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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Tiberius, Servius has no intention of installing himself as king, that is nothing but fear-mongering on your part. He has already declared his intention to retire to his estates on Palma once his consulship is over and Iberia has been broken.
And you witter on about the constitution, yet forget (accidentally on purpose no doubt) that under the constitution, Servius cannot be prosecuted for anything as long as he holds office. I call once again for this session to be closed immediately on these grounds.
For what its worth, I support your motion 4. However, its competely worthless. If you, or any other powerful Roman general for that matter, now or in the future, decides to enforce his will through the use of his legions, I doubt that a motion such as yours would deter him.
Finally, so Servius thinks himself chosen specially by the Gods. Who are you or anyone else to say that he is not? Look at his achievements Conscript Fathers. Just because someone has the blessing and favour of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, it does not mean they have to be modest about it, eh?
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
I whole heartedly second emergency motions 2 and 3. We are facing a dictatorship here. The day when the Consul may decide the most serious political matters of the Republic without the approval of the Senate is the day we return a King to the throne. This body nearly impeached Augustus Verginius for turning over lands to the Germans, even though there was no law preventing this action. Yet here today many are coming to the defense of a man who has blatantly violated the single most important restriction on the Consulate.
There can be no question about this matter. The proper course of action for a Consul who has violated the laws of the Republic is impeachment, at a minimum. Servius Aemilius has declared war on Iberia without Senate approval, in blatant violation of the laws of the Republic. There is no way around these facts. Servius Aemilius MUST be impeached for the sake of the Republic. It is the duty of all Romans to uphold Republican law. Any who refuse to impeach Servius Aemilius are themselves accomplices to treason and should be dealt with accordingly.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Senators,
What is this madness? Our Consul is one whom I have trusted with my life and yet he would be impeached by the Senate for doing what many of us have already been thinking of?
For killing a lier and a cheat?
Why would you people have the Consul do otherwise?
Senators, I can but only accept critisim against the Consul for starting an open war against Iberia BUT....I have certainly long predicted a war was inevitable and we have been dodging this for so many years it has become an embarresment!
An embarresment to the Republic! The barbarians mock us and they prepare for a war against us because we are seen as weak by them.
Yes, we know we are strong, we know of our successes in the East and in Afrika but they do not, nor do they care for such "tails".
All they understand is strength of arms and only that strength that THEY can see and feel. That is their nature.
The Consul has merely been brave enough to pre-empt the Barbarians own strike against us.
I do, however, slightly worry for the Consul's health. His last consular report had some elements were worrying to me and it would please me if it were possible for me to relinquish command here and go to him, as a friend, and talk with him.
That said, I have and always will be his friend and ally. I would follow this man against all enemies we would face.
Hence, I do not support these motions in any form.
Manius the Victor
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I am glad there are a few men of integrity still left in this place. The venerable Praetor Coruncanius leads the way, as he as always done. And young Cnaeus Caprarius comes forward to carry on the torch of duty, honour and the old Roman ways.
But to the rest of you Senators who have spoken, I say this: Your fawning before the Consul merely augurs the death of the Republic. We are a nation of law - it is what binds us together, protects against the vagaries of personal ambition and whim. This bond is broken when we, the guardians of Rome, her protectors, sanction an unconstitutional act merely because it is for an end that we support.
You want war with Iberia? Fine, you have it. But that is irrelevant to this debate. If you wanted war with Iberia, you should have argued for it here. Even the servile Marcellus was too faint hearted to advocate such an act when I called his bluff recently in this house. None of you dared argue for that course, knowing such a war to be unnecessary, reckless and rapacious. But if you want war with Iberia, fine. You know what should have been done. A motion should have been brought forward. The required majority obtained. The Consul dully authorised. If you wanted it, you should have done it but done it right. Not this way. Not by the fiat of the Consul. Not by breaking one of the founding rules of the constitution that we have abided by throughout recorded history.
Senators, we should go home. Go, now, back to your villas. Shut down this place. When the Consul can tread over the constitution just because he does not agree with the consensus in the Senate, what purpose is there in us staying here? We are not needed. Let the Consul merely imprint out likenesses on a seal and use it to stamp any edict he chooses. Nay, why bother with edicts or motions? Let the Consul merely wake up every morning and decide what service he would like our great country, his cheap harlot, to perform for him that day!
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Senators, this issue puts me in an impossible position.
On one hand, we are now at war with Iberia. I obviously advocated this, and am pleased that it has now begun. However, I am not pleased with the method that Servius, my nephew, has begun this.
Unless this invasion was begun with an Iberian attack on Roman soil, I do believe that this move was in fact, illegal. If this was any other person aside from an Aemilius, I would obviously call for impeachment.
So, Senators, I am now turn. Where do my loyalties lie? With my kin or the law? This is a question nobody should have to answer, yet here I am, posed that very question.
Until I get more time to think on this, I shall abstain from all procedures relating to this incident.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Senators,
While I feel the dissension amongst you, you must realize that the decisions we are making in this emergency session concern the most vital issues on which Rome is founded. Ever since the glorious day of Brutus, the senate has guarded the Republic. Countless citizens trust us to safeguard them from evil despots. Alone amongst all the nations in the world (sotto voice: except Carthage) our citizens are free, and not serfs of some capricious ruler.
Now you are called upon to show your worthiness of this most important of responsibilities ! Your actions in this session will determine the fate of our Republic. Will we submit and start on the road to becoming yet anther despot empire ? Or shall we stand straight as true Romans and punish this abuser of power !
I will not second Emergency motion 1 ! With his unconstitutional actions Servius Aemilius has lost the right to all honours his previous successes might have warranted.
I will definitely second Emergency motion 2 and I call upon all those present to set aside their personal feelings towards this consul and to live up to their responsibility as guardian of the state !
I will not second Emergency motion 3. The killing of a man's own slave does not require a sanction under our laws. I, for one, will not miss UPS Maximus in the least.
I will also second Emergency Motion 4, although I regret that this has become necessary.
Lastly, and it pains me to enter these motions, as it concerns my own grandson, I will submit
Emergency motion 5: Because of excessive abuse of power, Servius Aemilius is immediately removed from office, banished from Italy and loses all rights as a Roman citizen.
Emergency motion 6: Because of excessive abuse of power, Servius Aemilius is to be considered an enemy of the state. It is the duty of any freedom-loving Roman to kill him on sight.
His responsibility for all the Romans that will die in this unprovoked war with Iberia calls for no less.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
(Appius Barbatus)
I will, with a heavy heart, second emergency Motion 5. As the esteemed Numerius Aureolus has said, the constitution and the laws which govern us cannot be trampled in such a way. If we allow this to move forward unchecked, then Rome loses its strength and becomes just another kingdom on its way to dissolution.
However, I cannot agree with Motion 6. Though his actions endanger the Republic's western border, I do not believe Consul Aemilius is willfully attempting to undermine or destroy Rome itself. Rather, he is attempting to take it for his own. Though there is no Lucretia involved, the state itself, our laws and honour, have been continuously raped by this man, and he must suffer the same punishment as that Tarquin of old.
May I remind you, gentlemen, of the words of the Greek named Aristotle. To be without one's city is worse than death.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Enough of this ridiculous talk of Servius setting himself up as King!
He has already stated his wish to retire to Palma. If he does so Conscript Fathers, might I be so adventurous as to suggest that he would not be positioning himself to sit on a Roman throne?
All this talk of Servius usurping the Senate is ridiculous. War with Iberia has been brewing for decades. Matter of fact it has only NOT happened because of a mixture of prudent restraint and flat out shameful cowardice on our behalf. During the consulship of Servius, this house discussed at great length a pre-emptive war with Iberia, and agreed to such a war. Why else were out Legions positioned so? I myself am at the west end of Afrika precisely because under the plan laid before the Senate my Legion is to strike into southern Iberia. The only thing missing from this attack was a motion authorising it, little more than a rubber stamp.
Furthermore, we are at last coming to the aid of our hard-pressed (and only!) allies, Germania. Do we need a motion to aid an ally? Is Roman honour, is the word of a Roman reliant upon the selfish and unpredictable votes of a bunch of rich old men?
Finally Senators, why do you antagonise Servius? Lucius, you are the greatest Aemilli of us all, why must you propose such provocative motions? Surely you know that Servius is not a man for backing down? With such motions you do threaten not just Servius, but yourself, the house of Aemilii and all of Rome.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I will second motion 5. I cannot in conscience sanction motion 6, for, having condemned Servius for wantonly spilling blood, I cannot then turn around and do likewise.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Senator Oppius Aemilius,
If war with Iberia was so heavily supported within the Senate and so urgently necessary, why did the Consul not call an emergency session of his own to get a legal declaration of war? This is not an inflexible body and if the proper procedures had been used, this issue would not have arisen. The fact that a legal declaration of war could have been obtained is, if anything, even more condemning of the Consul's actions. He could have gained all he sought, yet chose to brush aside the most basic laws of the Senate! He has shown nothing but contempt for the Republic and deserves the same in return.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Motion 5 will have my support. Motion 6 will just prove our dear leader right about himself, and we wouldn't want that, would we?
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Senator Oppius Aemilius,
If war with Iberia was so heavily supported within the Senate and so urgently necessary, why did the Consul not call an emergency session of his own to get a legal declaration of war? This is not an inflexible body and if the proper procedures had been used, this issue would not have arisen. The fact that a legal declaration of war could have been obtained is, if anything, even more condemning of the Consul's actions. He could have gained all he sought, yet chose to brush aside the most basic laws of the Senate! He has shown nothing but contempt for the Republic and deserves the same in return.
*A clerk within the senate speaks up.* Actually, Senator, I believe the consul has probably taken the actions he has because this is an extremely inflexible body. May I make a few quotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I also stand with Senator Aureolus. Our many wars have begun for numerous different reasons, but our objectives have always been the same: benefits for the Roman people, be they in security, wealth, slaves, or other things. There is little to be gained from Iberia. The barbarians are of little threat to our trained Legions, especially with the strong border that Consul Servius Aemilius has so masterfully constructed.
Yet in the East, Seleucia and Ptolemy control vast and prosperous territories. With Italy, Greece, Macedon and Carthage already under our control, the Eastern territories are the only rich lands in the known world not subject to Republican rule. Wars must be fought for the benefit of the Roman people. There is no benefit to be had in Iberian territories. Let us continue to push eastwards.
You made this statement directly following our consul's support of the Iberian war.
The consul had made this statement before the majority of the dissenting opinions from Marcellus's view had been heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucjan
I do not feel that such extensive eastward expansion would yet benefit the strengths of the Republic. If Marcellus promises to maintain the borders "as is" in our Asian lands, when my consulship ends, I will stand behind him should he make a bid for the consulship. Provided there is nothing of any significance that I would have to dispute him on.
Later on, after full support of the senate had been propped up behind Numerious. Judging from past experience, how could the consul have possibly obtained a motion to go to war with Iberia, which he clearly supported with Marcellus, when the entirety of the senate stood against this? You know the senators do not change their minds unless their own assets seems to be endangered. Don't be so foolhardy as to suggest that they do. The consul made a compliant remark with the support for the east after that and then the following statements were made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamur
Do I indeed hear no dissenting voice besides our esteemed but misguided colleage, Marcellus Aemilius? It is indeed a strange day in the Senate, what odd events await us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucjan
Indeed, even I seem to be left uncontested in my thoughts. Truly this must mean the end of the world. *Servius laughs cynically.*
Unless I'm mistaken it seems that this time around the consul has managed to not get himself verbally assaulted, kicked around, threatened with impeachment and otherwise harassed by this senate by just nodding to make us happy then ignoring us.
We have nothing to complain about with this new development. It is this senate who has caused this. This senate, in its treatment of that man, created its own monster.
If you are fearful of Servius's now blatant ignorance of the senate's wishes, perhaps his treatment in the past should have been more like an equal and less like the senate's play thing.
I do not see a senator here who hadn't at one point in time stood steadfastly against one of the consul's ideas, then quickly changed his tune when the idea bore more fruit than the one they had supported.
Pass whatever motions you wish, but I have watched this senate and I have watched the consul throughout these years. It is the actions of this senate that will determine whether this republic stays a republic. Letting the consul have his way will see him return to Palma in a few short years, when Iberia has been laid to rest, and he will not return to these courts again. But if you take this chance to stick yet one more dagger in his back, then watch yourselves. He has outmaneouvered and outsmarted the Seleucids, the Carthaginians, and now, even this senate in order to see his intentions through. Mark my words senators, if Servius is threatened, there will be war. There will be war, and the republic....will fall.
On your own heads be it.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Once again, Servius sends a servant to debate with the House. What arrogance!
Clerk - sit down, boy, and watch yourself with your master. Your predecessor did not exactly enjoy a long happy retirement.
So, Servius breaks the constitution because he judges he could not get what he wants through the Senate. Well, that makes everything just fine, doesn't it? Of course, laws should be broken if they stop you getting what you want!
As for Servius being the plaything of the Senate, I have studied the records and I say this: we have never had a Consul more aloof from the House, less solicitous of its views, less eager to communicate his true intentions and less collegiate. The idea that the man was ever once beholden to us is a joke.
And at the last we have this - "if Servius is threatened, there will be war". Not content with trashing the constitution, he now threatens us with treason and civil war. Any Senator not convinced by this display of the necessity of impeachment should leave now and go help Servius prepare his march on Rome.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucjan
Mark my words senators, if Servius is threatened, there will be war. There will be war, and the republic....will fall.
TREASON!
*Cnaeus Caprarius stands, unsheathing a dagger.*
This plebian proclaims the death of the Republic in this sacred forum!
*Cnaeus rushes forward and stabs the clerk in the stomach. Once, twice, three times. The man crumples to the ground in a heap. Cnaeus spits on the corpse.*
Senators, look at the filth that Servius brings before us. He sends a clerk to threaten not only the Senate, but the entire Republic! I will not stand for this, Rome will not stand for this! I demand that Servius be immediately brought before this body for impeachment, to be followed by an immediate trial on the charge of treason. All who threaten the Republic must be dealt with swiftly and without mercy!
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:
And at the last we have this - "if Servius is threatened, there will be war". Not content with trashing the constitution, he now threatens us with treason and civil war. Any Senator not convinced by this display of the necessity of impeachment should leave now and go help Servius prepare his march on Rome.
I do not think this is a threat Numerius. Rather, it would be the natural reaction of a cornered animal that knows it must fight or die. Such is the choice that too many of you are presenting Servius. As for marching on Rome, that would be little more than a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Wait till the Consulship of Servius Aemilius is over before such rash actions, I beg the house.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
*catches his breath after Cnaeus Caprarius' actions*
Senators, I must ask for calm in this situation. Do we now begin to slay everyone who speaks a word we disagree with? If so, then all civility is gone from this house, and woe comes to us all!
Blood on the Senate floor means ten thousand times as much elsewhere.
*shakes his head slowly*
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
(OOC - Just a note, that was not a clerk of Servius, just a random clerk, who spoke as he were a respected member of the senate, "we", "that man", never referring to Servius as anything but another member of the senate.
Also, ironic reaction on Cnaeus's part. Especially right after such an action was used as the excuse to go after Servius himself.)
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Order! Order! I will have order in this House!
The clerks, or what is left of them, have drawn up a list of the emergency motions and their seconders.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...34&postcount=1
The deadline for other motions or for seconders is noon tomorrow (UK time). There will then be a 24 hour period of voting.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
I have been informed that the recently deceased clerk was not one of Servius' minions. While I remain convinced that he was working for the Consul in some form, without formal evidence to that extent, my comments during the event about Servius himself were unjustified. For them, I apologize.
I have no regret for my actions though. That man publicly threatened the destruction of the Republic if we did not bow to Servius' will. That was blatant treason conducted openly before the entire body of the Senate. There was disputing the meaning of the words he used, we all heard it. In one statement he conducted his own trial and pronounced his own sentence. I feel no shame for executing a plebian traitor to the Republic who convicted himself with his own tongue. If I am at fault for my actions, then I accept the consequences of them and will bear any mark made against my person or name with pride. Indeed, I would do the same again if another pleb committed treason against Rome.
Let no man say that Cnaeus Caprarius stood by and talked while treason was being committed before his very eyes.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
I do support the action of Cnaeus Caprarius. May every traitor meet a similar fate. In light of that, I second Emergency Motion 6. I would, however, appreciate it if Senator Caprarius, or anyone else, didn't bring concealed daggers into this house. Prominently displayed weapons I have no issue with.
Could somebody remove this body? And please, please make an effort to clean the floor well this time.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
(OOC: I can’t see the Emergency session post apart from following the link on the above post. When will the votes open?)
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: With voting about to begin in one hour, I am seconding motions 4 and 6 - not necessarily because I support them, but because I believe they are worth putting to a vote.
I am also withdrawing motion 1, in the light of the treasonous threats recently communicated to this House.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Well Senators,
A sorry time indeed this is, and a sorry body of men stand before me. Are you SO ready to condemn one of our Greatest Consuls for this one act?
Certainly it was unconstitutional, but your fears that Servius wishes greater power for himself….where does that thought come from??
I consider myself a close, personal friend of the Consul and yet I have never seen such lofty ambitions in him. He has always fought for what he thought was in the best interests of the Republic and certainly NOT himself. Had he considered his own well being or his own glory would he had entered Afrika with merely a Praetorian Legion?
It does not sound like the act of someone who puts himself before the Republics wishes does it?
War has changed my friend Servius, perhaps for the worse, but he is still a good man, a good friend, a consummate commander and a great leader. From my point of view it merely appears that the Senate wishes nothing more than to rid themselves of Servius, regardless of legality. Do you truly hate one who has given Rome such glory with such vigour?
If the Senate proceeds with these, clearly self-centred, actions I will be left with no option than to leave the Senate and return to my own Legion in the East.
I also ask the other Senators with legions in Asia-Minor to follow me back there. We were given our opportunity in Asia-Minor by Servius and I ask for their loyalty and support at this time to vote against these Motions that are put before us now.
I tell them that the Consuls reign is nearly at an end and appeal to them to allow him to finish his tenure. THEN, we should judge him when his works are completed, not now, when these conspirators wish it, but when the Consul is no longer a Consul.
I also uphold the Consuls right for self-preservation and again ask the Senators of the Eastern Legions to support me in this matter and utterly REJECT emergency Motion #6.
Should such a motion be passed I would have to commit myself and any who would follow me willingly to protect the life of the one I call a friend, in anyway possible and against ANY who would do his life harm.
Currently, I see no place for me in “this” Senate…..and I await the results of the voting in my villa here in Roma. Then I will either return to a Senate that has retained its SANITY….or I will be found with my Legion in Asia-Minor.
…I bid you all good DAY!
*Manius, turns abruptly and storms out of the Senate building followed by his Legion Centurion and Banner*
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
*A very meek looking, stooped man rises from his seat behind where Manius and his entourage were sitting. Dressed very plainly, he bows to the Senate*
Erm….well, it would appear that I am left behind. I envisage that I am to ensure my masters own votes are not mis-represented nor his expressions. Erm….let me….erm….re-assure the Senate I suppose, that my master wishes only to defend the life and honour of his friend the Consul and that his actions will be entirely dependant upon what the Senate decides when its votes are cast.
I guess it’s a matter of “attack the Consul verbally…fine, attack him physically…that’s another matter”.
*the man smiles and, with great difficulty, sits down again. Perhaps you recognise him slightly…..the eyes seem to remind you of someone, someone who was very prominent a good number of years ago but you haven’t seen for a good long while, a judge perhaps?*
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Senators, I am shock. I am at a loss for words.
A clerk is murdered in this august house and no-one bats an eyelid or complains - except about the mess. Apparantly its OK to murder someone based purely upon the accusation of treason! Perhaps, Cnaeus Caprarius, I might accuse you of treason and stab you to death in full view of the house? Evidence, a trial, clearly these are things that opponents of Servius Aemilius do not need, mere accusation is enough!
Senators, look at yourselves, look at what you have become. It seems in your headlong pursuit of obedience to the constitution and the rule of law, you have decided that you yourselves are above the constitution and the rule of law. This poor clerk is evidence of that. But better that a thousand innocent men should die than one guilty man go free, eh Cnaeus?
And what about the rest of you Senators? You are all only a hearbeat away from death at the hands of the likes of Cnaeus, murdered merely for the suspicion of treason. Or in the case of this unfortunate, unknown clerk, murdered on account of a misunderstanding!!
And you Numerius, you should know better. No man in this house has suffered more unfair brickbats and critcism than you. Blamed for the wars with Seleucia and Ptolomy. Blamed for the deaths of not one, but two consuls! Reviled by Senators who were jealous and suspicious of your success, bravery and fame at such an early age. Numerius my friend, it could have so easily been you standing before a vengeful Senate - and may yet still be one day. Ruminate on this, I beg you.
Lastly Senators, may I remind you, again, for the umpteenth time. You sit and you repeatedly claim to be upholding the constitution, yet...
*Oppius draws a deep breath before screaming at the top of his lungs*
UNDER THE CONSTITUTION SERVIUS CANNOT BE IMPEACHED AS LONG AS HE HOLDS HIS IMPERIUM!!!!!!!
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
It seems that our colleague Oppius Aemilius is somewhat confused. The constitution specifically allows for the impeachment of a sitting Consul. The full text of the provisions regarding impeachment are
Quote:
4) Senate members can propose motions that are binding setting out objectives for a Consuls reign. The Consul may ignore this motions at their peril (risk of censure/impeachment). All motions require a proposer and two seconders.
6) The Senate may choose to reward Consuls by awarding them “Triumphs” or they may choose to censure them by Impeachment. Either vote requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate (influence weighted). Motions of thanks and censure require simple majorities.
Servius Aemilius is fully subject to the motion of Impeachment by this body. Perhaps you are confused with the fictitious Roman Republic which I have heard discussed of in the brothels. It seems that in that imaginary world, Consuls were immune to prosecution for the duration of their terms. Perhaps Oppius needs to be reminded that we live in the REAL world, and not some make believe fantasy in which Consuls are immune from impeachment during the entirety of their terms.
Furthermore, it seems that Oppius has some cotton I his ears. He claims that the plebian clerk might actually have been innocent of treason. Senator, did you not hear it from his own mouth when he said, and I quote, \"if Servius is threatened, there will be war. There will be war, and the republic....will fall.\" Perhaps I am too simple in my thinking to understand how this could possibly be considered an innocent statement, free from threats against the very foundations of Roman civilization? Oppius, please enlighten us as to how this man could possibly have been innocent of treason. This was no misunderstanding. He spoke blatant treason before the Senate and I responded as all Senators should in such a situation.
As for disposing of Senators in a similar matter, I assure you that I would never slay an unarmed patrician in such a manner, much less a Senator. You have my word that if you speak open treason in this forum, Oppius, I will give you a blade and a fair opportunity to defend yourself before I gut you.
You shame yourself by expecting Numerius Aureolus to do anything other than uphold the laws of the Republic. Do you forget that he is the one man here today who has actively defied the will of a sitting Consul in order to uphold the laws of the Republic? When commanded to exterminate the city of Debeltos by Consul Publius Pansa, an act that would have violated the laws of the Republic, he defied that order at the risk to his own career and reputation. In thanks for this act of utmost loyalty to the Republic, he was threatened, accused, and vilified in this forum by men who were jealous of his abilities in politics and war. Yet throughout all of it, he remained steadfast in support of the laws of the Republic, no matter the cost to himself. To expect Numerius Aureolus to do anything other than to uphold the law to the letter is to expect the Sun to run backwards across the sky. The law is clear in this matter. Servius has declared war without consulting the Senate. He is in violation of Republican law and must be held responsible for his actions. Numerius is an example for a true Roman of the old style, he obeys the laws, unlike your patron.
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
*The old man stands slowly*
- clears his throat –
So, Senators, it appears that I stand as a Clerk, before a room full of men who are more than willing to plunge a dagger into my heart at the barest hint of dissent towards them!
Senator Cnaeus Caprarius stood before us just now and LEGALISED murder!!
….Oh, I’m sorry, it was a lowly clerk….obviously not as High borne or as important as you ‘all-so-mighty’ Senators…..thus are the plebians, who, shall I remind the Senate are the reason you are in office and are the people you are supposed to be representing….are their lives worth so little to the Senate that they will countenance open murder without any form of trial…
..and all because of one mans view or opinion?
I am representing my own master and am not as stupid as that poor soul, I will speak of only what I know of. No “treason” will pass my lips. Though, perhaps a cautious eye to those of you sitting behind me would be in order.
No, what I say now is fact and thus cannot be treason.
The Senate plan to put forth mandates that cause our current Consul to be hunted down like a common thief, and for what? For actions that have caused the loss of less than 100 Romans.
I recall a trial, a good few years hence now, when a Commanders actions led to the destruction of his entire Legion AND the loss of their Eagle standard. The resulting war cost many lives, Roman and Barbarian, and yet……and yet, Senators, THAT man was put on formal trial and had his fair cast of the die.
Even he was not treated such……I’m afraid that age gets to me and I do not recall his name or if he even lives still…..
*the clerk trails off slightly before regaining composure*
Nay Senators! If we, the plebians, are to believe what Senator Cnaeus has just said then isn’t the Republic already dead? Has the Senate herself become so powerful and so embroiled in her own gain that they have forgotten whom they are here to represent and protect?
I will arrange for this mans collection and his internment as is custom. His family will receive monies so they will not want and employ in my masters household so they will not be homeless due to this murderous act.
*the old man moves left slightly and tap his cane upon the marble floor. Two legionaries move to the senate floor and lift the corpse away….both bare the insignia of the 3rd – Manius’s legion.*
You, see Senators, I am not without defences. Even though I stand before you “naked” I am protected from your excesses.
Now, I ask you again Senators. Condemn not our Consul for such a trifle, but I will support those who Condemn those such as Senator Cnaeus who call for allowing murder on such tenuous grounds.
Yes, perhaps the Consul has breached one of the Senate laws but hasn’t the Senate now deemed it acceptable to break laws on a whim?
Was not a Censure not a better idea against the Consul? Allow him to complete his leadership and then, perhaps, the next Consul would reprimand Servius by placing him as a governor in some backward place…but no….you Senators would have none of that and now, with the breaking of such a base law as killing an innocent, the Senate could well plunge us into an internal war.
I do not speak treason, for such things are something that I, my master and certainly the Consul do NOT wish for.
But the Consul is permitted as a citizen of Roma to defend himself against murderers, isn’t he?
Are not the plebians permitted to have a defender against murderers?
Also, consider this gentlemen of the Senate, perhaps it is the Senate that is out of order here, far more than the Consul is and ever will be?
*the old man hobbles back to the benches and sits down. Behind him stand the two grizzled veteran legionaries…apparently unarmed but still wearing armour*
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The gentlemen who has just spoken makes some interesting procedural points, although I am confess I thought the Senate was a place for Senators to speak - not any clerk who happens to stroll in off the street. Harrumph!
I am, however, particularly impressed with his point about law and due process before enacting a punishment. Our constitution allows for impeachment - the involuntary removal from office of the Consul - and it seems entirely appropriate for this to be decided by a super-majority of the Senate.
But for the Senate to add on to such impeachment votes specific punishments - including the loss of Consul's life itself - may be to go too far. Natural justice dictates that a formal trial, rather than a debate, is required before imposing such punishments. I will not retroactively rule on this and so I will let the current emergency motions pass or fail as they are.
However, in the future, impeachment will entail (a) the removal of the Consul from office; and (b) his arraignment on trial for whatever offence has led to the impeachment. Impeachment will still require a supermajority of two thirds.
Under these future arrangements, were the Consul to be impeached, he would be prosecuted in a special court of law - much as was done with Publius Laevinus. However, such a trial would be too important to be decided by a mere judge - casts a condescending look at the aged "clerk". Rather the verdict and the punishment would be decided by a simple majority of the Senate. If the Consul were to be found innocent, he would be reinstated in office.
I repeat these arrangements will be inaugurated for any future impeachment motions. The existing ones can stand as they are.
Oh, and one other matter - recent events have led me to install guards inside the Senate. Any person drawing weapons here will find themselves swiftly intercepted and any violence they might wish to enact will not be permitted to stand. No more blood will be spilled in this place. (sotto voce:) It is hard enough finding good clerks as it is, without having to start offering them danger money...
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
(Appius Barbatus)
Though I seconded Motion 5, the actions of Cnaeus Caprarius have made me realise that passionate hatred can afflict both sides in this conflict. With both sides bloodied, it becomes far more difficult to feel strongly either way.
Therefore, I have relinquished my will to punish Consul Aemilius. I urge others who have been as shocked as I was by Senator Caprarius' slaying to reconcile themselves to the fact that a point has been passed in the Republic to which we now cannot return.
*sighs deeply, looking a bit older than his youth should allow*
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Re: The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations IV
Cnaeus, you seem unable to tell the difference between a threat, and a statement about the future. Our deceased clerk was unable to make the former because he wasn't speaking for Servius, and neither do I. He recognised, as I do, that this house is backing Servius into a corner from which his only way out would be to fight his way out. This is not treason, merely an opinion, a warning about what may happen. If I say to you "be careful on the road to Capua, there are brigands attacking travellers", it does not mean I am directing the actions of those criminals! Our clerk did not claim to support Servius at any point, merely offered his own (rather impertinent) opinion on the situation.
Tell me Cnaeus, who made you judge, jury, prosecution and executioner?
But never mind, you shall learn all about the workings of our criminal courts soon enough... *glares menancingly at Cnaeus Caprarius*