that no one had any trouble for being a Christian.
Germany was at that time about as Christian as the other European countries. I certainly don't mean to say that this could happen in Germany because it was a Christian country. I just object to the claim that the holocaust had anything to do with people lacking religious belief.

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alright, this is the second time ive had to repeat myself in this thread, i made sure that i did not claim atheism as the root of all evil or imply that all germans or all russians or all chinese were atheist, the whole argument i am making is that atheism does not make people ''better'' then religious people, not that it makes them ''worse''.

Now hitler wasnt a christian, thats why i mentioned germany, he was an atheist who led people who never the less did evil, now i dont know whether the deluded practices he followed could be considered a religion frankly thats a different argument

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany?

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''Relatively unreligious'' see! i didnt say that germany was atheist just that for those who led it religion was not a prime concern

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism.

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Hitler was never a member of the Thule society. His links with the occult appear to have been a Pragmatic cynicism he considered it useful but ultimatly mumbo-jumbo.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

alright, this is the second time ive had to repeat myself in this thread, i made sure that i did not claim atheism as the root of all evil or imply that all germans or all russians or all chinese were atheist, the whole argument i am making is that atheism does not make people ''better'' then religious people, not that it makes them ''worse''.

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Well, all of you seem to be in circles here, so I'll offer a little outside voice: no one's here claiming Christianity is responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, or the messed up quality of the Nazism "ideology" overall. At least, not seriously.

(I'm just quoting you in particular as the latest post, not as a specified victim ~:) )

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Now hitler wasnt a christian, thats why i mentioned germany, he was an atheist who led people who never the less did evil, now i dont know whether the deluded practices he followed could be considered a religion frankly thats a different argument

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Hello, do you have any actual sources that presents the fact that Hitler is Atheist? I recall that Mein Kampf or similar writings possess no passages attacking Christianity much like he attack the future victims. Not being Christian does not mean being Atheist; there are other religions out there for him to follow, or he could create his own easily enough, considering how messed up he probably was in his head, and how the Nazi propaganda machine touches of strange ideas like the glorified "Teutonic" past or the infamous "Aryan" idea.

In other words, you are (and I assume accidentally) claiming that the Nazi leadership are Atheists: "Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter...".

That is a dubious claim. What's the religion of Heinrich Himmler, Hitler himself, or the men of Totenkopf division? I'm not certain they can be defined simply as "Atheist." Of course, no one's saying they're doing it for Christianity either; albeit one could take a position (which I do not take: too much of a simplification and blame, and ignoring significant facts) that the Nazis are simply playing the extreme of the traditional Medieval Christian attitudes towards Jews and Gypsies, among other minorities...

*****

Now, shall we all get back to topic? Something about Raptures incoming...

I tell you, it's all in the hands of a Japanese high school girl. If she ever gets bored with this world much worse things will happen to our very universe than Rapture, like the utter destruction and replacement of it all...

[/geeky reference--requires knowledge of anime to catch]

"Hitler is a Christian is as Saddam is a Muslim" is the best way I can put it...

Both men ran secular regimes and were only nominally religious at best, although they certainly invoked religion to carry out their plans...

Correct, Reenk. And the Nazis imprisoned or killed Christians who got in their way.

I believed human beings are hard-wired to worship something. Whether this manifests itself in a person as a God or the desire to accumulate wealth and pursue happiness is the question. The pursuit of happiness or even great knowledge can lead one astray just as much as blind religious adherence.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Well, all of you seem to be in circles here, so I'll offer a little outside voice: no one's here claiming Christianity is responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, or the messed up quality of the Nazism "ideology" overall. At least, not seriously.

(I'm just quoting you in particular as the latest post, not as a specified victim ~:) )
Hello, do you have any actual sources that presents the fact that Hitler is Atheist? I recall that Mein Kampf or similar writings possess no passages attacking Christianity much like he attack the future victims. Not being Christian does not mean being Atheist; there are other religions out there for him to follow, or he could create his own easily enough, considering how messed up he probably was in his head, and how the Nazi propaganda machine touches of strange ideas like the glorified "Teutonic" past or the infamous "Aryan" idea.

In other words, you are (and I assume accidentally) claiming that the Nazi leadership are Atheists: "Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter...".

That is a dubious claim. What's the religion of Heinrich Himmler, Hitler himself, or the men of Totenkopf division? I'm not certain they can be defined simply as "Atheist." Of course, no one's saying they're doing it for Christianity either; albeit one could take a position (which I do not take: too much of a simplification and blame, and ignoring significant facts) that the Nazis are simply playing the extreme of the traditional Medieval Christian attitudes towards Jews and Gypsies, among other minorities...

*****

Now, shall we all get back to topic? Something about Raptures incoming...

I tell you, it's all in the hands of a Japanese high school girl. If she ever gets bored with this world much worse things will happen to our very universe than Rapture, like the utter destruction and replacement of it all...

[/geeky reference--requires knowledge of anime to catch]

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my credentials in nazi hostory are poor, now i didnt originally single out hitler anyway, i thought that at least some of the architects of hitlers regime were atheists but perhaps i was wrong it was only a minor part of the point i was making anyway! :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Mithras

Hitler was never a member of the Thule society. His links with the occult appear to have been a Pragmatic cynicism he considered it useful but ultimatly mumbo-jumbo.

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You're right. I confused somthing. However, a number of Nazi officials were members of the Thule Society before it was disbanded.

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my credentials in nazi hostory are poor, now i didnt originally single out hitler anyway, i thought that at least some of the architects of hitlers regime were atheists but perhaps i was wrong it was only a minor part of the point i was making anyway!

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I get your point (and you're right), I just find it a bit offensive to say that Nazi Germany was an atheist society when atheists were one of the minorities prosecuted in Nazi Germany.

Maybe Im crazy (or Catholic), but isnt the idea of predicting apocalypse contrary to the whole point of Christianity? You should be prepared for the end because you never know when it's coming.

:inquisitive: Well done, you guys are playing so nicely I might have to move this to the monastery. ~:bow:

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Originally Posted by Lehesu

I believed human beings are hard-wired to worship something.

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No, this is false, I and many others are completely atheist. It is fear of what happens in the afterlife and the unknown that drives us to religion, as all religion promise a good afterlife to those that do good.

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Originally Posted by Shaun

No, this is false, I and many others are completely atheist. It is fear of what happens in the afterlife and the unknown that drives us to religion, as all religion promise a good afterlife to those that do good.

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You ever read Pascal Boyer's Religion Explained? Boyer's thesis has some problems of its own (I must confess that I am favorably inclined towards religion though) but it still does a much better job "explaining" religion than the reasons you have given above. Boyer spends a great deal of time pointing out the deficiencies of them...

Even so, Religion cannot be logically or scientificly explained, and that is what matters most if something has to be proved or explained.

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Originally Posted by Shaun

Even so, Religion cannot be logically or scientificly explained, and that is what matters most if something has to be proved or explained.

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You must live a tortured life. So many mysteries in life that cannot be explained by logic and science! How ever can I encapsulate all of my surroundings into knowledge!?

And you misunderstood my definition of worship. The drive to succeed can be as much as an infinite trap as religion, or any other passion for that matter. The "death" formula of religion generally only becomes an issue when one becomes much older.

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Originally Posted by Shaun

Even so, Religion cannot be logically or scientificly explained, and that is what matters most if something has to be proved or explained.

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You're missing my point...

Go and read the book or a summary of it, then you will understand Boyer's thesis (in summary)...

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Originally Posted by Lehesu

You must live a tortured life. So many mysteries in life that cannot be explained by logic and science!

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such as?

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Originally Posted by Big_John

such as?

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Exactly how does a candle burn?