Re: The Tribal Way of War
Keep in mind that America has never seen the horrors of war on our own homeland. Yes, I am American, but I am also of Chinese descent. Hearing my grandparents stories of bombings of their cities by the Japanese, the massacres and crimes commited by soldiers, my grandfather's war stories against the Japanes and the communists, and so on have shaped my sense of what its like to fight when your family is being killed.
Thus, America's views are very different. I know that French (and now even German) bashing is quite popular in America but at the same time, I understand what it would be like if an entire generation of your men were killed in battle, and your country laid to waste.
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca
Keep in mind that America has never seen the horrors of war on our own homeland. Yes, I am American, but I am also of Chinese descent. Hearing my grandparents stories of bombings of their cities by the Japanese, the massacres and crimes commited by soldiers, my grandfather's war stories against the Japanes and the communists, and so on have shaped my sense of what its like to fight when your family is being killed.
Thus, America's views are very different. I know that French (and now even German) bashing is quite popular in America but at the same time, I understand what it would be like if an entire generation of your men were killed in battle, and your country laid to waste.
I understand your point, but the USA did have one of the nastiest civil wars within the territory, and not that long ago.
America may not have had an invasive war within still living memory, but they have certainly seen the body bags returning in numbers from Vietnam and Korea.
I may be wrong, but my US friends tell me the Iraq war is not having the same kind of coverage of the wounded and killed, perhaps muting the impact of the casualties.
But I'm pretty sure Americans appreciate the horrors of war well enough (perhaps not with the intensity of a Lebanese, though).
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Wow, this thread has gone all over. I have been content to sit back and enjoy the action but I am compelled to interject my observation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
I may be wrong, but my US friends tell me the Iraq war is not having the same kind of coverage of the wounded and killed, perhaps muting the impact of the casualties.
I think it is exactly the opposite. Because of the low death toll, every killed solider gets over exposure, not that they don’t deserve recognition but it makes front page news every time someone from the area is seriously injured or killed, and if it is not a very big news day they will go way into it. Definitely not muting the impact of the casualties but almost sensationalizing it. Just an observation from my area. :bow:
And since I am interjecting I might as well comment on the topic and original article… Knowing your enemy is good and the US is typically more into smashing our square peg into our enemies round hole (take that how you like giggity giggity) to worry about an enemies tactics. If we throw enough bombs on them their tactics wont matter, could easily be an Americans take on almost any situation. ~D It is definitely not our technological advantage that hinders us, if anything it helps our survivability and builds our troops experience (there are not very many experienced suicide bombers:wink:). I do think our tech does perpetuate our desire for quick results though.
Knowing and understanding the enemy and even our allies in the Middle East is very difficult for me and most average Joe Americans IMO, because their culture and way of life is just soooo different. We value life, education and peace above all (civilian shields is unheard of) and even thou we almost always have a knee jerk reaction to fight whatever opposes us the desire to fight often fades quickly and it’s back to normal in no time (forgive and forget, lets make some money). I have the hardest time understanding why “they” just wont stop fighting us, we are bigger, stronger and richer then them, why fight us, “they” are just going to die (or live in a cave without power, water, bridges, etc.). Why not just sell us some oil and rebuild your country? I can even give a dozen answers to that question but I think it is how average Joe views the situation and every time gas prices go up a penny we become less and less sensitive to the situation.
Bottom line is, knowing your enemy takes time and I don’t even have time to wait for my microwave popcorn I am not going to spend the time to learn about the culture of someone I don’t like. What’s that, gas prices just went up 25 cents? Average Joe’s finger moves ever closer to the glass making button.
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
I think it is exactly the opposite. Because of the low death toll, every killed solider gets over exposure, not that they don’t deserve recognition but it makes front page news every time someone from the area is seriously injured or killed, and if it is not a very big news day they will go way into it. Definitely not muting the impact of the casualties but almost sensationalizing it. Just an observation from my area. :bow:
Well, you're there and I'm not, so I will accept your point-of-view. :bow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Bottom line is, knowing your enemy takes time and I don’t even have time to wait for my microwave popcorn I am not going to spend the time to learn about the culture of someone I don’t like. What’s that, gas prices just went up 25 cents? Average Joe’s finger moves ever closer to the glass making button.
Fair point, but I think your generals and politicians might have the time and intellect to make the effort since they're the ones making the decisions. :idea2:
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Yeah the media gives a lot more attention to a few soldiers killed because death rates are very low (actually, very little attention in contrast is paid to the large number of wounded soldiers because they're a LOT more common than KIA's now).
As for the American psyche... the Civil War was fought in 1861-1865. The last veterans of that war to die have already many many decades ago. In Europe and Asia, however, veterans of WW2 are still alive. My grandfather died recently but many of his companions in the war are still around.
The American Civil War was quite bloody, but, it was truly the last of the Napoleonic-era of wars, where battles were fought nearly strictly between armies, disease and wounds killed more than battle. Though true total war, scorched earth policies, entrenchment, etc. grew in the late phases of the war, the war didn't have a large impact on major civilian populations.
It's very easy for people to say, let's go to war, while they sit comfortably at home at their computer. It's much harder to actually send them in to fight. And in that way, we have been disadvantaged in long drawn out wars, where benefits aren't immediate or tangible to us at home, hence morale and popularity of longer wars have gone down (this is true in general for almost every country). But that is what it is.
Re: The Tribal Way of War
I think the big problem you have is that you think they're more different than they are.
I go into your house, rape your wife and daughter, then beat them to death and shoot your son. They my mates and I burn your house down.
You're going to be baying for my blood and there's nothing I can ever do for you to forgive me.
Thats the basic psychology of it.
As to drive, Vietnam killed your army and it was in a state before then. There wasn't even a general training manual until the late 70's!
I don't know what it is but the British have this thing about war, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets, the more angry we get. We get angry at the enemy. Its the "bloody ground" mentality.
"You made us bleed for this so we're going to :furious3: finish it.
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
I think the big problem you have is that you think they're more different than they are.
I go into your house, rape your wife and daughter, then beat them to death and shoot your son. They my mates and I burn your house down.
You're going to be baying for my blood and there's nothing I can ever do for you to forgive me.Thats the basic psychology of it.
As to drive, Vietnam killed your army and it was in a state before then. There wasn't even a general training manual until the late 70's! I don't know what it is but the British have this thing about war, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets, the more angry we get. We get angry at the enemy. Its the "bloody ground" mentality. "You made us bleed for this so we're going to :furious3: finish it.
Hey there WI,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but much has entailed to intervene in our tete a tete. First, let me say that after much deliberation over your previous suggestions about how America ought to deal with the Iraqis, you are right in much of what you suggest. I should like to qualify this, by saying insomuch as we are dealing with those Iraqis not trying to kill the coalition soldiers, and for those who are in support of our goal of a "free" Iraq. For those who just can't find a way to accept that a change is taking place, such as the Sunnis and the radical Islamic insurgents who support them, then I would suggest seperating them from mainstream Iraq. Give them their own slice of the pie and deal them out of the game. If they don't accept this, then they must be made to do so. That is why we call it war.
Secondly, I agree totally with your first staement above. There is no excuse for such dishonorable behavior by the soldiers of any army in my book. Restitution must be made and justice must be satisfied. It is my belief that the perpetrators of these acts should be turned over to Iraq's courts as a sign of respect for the new government. As long as we shield our own from the consequences of their actions, than trust cannot be attained.
As to your second statement, it is precisely our experience in Vietnam that made us detest long and protracted wars ending in failure that "drives" us to see this from becoming another such war. As to our ability to get angry at an enemy, I would remind us all of the sacrifices of many of our young men at such places as Okinowa, Iwo Jima, Peleliu, Omaha Beach, Pork Chop Hill, Bastogne, and many others. Americans can also "finish it" as well as anyone else. The fact that we keep trying, even when we are losing, should warn our foes that we are not so easily deterred as they might think. It will take a bit more than a beheading, or a debate or two in the Senate or House of Represenatives over our policies to make us give in. One of the qualities of Americans in a fight is our unpredictability. These people misunderstand us just as much as we do them, and they are just as human as we are as well. Therefore, they should not underestimate us, and they are seriously underestimating the depth of our feelings after 9/11, or our disgust over their cowardly tactics.
I will agree with you in principal that we should try to be seen more as the protector of the Iraqi people, and show them that we are willing to "bleed" for them and empathize with their plight. On the other hand, they must be willing to do their part in the fight if they wish to be free.
I pray to my God daily for the people of Iraq, and Islamic countries everywhere that we can all come to an understanding. I have no wish to kill anyone, but will protect myself and my comrades from harm in anyway I must if I serve in Iraq. Damn the leaders of all sides who could find no other way to solve their problems! If only they were the ones doing the fighting.
Respectfully,
Re: The Tribal Way of War
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorgun
Hey there WI,
As to your second statement, it is precisely our experience in Vietnam that made us detest long and protracted wars ending in failure that "drives" us to see this from becoming another such war. As to our ability to get angry at an enemy, I would remind us all of the sacrifices of many of our young men at such places as Okinowa, Iwo Jima, Peleliu, Omaha Beach, Pork Chop Hill, Bastogne, and many others. Americans can also "finish it" as well as anyone else. The fact that we keep trying, even when we are losing, should warn our foes that we are not so easily deterred as they might think. It will take a bit more than a beheading, or a debate or two in the Senate or House of Represenatives over our policies to make us give in. One of the qualities of Americans in a fight is our unpredictability. These people misunderstand us just as much as we do them, and they are just as human as we are as well. Therefore, they should not underestimate us, and they are seriously underestimating the depth of our feelings after 9/11, or our disgust over their cowardly tactics.
Good post.
I'd just like to talk about the Vietnam thing, hence the quote above. America was very "hearts and minds" in Vietnam, unfortunately it didn't get you very far. Up until the Tet offensive you were fighting a Police action without actually trying to engage the enemy, the NVA. Thats fine, you did the right thing, the problem was you couldn't police the area properly and stop the NVA and Viet Cong from moving back in after you moved out.
So afterwards you sat back and learned the lessons, the Army got a big doctrinal and organizational shake-up. Unfortunately Vietnam killed off a lot of the NCO corps and "institution" and America has been rebuilding it ever since. There's still a way to go before the US-Army gets back to its WWII standard but its a long way there and very good at conventional warfighting.
I'm sorry if this sounds a bit patronizing but this is my understanding from what I've read of American military authors and experts, including some of the men that began putting the machine back together.
The problem that remains, as I see it, is that Vietnam, as you say, created an aversion to war that wasn't there before and that as a result there is far too much of an emphasis on "bringing our boys home."
Look at the resources that are put into bringing home a downed pilot, for example, from a logistical standpoint its usually overkill, granted its good for moral. British soldiers would also say that Americans often wear too much armour and are too comfortable in their vehicles.
America worries too much about every individual soldier, every day, and I think it usually serves to draw out the conflict, as it is here, and cause more casualties in the long run. A prime example would be the attack on Saddam's sons. That was either shameful overkill or shamefull operational control (I have heard that basically it was a free-for-all with every American unit in the area gravitating towards the situation).
As it was the operation should probably be classed a failure.