Schoolgirl arrested for refusing to study with non-English pupils

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Ser Cleg
It probably has more to do with the small size of the ethnic groupings in the school .
It makes sense at the start of the school year to place the 3 recent immigrants who cannot speak English in the same class as the 2 who could speak both English and Urdu , until such time as the extra tuition becomes effective .

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Personally, I think it is rather counterproductive to have these 5 students together in one project group.
Of course it makes them feel more "at home" which they sure like (and at their age I probably would have liked it as well), but how are they supposed to integrate if the school even seems to support "seggregation"?
Wouldn't at least splitting them up into two groups so that they have to mingle with the "natives" be a better solution for getting them to know the language and other kids?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Frag :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
See it does help , that way I wouldn't have had to write .....So I take it you didn't read the original article then :yes: and then you wouldn't have quoted it and still not read it , then actually read it and had to say:oops:

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Well even if I screwed up there it isn't really relevant for the article, which is about a girl being arrested because she didn't want to work with people that didn't speak her language.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Personally, I think it is rather counterproductive to have these 5 students together in one project group.
Of course it makes them feel more "at home" which they sure like (and at their age I probably would have liked it as well), but how are they supposed to integrate if the school even seems to support "seggregation"?
Wouldn't at least splitting them up into two groups so that they have to mingle with the "natives" be a better solution for getting them to know the language and other kids?

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I think it makes sense, at least until they spoke basic english, this is because as individuals they are more likely to be singled out, with no group protection etc. and would probably work better as a group than seperated anyway
(I agree that 2 groups is a better idea) :2thumbsup:

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Meh, she was 'placed in a cell' for 3.5 hours. Rather similar. The question stands then, why put her in a cell a week after the incident? Is that what they normally do for teens throwing hissy fits?

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firstly it may be similar , but it is not the same, and it wasn't a "cell" , it was the youth suite , definately a long way away from your comment about her being thrown in jail . keeping her for 3.5 hours would be normal while they completed the paperwork . All of which is a long way off the mothers earlier claims that they jailed her poor daughter for 6 hours .

But yes it is normal when they have teens at the station being processed in relation to an alledged incident .

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Well even if I screwed up there it isn't really relevant for the article, which is about a girl being arrested because she didn't want to work with people that didn't speak her language.

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Nope the article is about a girl being arrested over alledged verbal racial abuse .

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Personally, I think it is rather counterproductive to have these 5 students together in one project group.

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Yep possibly

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Of course it makes them feel more "at home" which they sure like (and at their age I probably would have liked it as well)

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Yep and there you come to the real issue this chav had , she was annoyed that the class had been split into groups in her absence and she got stroppy because she missed the opertunity to be sitting with her mates .

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Wouldn't at least splitting them up into two groups so that they have to mingle with the "natives" be a better solution for getting them to know the language and other kids?

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Yep , but it appears part of the problem is that an example is shown that at least one of the other kids didn't want to mingle withthe non-natives .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yep and there you come to the real issue this chav had , she was annoyed that the class had been split into groups in her absence and she got stroppy because she missed the opertunity to be sitting with her mates .

[...]

Yep , but it appears part of the problem is that an example is shown that at least one of the other kids didn't want to mingle withthe non-natives

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No argument from me here - the behaviour of the girl was poor. She didn't like being put together with them? Well, sometimes you just have to accept that things are not always going your way and have to act maturely.

However, I see many failures in this case and one should not be used to excuse the other (no matter which one we are talking about). Integration requires all involved parties to be willing to leave the comfort zone.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

firstly it may be similar , but it is not the same, and it wasn't a "cell" , it was the youth suite , definately a long way away from your comment about her being thrown in jail . keeping her for 3.5 hours would be normal while they completed the paperwork . All of which is a long way off the mothers earlier claims that they jailed her poor daughter for 6 hours .

But yes it is normal when they have teens at the station being processed in relation to an alledged incident.

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So...you're saying that it is normal for the police to take a girl to the station, place her in a cell for 3 and a half hours, for a bit of alledged racial abuse a week before? Can you get arrested for being a racist? If it takes a week for the police to process the complaint why does it take another 3 and a half hours of her waiting in a cell to fill out more paperwork? What does that accomplish?

Why in the world does it take the police a week to write a report on some girl having a hissy fit in school- why would they even bother in the first place?- and then actually go an arrest her and take several more hours to do basically nothing more?

Police involvement in this at all seems ridiculous.

Crazed Rabbit

Well Rabbit , that is the process of the law , it is normal .
Yep police involvement does seem ridiculous , however the school is under the special measures program, that program is implemented when a school deteriorates so badly either education wise or in relation to student behaviour (though the 2 are often hand in hand) .
If the school cannot be turned around then it is shut down .
The government program deals with every negative aspect that affects the performance of the school and attempts to fix them , behavioral problems are one of those aspects , it seems that they really put the boot in in dealing with one problem .
I wonder how many other times they have had to do it , without of course the parents going crying to the Daily Mail about the damn immigrants and their darling chav being such a poor victim .

Actually 1 week to deal with a complaint of this nature (i.e. non violent, non urgent, no property to recover, no chance of the suspect absconding) is really fast for the police. It is another reason why most schools don't involve the police; discipline is much more effective when sanctions are administered immediately. The police don't like schools investigating or dealing with matters that they have become involved with because it taints witness evidence, so once the police are involved schools tend to back off. It often takes months for complaints to be resolved. The police also have no qualms about putting youngsters in cells (which is normal after someone is arrested) believing it might scare them back on to the straight and narrow.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

The police also have no qualms about putting youngsters in cells (which is normal after someone is arrested) believing it might scare them back on to the straight and narrow.

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Police: Now, now there little fella. You just think about this time when you feel like speaking your mind.
Youngster: This cell sux.
Police: What I tell you?
Youngster: I hate you. You're bald.
Police: Just wait til' you're eighteen !

EDIT: Apologies.

What cute racisms we have around here. I feel very much victimized now. Need welfare money. HULK NEED WELFARE MONEY!

...ahem.

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

The other language people go to school to learn how to speak english , in maybe 6 months time they will most probably be able to speak basic english fairly well - yes, its inconvenient in the short term (everyone needs to learn sign language) but in the long term communication is okay, these people can't go to seperate schools for basic english learning before mainstream schools because that would cost the government far too much.
I do agree that in English schools enlgish should be spoken in lessons.

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Precisely. That's how I learned English.

Of course, most people got to take the ELL (English Language Learners -- something of an American public school system's attempt to integrate pure immigrants; the people in there ranged from Eastern Europeans to various Asian nationalities) classes to augment their English skills alongside the regular but I think they judged me to be well-spoken enough to survive on my own, so they threw me into the real world right off the bat.

Two years forward, and I'm far superior as a writer than most people my age. Oh, and a few verbal English (OMG!) debate tournament trophies to boot. I guess we nasty job-stealin' immigrants can learn after all! :beam:

Guess that makes a dent in "I ain't gonna study with these ... and Chinamen 'cause they ain't white an' can't speak no English" complaint now, doesn't it?

Now, for the topic: I'd like to know the facts of the events before making judgement, sorry. Though, admittedly, the involvement of the police sounds far too severe for a juvenile problem. A mere racist outburst usually doesn't need police involvement.

By the way...

Ser Clegane: Not that I disagree with you or anything like that, since I don't know how schools in the United Kingdom works; but, in the US, public schools often have a permanently-placed police officer in campus all the time and there's really nothing particularly downtrodden about it. Unless there's a problem, they usually just stay there and talk to kids -- more like an extra dean except they don't really care if you break all those crappy school rules like deans do.

Can I just ask how the Asian children knew what the teacher was saying anyway? Did they have a translator or something?

I don't understand these people. Why would somebody be arrested for asking to change groups. People do that all the time in my science classes and I just say that they can/can't depending on the situation. If a girl was to say that to me I would allow her to move groups because the children in question would be interfering with her education. That is not racist and neither is referring to students as "blacks". It is the common ethnic name for their culture group and (although it is not very nice) is usually tolerated by African/Asian students in a school. They usually don't complain as long as an insult is not placed in the same sentence as the word "black".

Political correctness is out of control!

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Police involvement in this at all seems ridiculous.

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In my opinion it is ridiculous. Who needs the police in an issue that could just as easily be solved in school.

One of the 5 asian children could speak english i think, thus they were translating it to the other children, once again seems insane to me, either learn our language or get out of our country basically.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

One of the 5 asian children could speak english i think, thus they were translating it to the other children, once again seems insane to me, either learn our language or get out of our country basically.

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Excuse me? How do you learn the language?

Oh right. There's something called Total Immersion, often touted as the best and most natural way to learn the language. For some reason, I think letting us dirty immigrating mongrels mingle with the inherently superior natives is precisely that...

Though, if the school really has that small number of minorities and they are concentrated in such a manner, it speaks of the school's quality, really.

On the topic of learning a language at school, when pater and his wife moved to Greece they didn't go to school to learn Greek they just picked it up from the locals. They now speak and write Greek fluently. It took them a year or so but it does have the advantage of them understanding the signage and helps immensely when they have had the occasion to deal with the local Notary. (Who can speak English but refuses to do so for official business)

:whip:

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

One of the 5 asian children could speak english i think, thus they were translating it to the other children, once again seems insane to me, either learn our language or get out of our country basically.

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The Asian that could speak English must have been disrupting the class by talking at the same time as the teacher to translate for the non-English speakers? I think that it would also be just a little bit of a distraction for the rest of the class? Could I also ask how the Asians that could not speak English do their work. Either the teacher can speak and read their language or they don't get their work marked. They should either go to a school that has teachers that speak their native language or the school should get their own translator in for the individuals or they should go home, learn English and then come back. The second option would be the most sensible solution for the situation.

No wonder the place gets such low GCSE grades with students such as those in question not having suitable support.

When Sebastian and Isobel decide to move from London to a house in the south of France and take their darling little brats with them, what language do you think is used at the local school?

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Ser Clegane: Not that I disagree with you or anything like that, since I don't know how schools in the United Kingdom works; but, in the US, public schools often have a permanently-placed police officer in campus all the time and there's really nothing particularly downtrodden about it. Unless there's a problem, they usually just stay there and talk to kids -- more like an extra dean except they don't really care if you break all those crappy school rules like deans do.

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I assume that your statement is actually not directed at me, as I did not touch the issue of the police officer ~;)

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Excuse me? How do you learn the language?

Oh right. There's something called Total Immersion, often touted as the best and most natural way to learn the language. For some reason, I think letting us dirty immigrating mongrels mingle with the inherently superior natives is precisely that...

Though, if the school really has that small number of minorities and they are concentrated in such a manner, it speaks of the school's quality, really.

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In a classroom with other people who don't know the language, seems the best way to me, i mean learning the language for another country is just good manners i would do it if i was going on holiday to another country, fair enough not the whole language but at least some!

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

In a classroom with other people who don't know the language, seems the best way to me, i mean learning the language for another country is just good manners i would do it if i was going on holiday to another country, fair enough not the whole language but at least some!

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So what languages have you mastered so far ?

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Originally Posted by Mithrandir

So what languages have you mastered so far ?

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In all likelyhood the language of the country he lives in!

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I don't understand these people. Why would somebody be arrested for asking to change groups. People do that all the time in my science classes and I just say that they can/can't depending on the situation.

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So asking to change groups is normal then Avlvs, it isn' t something that the teacher school or police feels it is neccasry to take disciplinary measures over .
So doesn't that mean that this cannot have been over simply asking to change groups , it was to do with alledged verbal racial abuse instead .

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either learn our language or get out of our country basically.

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Now that is interesting , isn't it your view that anyone who isn't "white" and christian shouldn't be in your country anyway regardless of if they speak the language or not .
Or was that someone else called ragnar who espoused those views ?

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

I assume that your statement is actually not directed at me, as I did not touch the issue of the police officer ~;)

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*shoots himself in the head.*

My apologies. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Now that is interesting , isn't it your view that anyone who isn't "white" and christian shouldn't be in your country anyway regardless of if they speak the language or not .
Or was that someone else called ragnar who espoused those views ?

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Firstly i am a atheist, secondly i don't hate all people of colored race, i just see the British to be superior as i am British, the same could be said about a German man thinking that Germans are better than any other nation, it called being nationalistic which isn't exactly a bad thing in my opinion, but i forgot at the org if it ain't liberal then it ain't right.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Firstly i am a atheist, secondly i don't hate all people of colored race, i just see the British to be superior as i am British, the same could be said about a German man thinking that Germans are better than any other nation, it called being nationalistic which isn't exactly a bad thing in my opinion, but i forgot at the org if it ain't liberal then it ain't right.

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So someone who is 3rd-generation immigrant, speaks only English, and is going to go and do some high-class degree, is still worse than some idiot stealing a car, but who is 100% pure in-bred Anglo-Saxon?

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Firstly i am a atheist, secondly i don't hate all people of colored race, i just see the British to be superior as i am British, the same could be said about a German man thinking that Germans are better than any other nation, it called being nationalistic which isn't exactly a bad thing in my opinion, but i forgot at the org if it ain't liberal then it ain't right.

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Oh my word!

Special Measures is basically the school ha failed, the head teacher has been removed and everyone is under extreme stress that they might get sacked.

So, better to report every incident however minor it may be, so that the buck stops on someone else's desk. Teacher tells the new headteacher, who is acutely aware that their predecessor has just been sacked. So they tell the police. They are aware than although this is utter bull, to ignore it could have nasty consequences, especially if the headteacher is later in a position where they have to squeal that they did tell the police, but nothing was done. Far harder to ignore a governmental taskforce than a mere member of the public.

Hence, step by step the insane gets done, with every step a self-serving back protecting exercise.

I should know - at the whiff of trouble health professionals kick bad new upstairs as fast as they can.

~:smoking:

Its sad but true, in the majority of proffessions people are afraid to take responsibility or use their inititive in case of legal fallback, its terrible - and causes things to work much less efficiently :shame:

A recent case: Patient X was refusing treatment that a consultant felt was required. It eventually wasn't given as the legal department didn't agree.

Yup, there's a yellow streak right to the top. In this case I had to explain the same things to the patient repeatedly (I was told to do so) to ensure that social services had witnessed it! All in in all her treatment took an admission probably twice as long, and in terms of man hours to treat several multiples.

If the government would give doctors back the power to make decisions and make human error not a career ending mistake it would help enormously.

Generally, no doctor will get sued for ordering too many tests, or plugging away at a dying patient regardless of cost or pain. But dare to make a decision based on 40 years of practice, and you could be taken to the cleaners.

So we over prescribe, treat test results even if the patient looks fine and in the other extreme let people die following a protocol rather than think, as that might be viewed as unsound practice.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Firstly i am a atheist, secondly i don't hate all people of colored race, i just see the British to be superior as i am British, the same could be said about a German man thinking that Germans are better than any other nation, it called being nationalistic which isn't exactly a bad thing in my opinion, but i forgot at the org if it ain't liberal then it ain't right.

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good god. Lol find that Funny, and you want me to say Amercians are better the British since I'm A Amercian? :laugh4: :inquisitive:

:no:

Yeah, my mother's worked for the NHS for 20 years, and she never stops complaining about its inefficiency etc. (especially with the new budget cuts this year)

I don't blame the government though, i think its just the way society is now (following america - which i think is even worse) 0 they could try to give more legal protection to doctos, but it would be a very unpopular move. :furious3:

:2thumbsup: