Iraq War has angered and increased Islamic terrorism.

First off, thank you Seamus. You're better at this than I. Tribesy: See Seamus' post.

Yep I will , in the meantime you can see about the recent history in Sudan .

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No political decision can be made in full knowledge of both the intended and unintended consequences.

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But in this case either no thought was put into looking at or even planning for the consequences and knowledge that was available was blindly ignored .

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Ah, its so clear now. Perhaps, since you have determined that we've already lost and that no possibility exists for victory

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There never was a possibility of victory , not a victory under the objectives that Bush claimed were the objectives .

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it would be expedient of us to simply coordinate our withdrawals so that Iranian forces could take over the kasernes quickly.

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You are handing over to the Iranian forces , and claiming it as progress .

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Since no matter what time or effort we put in, a civil war resulting in an Iranian puppet state is the only possible outcome.

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Time and effort are too late now , thats what happens when you rush in without thought , the Iranian puppet state in the South is being properly formed from last week with the vote on federalisation (and of course re writting the constitution) , the formation of the Iranian puppet state in the north depends on how the resumption of hostilities between the Israeli backed and Iranian backed factions turns out or how widely it spreads .

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I don't believe that the Iraqi population carries the degree of animus you assume.

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Support for attacks on coilition forces has increased to 78% from 16% in 2003

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for the most part, they'd like more personal security and better infrastructure and for everyone to get out of the way of them living their lives.

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Yep and that is where the invasion failed , big time .

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Ah, but then you revel in labeling someone ignorant. I trust that you do so only to further the growth of knowledge and that you never take any pleasure in belittling someone else.

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Well , sometimes a good kick in the posterior is a good way to get someone to remove their head from it and actually have a look around , though of course sometimes it only serves to make them ram it up there even further .
The conflict in Sudan (or should that be conflicts) is a very good case to show why GC is so wrong and how other countries are impeding any progress because there is something there they want and they don't see why they cannot have it .Though at least thay only abstained instead of calling uncle veto at the last vote .

Anyhow , back to Iraq Seamus , the military announced that they lost sadr-city ....again .
Could you send a memo to the Pentagon , suggest looking down the back of the sofa , its amazing what you can lose down there .

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

We shouldn't involve ourselves with the rest of the world unless it will enrich the nation somehow--economically, militarily, strategically, whatever. That said, done right, there are ample opportunities for intervensionism which will lead to exactly that.

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Do you think your relationship with Israel enriches the US? Or is Israel the exception that proves the rule?

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

Why i can't tell US what to do?
I can't but because i am a citizen of Europe, i can act,we Europeans can act.I don't think the russians can make the mistake to attack european countries.They are the real power in the world.They stay low and they don't attract the attention of the world.They don't involve in wars where they lose a lot of me.The could destroy america ,they have a lot of nuclear weapons and submarines and everything.Although i hate the russians i must admit that they are not fools.You involved in the war in Iraq because your price for oil was a very VERY VERY VERY big.Your economy falls with the oil.US-OIL=Nothing.So you depend on oil.I don't think EU depends on it.My friend anti-Americanism is all over the world.There are more people that hate america than US's populations.
Europe can unite under one sign of threat,and in the face of europe nothing stands,so Europe RULEZ.In 2007 even Romania and Bulgaria enters in our big community Europe.Show me an empire that still exist.Your country has no history.So this are the words of a smart man that knew something.



"A country without history is a country without future"(like you USA)


Don't stand against Europe because you will fall

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Oh, I so love the irony of this. :laugh4:

Poor Rumsfeld, thinking that slipping a few bucks to some former communist leaders bought himself the support of his 'New Europe'. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Have you read the interview Blair gave to Newsnight on the eve of the Iraq war in February 2003? Just about every worry voiced by the studio audience (general public, not professional analysts) has been proven true. Hindsight is always clear, but foresight can sometimes be equally obvious. Blair is hated not because he made a mistake (goodness knows we've forgiven him before), but because we had warned him, repeatedly, that this would be a mistake, even before the event, and he ignored us and mired us in this debacle.

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And, as earlier posts I have made will confirm, I am far from satisfied with the planning efforts before Iraq. When we took out Germany and Japan in 1945, we had people tasked -- for years -- with developing occupation plans, assessing possible resistance, etc. We clearly did nothing along these lines before March of 2003, and are paying the price for it.

If the interviewer and his audience were a representative example of British opinion (and I know nothing of this program or its reputation), Blair did not have sufficient support for war, and should have been pushing Bush hard on that point. No dog in that fight for me, I'm a yank with an outsider's understanding of UK politics, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by drone

I was under the distinct impression that our political power in the international arena was somewhat diminished, especially at the UN. Recently, it's very chic to spout anti-American diatribes in front of the esteemed representitives gathered there, where they receive rave reviews.

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So? Just go in there and say we should under no circumstances help Sudan. Perhaps a few of those anti-US representatives will get motivated to do something besides talk.

You are a super power.But you can be a super power just when you have the permission.One country cannot stand against the all others(with the all others i want to say the old continent,for those who didn't know the old continent is Europe,the most powerful continent).America without oil is like a fish on the land,which slowly dies.You depend on the oil from Russia and other countries.

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

(with the all others i want to say the old continent,for those who didn't know the old continent is Europe,the most powerful continent).

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The American Girl Scouts of the United States could whoop Europe's collective ass armed only with girl scout cookies and feminist pamplets.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

The American Girl Scouts of the United States could whoop Europe's collective ass armed only with girl scout cookies and feminist pamplets.

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....both weapon classes that have been specifically banned by the Geneva conventions as cruel and inhuman.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

The American Girl Scouts of the United States could whoop Europe's collective ass armed only with girl scout cookies and feminist pamplets.

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Thin-Mints FTW! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

The American Girl Scouts of the United States could whoop Europe's collective ass armed only with girl scout cookies and feminist pamplets.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

....both weapon classes that have been specifically banned by the Geneva conventions as cruel and inhuman.

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Well, that depends om how you define your enemies, doesn't it? I've heard a lot of the "they're neither US citizens nor lawful combatants so we don't have to treat them nice" lately. :inquisitive:

Ok.You want banned weapons.Then we will do that too.In Russia there are enough banned weapons to kill al the planets population.Europe has enough nuclear boms for all your towns.So ,no banned weapons.
BANNED WEAPONS=END OF THE WORLD

Someone seems to have missed the joke.

Girl Scouts of America and for grins, Girl Scout cookies

I'll not link to feminist pamphlets, but I'm sure you can find some through Google.

Take a deep breath, and :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by drone

Someone seems to have missed the joke.

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What joke? Those thin mints in the right hands make Ricin look like mouth wash. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

What joke? Those thin mints in the right hands make Ricin look like mouth wash. :laugh4:

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The trans-fat is usually fatal by the fourth bag. :skull:

In response to this story, Bush says he's going to declassify the April NIE so people can get the whole story...

This page has some video highlights from the press interview with Bush and Karzai where he announces it.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

In response to this story, Bush says he's going to declassify the April NIE so people can get the whole story...

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What, by declassifying only selected parts of it? :inquisitive:

The homefront demands #1 attention with ANY country.

Iraq was not worth 1 soldiers life. End of discussion.

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What, by declassifying only selected parts of it?

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Damn , you beat me to it .:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)

You are a super power.But you can be a super power just when you have the permission.One country cannot stand against the all others(with the all others i want to say the old continent,for those who didn't know the old continent is Europe,the most powerful continent).America without oil is like a fish on the land,which slowly dies.You depend on the oil from Russia and other countries.

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I like you

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Originally Posted by Spetulhu

What, by declassifying only selected parts of it? :inquisitive:

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Seems fair- that's what the leaker did. :wink:
Anyone think we'll see any investigations on who's behind this latest politically motivated leak?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Seems fair- that's what the leaker did. :wink:
Anyone think we'll see any investigations on who's behind this latest politically motivated leak?

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It's not much of a leak - we knew this would happen even before the war. Iraq would want to split up, but the neighbouring countries won't allow Kurdish independence, the Shia majority will mean increasing Iranian influence in the region, the occupiers wanting neither civil war nor Iranian influence and thus will be forced to remain there at ruinous cost, nascent American imperialism confirmed by the invasion and occupation leading to increasing terrorism at home, etc. All of that was predicted before the war, summed up in the phrase "grabbing the tiger by the tail" - holding on annoys the tiger ever more, while letting go results in a savaging by the tiger. No good choices now, but all this avoidable if we hadn't grabbed the tiger by the tail in the first place.

Have you read the Blair Iraq interview I linked to on page 2? Note the points raised by the interviewer and the audience, and note the date. Edit: It's actually on this page.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

Seems we had a relatively decent relationship/understanding with many of the countries we are now fighting in until we were invited by terrorists to come and fight them in the countries they were hiding in. Had the countries harboring terrorists taken care of them, contained them or at least told them not to piss off the US too bad, everything would have been relatively the same. Instead they couldn’t control what was happening within their own boarders (or were encouraging it, $25,000 bonus to the family of a suicide bomber) thereby inviting the most hated country in the world to come over and make a stinking mess out of everything. Don’t want the US to stomp around your country, screwing everything up; don’t give us a reason to notice you.

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Do you have cites for Iraq offering $25,000 to the family of a suicide bomber who had attacked the US?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Do you have cites for Iraq offering $25,000 to the family of a suicide bomber who had attacked the US?

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Not the US, but our allies. Wanna guess which one? :smile:
Here is a link to a BBC article.


edit: the 911 report has some great info on Iraqi terrorist support.

Here's the link for the declassified key judgements from the NIE.

Im not sure where Democrats were trying to go with this... it's pretty clear about the fact the withdrawing from Iraq would be a catastrophe and the importance of winning.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

The American Girl Scouts of the United States could whoop Europe's collective ass armed only with girl scout cookies and feminist pamplets.

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Do send them over. I'll surrender my arse to your girl scouts... :wink3:

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

Not the US, but our allies. Wanna guess which one? :smile:
Here is a link to a BBC article.


edit: the 911 report has some great info on Iraqi terrorist support.

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Do you provide this defence service for all your allies? Pakistan has provided the radicalism for the London bombers, and they've recently come to an agreement with the Taliban not to pursue them. Since we are commonly described as your closest allies, could you do us a service and invade Pakistan as you've invaded Iraq? As Israel could not provide troops to help you invade Iraq, we regretfully will not be able to provide troops for an invasion of Pakistan either.

So will you invade Pakistan for us, your bestest and closest friends? Or does Israel hold a special place in the hearts of the Americans, that you are willing to spend half a trillion dollars to help punish one of their enemies? Imagine the tax cuts you could have had had you not invaded Iraq.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Do send them over. I'll surrender my arse to your girl scouts... :wink3:

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How old are you Louis :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Do you provide this defence service for all your allies? Pakistan has provided the radicalism for the London bombers, and they've recently come to an agreement with the Taliban not to pursue them. Since we are commonly described as your closest allies, could you do us a service and invade Pakistan as you've invaded Iraq? As Israel could not provide troops to help you invade Iraq, we regretfully will not be able to provide troops for an invasion of Pakistan either.

So will you invade Pakistan for us, your bestest and closest friends? Or does Israel hold a special place in the hearts of the Americans, that you are willing to spend half a trillion dollars to help punish one of their enemies? Imagine the tax cuts you could have had had you not invaded Iraq.

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Very true. All the while countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are allies of America the "War on Terror" is doomed to failure. Hey, Pakistan ticks all the right boxes on the who to invade list:
a) Military regime after overthrow of democratic govt. Check.
b) Known to possess WMDs. Check.
c) Known to harbour terrorists, with or without official sanction. Check.
d) Identified as a source of direct threats to the West and/or regional stability. Check.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Do send them over. I'll surrender my arse to your girl scouts... :wink3:

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Naughty, naughty.... I'm sure he means the Den mothers.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Very true. All the while countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are allies of America the "War on Terror" is doomed to failure. Hey, Pakistan ticks all the right boxes on the who to invade list:
a) Military regime after overthrow of democratic govt. Check.
b) Known to possess WMDs. Check.
c) Known to harbour terrorists, with or without official sanction. Check.
d) Identified as a source of direct threats to the West and/or regional stability. Check.

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But Pakistan plays Cricket therefore unchecked (and this over-rules all other options). :laugh4: