-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by soibean
I had heard of the soap and road systems of the celts but I didnt know how extensive it was, or even the celtic people were, throughout briton and hibernia.
Well, there you have it. Historians/archeologists have discovered a long while ago that the fact that most records are Roman/Hellenic tend to not tell the whole story and/or tell the whole truth. Reporting/registering events in ancient times had a high degree of political agenda in it - which is to say, in many ways, bias. Remember the phrase "The adopted morality is the winner's morality."
In regard to specifics, the Celtic road system was in widespread use. It might have been based upon earlier work by prior local inhabitants in many cases. Remains of it have been found in far places as Ireland, Belgium and western France. It consisted of wide (up to 4m) and thick (up to 30cm) plates of weather resistant wood over a foundation of compacted earth and stone, IIRC. It was clearly used by horse pulled cars.
Celtic civilizational advancements can be seen in other places that correspond better to the Roman/Hellenic-centric way of thinking about "civilized" achievements. Places like the vast city/fortress (oppida) of Bibracte or Gergovia. In many of these towns and urban centers real industrial and trade emplacements flourished and were part of a vast network of productive industry that served the needs of all of Gaul and beyond. Rich jewlery, raw metals, weapons, armours, etc...
But imports were just as important as exports. Some very expensive imports were also made. I saw one that was an enormous amphora-shaped container of wine made entirelly in bronze and richly adorned that was specifically ordered to an italian artisan for a high nobility Celtic woman - probably someone very important in Gallic society. It was 1,70m tall and about 1 meter wide!!
But part of this widespread trade can be seen in a funny example:
Do you know what nation was the main foreign importer of wine from Italy during the time period of EB until GJ Caeser's conquest of Gaul?
No? Well, Gaul was.
Do you know the reason the Romans had to keep increasing their wine production to new levels?
No? Well, once again Gaul was. They really liked wine and the italic peninsula was, has is today, a great producer of wine.
And do you know why the Romans wanted to sell to the "barbarians" and why later Caeser exploited a civil war to conquer Gaul?
No? Well, paraphrasing Terry Jones, because the Gauls were "loaded" with gold.
Yes, part of the widespread industry I've talked about consisted on the exploration of over 100 mines of several metals, with many of those being mines of gold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soibean
I wasn't aware of the Tartessanian Kingom in Iberia, I was just guessing that they would have been influenced by the Carthiginians by this point in the game since Carthage owns southern Spain. I didn't know how early Spain's expertise in weaponry went. I knew that they were quite respectable in the middle ages but apart from that... nada.
Well, not really since the Tartesanian kingdom is older than the Carthaginian establishments in the peninsula and they ocuppy slightly different regions. In fact, it is the rise of carthaginian power and its influence on trade, as well as its establishment of alliances in the peninsula that really hurts the rule and influence of this kingdom among it's neighbours. It's decay starts preciselly because of Carthage's presence. Before, they were the big boss in the area, but after that the shift of power moves to the cartaghinian controled areas.
If you can read more here:
Tartessos
If you can read spanish (castillian) you can find more info here (if you can't just check some of the pictures):
LA ESPAÑA PROTOHISTÓRICA
TARTESSOS: SUS FUENTES
TARTESSOS
El enigma histórico de Tartessos, la mítica ciudad-imperio de la Edad Antigua.
TARTESSOS
Tartessos
Quote:
Originally Posted by soibean
My definition of civilized... I was actually asking what the EB people meant by this and threw out those examples. I consider being civilized as having a legit educational system, health system, transportation system ( same examples as earlier because I know EB has buildings that focus on these areas). Apart from these, caring for and respecting one's people. I dont feel that anything outside of my own culture is uncivilized - which is how many ancient cultures felt so Im trying to talk in their mindset.
I really dont think that helped at all but... yea. I find that a tough question to ask.
Indeed it is.
As you can see from what I mentioned above, in regard to tranportation, trade and industry I think we can say the Celts were fairly advanced and surprisingly "civilized" for us Roman-Hellenic cultural heirs.
As for Iberians, no traces of an advanced transportation system were found but their art and metal industry was very advanced. They traded a lot but it was probably more limited in terms of sheer volume due to the aparent lack of a large scale transport system.
What can we say of the Celts and Iberians in regard to the other civilizational terms you mentioned above?
The Celtic educational system was advanced but very different from the Roman/Hellenic one. They relied on oral tradition because they despised the written word - they thought it was as an impedement to a good developement of the tought process and the accumulation of memories. Although for trade and storage records they also wrote. They rellied in the druidic system that was linked to their religion and beliefs. The druidic system was extremelly demanding and therefore only exceptional individuals would became druids. And they took 15 years to achieve this status. The druids usually specialized in certain specific areas of knowledge. Some were the historians of the tribe, others were politicians, others philosophers and wisemen, etc... But the knowledge was not exactly restricted and people in several positions were always advised by these wise men.
IIRC, in Iberia it was different from tribe to tribe but rellied also in wisemen like the celtic druids, although knowledge was not specifically linked to a religious organization and their role, in comparation to druids, was different. They were specialized and there was not a unique central pool of knowledge. Populations were also very supersticious and all of this knowledge/religious habits/education varied quite a bit from north to south.
In regard to equality among citizens what can we say about them? Apart from the Etruscans the Italian populations did not respect women like the Celts. In Rome and Hellas they were deemed inferior. In Celtic and Iberian society they were respected. In both societies, although it is more apparent among the Celts, a women could achieve a very high position of status provided she was inteligent, brave and gathered popular consensus. Even in regard to the political arena. What does this say of the "barbaric" Celts and Iberians?
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheexsta
Out of curiosity, though, how are the Iberian names and words devised? Are they based on a modern language that would have been similar to that of the Iberians?
It was a very tough decision the one we had to make. Due to the very sparse remains of the several Iberian languages and the even more sparse remains of the Lusitani one we had to go for a mix of Indo-European Lusitani words and constructions and Proto-Celtic. Sarcasm, Anthony and Ranika can answer this much better than I can since I am no linguist but it was a very, very hard job to achieve. We are, however, happy with the results and hope you like them.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
"Spain: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."
Sorry...
"Iberia: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."
Spain did not exist until the marriage between Fernand of Aragon and Isabel of Castille in 1469.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Sorry...
"Iberia: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."
Spain did not exist until the marriage between Fernand of Aragon and Isabel of Castille in 1469.
Actually that was a quote from Napoleon's time, concerning the historical problems involved in taking the Iberian pennisula by force.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
Actually that was a quote from Napoleon's time, concerning the historical problems involved in taking the Iberian pennisula by force.
Well, then I'm wrong! Sorry... :embarassed:
I thought that was a contemporary Roman quote like the one from GJ Caeser:
"In the west of Hispannia there is a people who does not rule itself, nor does it let itself be ruled by another."
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Finaly IBERIA has a faction I can play! I can now go and play with the faction of my great-grandparents (both mother and father side).
They were all from Galicia Espana! :spain: :yes:
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g...artan/mapa.jpg
:knight:.....:horn:...... :charge:....... :boxing:.....:viking:.....:boxing:
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
They are the foot bodyguards and last ditch elite unit of the Vasci kings in northeastern Iberia. They were hand picked veteran warriors. The Vasci were the inventors of a type of armour that used small scales overlapping high-quality mail. It was extremelly effective as armour but heavy and proibitivelly expensive. So, only the most reliable and closest men to the king were equipped with it.
Later Romans used this invention as a basis to create their Lorica Plumata. Scales grew even smaller and the armour became even more perfected.
The Iverni, descendants of the Vasci - invaders of southern Hibernia (Ireland) - also used this type of armour among their most elite warriors. These men very often became mercenaires fighting for the best paying Hibernian chieftain. They gained legendary status in Ireland and were known as "noble black warriors" due to the colour of their equipement and their martial prowess. In Hibernia this armour was called Ceannlann ("Fish-Scales") as opposed to the more usual and less effective large scale coats called Iobarlann ("Scale-Jacket").
Lanceari, not Lancarii. As is visible they will be less armoured than any other cata, but with a pretty high morale due to the usual fierceness of the Iberians and to their elite status.
Nope.
Hehehe... :grin:
1:So their the general units?
Thanks for the information.
2:Yeah, I've been playing IB for a while now...
3:Awh....
4:Heheheheh..
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
I have a bit of Spanish in me.
My dads side is pure Icelandic since 967, before it was Norwegian.
My Mothers side is half Icelandic, and half Boston, and my American Grandpa is split between Irish and Spanish(or Portugese I'm not sure)
So theres a chance I'm descended from both Vikings,Lustianni, and then the Scotti.
And then the Scotti are related to the the Iberian tribes who..
Man ancestry is confusing...
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
The Scotti aren't even a people really, I hate the way people use the term. Scotti was a derogatory Romano-British word for a collection of Irish tribes, and was eventually used in Latin to describe all Gaels (like the king of Ireland in the middle ages was the Scotorum Imperator). However, it's rather inappropriate to say one descends from the Scotti if for nothing else than it doesn't really imply who you descend from. Not all who were culturally Gaels were of Iberian descent. Many would be Gaelicized Britons and Belgae who inhabitted Ireland and wouldn't have had many Iberian ancestors. Also, the first tribes designated Scotti probably weren't very Iberian. The most Iberian influenced tribes were largely southern, where we find their graves and such in an Iberian manner similar to those in Galicia and Asturia.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
A nice discussion happening here! And it was half on topic. Amazing! Good job guys :D
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
The Scotti aren't even a people really, I hate the way people use the term. Scotti was a derogatory Romano-British word for a collection of Irish tribes, and was eventually used in Latin to describe all Gaels (like the king of Ireland in the middle ages was the Scotorum Imperator). However, it's rather inappropriate to say one descends from the Scotti if for nothing else than it doesn't really imply who you descend from. Not all who were culturally Gaels were of Iberian descent. Many would be Gaelicized Britons and Belgae who inhabitted Ireland and wouldn't have had many Iberian ancestors. Also, the first tribes designated Scotti probably weren't very Iberian. The most Iberian influenced tribes were largely southern, where we find their graves and such in an Iberian manner similar to those in Galicia and Asturia.
So much learning.
I meant anywhere in the Irish Island.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Just a short note to say well done! The Iberian units are fantastic - and its nice to see the Iberian heavy cavalry properly portrayed (as per the depictions on the Liria pottery). I was a tiny bit dissapointed to see the elite Carthaginian-Iberian foot wear scale mail and roman-style helmets, rather than classic Iberian scale-mail, but I can see why you would do that - it means that that unit can encompass the "refitting" in Roman-style gear that Hannibal did with his Spanish veterans.
The Lusitanians will be an exciting faction, and I hope they bring some competition to the Iberian Peninsula.
I assume that the 'rebel' factions like the Tartessians, Edetani and Carpetanians will have these same skins.
Good Job!
Now Hurry Up and release .08!
H.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own. With Qarthadastim and Hellenic influence being really high and the quality of horses found in Lusotann, it is a logical evolution, backed by facts on the ground.
Besides, why would the Roman empire station troops in Hispania province so many hundreds of Kilometers behind its borders? For a vacation?
It is not just plain luck that the first Roman emperor thatwas born outside of Italia, which is also the best Roman emperor in my view. TRAJAN. He was from the iberian peninsula.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Nice preview, makes me want to play as the faction after I finish a Getai campaign.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Woah! Once again, you show why you are beyond any doubt, the best!
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Wow, this is better than M2TW, which had consumed my soul this past week. "EB" has become synonymous with "best thing ever". Now, the only problem is the explosion of the mind that will occur when EB2 comes out for M2.... I mean it's a big problem...... certain death. CERTAIN DEATH!!! :fainting:
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
hallo, much compliment to lusitanian people for this preview, i have a question, will it be another iberian faction, or the lusitanian will be the only iberian faction?
thanks!
ps better than m2tw
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSpartan
Finaly IBERIA has a faction I can play! I can now go and play with the faction of my great-grandparents (both mother and father side).
They were all from Galicia Espana! :spain: :yes:
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g...artan/mapa.jpg
:knight:.....:horn:...... :charge:....... :boxing:.....:viking:.....:boxing:
Huuu... :inquisitive: Sorry to disapoint you, but the Galaecians of this time difered quite a bit from the Lusitani. They were far more influenced by Celtic culture and had a somewhat different look. You will be able to see this when we insert the Galaecian units that are planned.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great
1:So their the general units?
No, because the faction is the Lusitani and these are regionals from another area. Therefore they will be recruitable in 1 province at the highest MIC level and be damn expensive. The Lusitani BG will be horsemen - heavy cavalry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great
Thanks for the information.
No problem. :smiley:
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca
Just a short note to say well done! The Iberian units are fantastic - and its nice to see the Iberian heavy cavalry properly portrayed (as per the depictions on the Liria pottery).
Thanks. :pleased:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca
I was a tiny bit dissapointed to see the elite Carthaginian-Iberian foot wear scale mail and roman-style helmets,
You mean ring or chain mail?!... :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca
rather than classic Iberian scale-mail, but I can see why you would do that - it means that that unit can encompass the "refitting" in Roman-style gear that Hannibal did with his Spanish veterans.
Preciselly. That was our purpose. :yes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca
I assume that the 'rebel' factions like the Tartessians, Edetani and Carpetanians will have these same skins.
The 'rebel' factions will use the Eleutheroi (Independent States) skin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca
Good Job!
Thanks.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own.
Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.
1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.
2)The Lusotan armies were light, fast and had a outstanding ability to spring ambushes in mountainous areas and most of its warfare was based on that. Tell me the usefullness of a heavy cataphract in a rocky mountainous place.
3)The Iberian cataphracts are older than the Roman presence in the peninsula. In fact, it is probable that their creation is contemporary with the first Carthaginian settlements in the Iberian Peninsula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
With Qarthadastim and Hellenic influence being really high and the quality of horses found in Lusotann, it is a logical evolution, backed by facts on the ground.
Except when it was the other way around. It is very likely that, based on several text excerpts and archeological finds, the veil mails that the Dosidataskeli used impressed seriously the Greek colonists that fought them. There are written records of this. Progressivelly, this influence traveled across the mediterranean and was actually adopted by the Seleucids for their highest elite foot units as the in-game Thorakitai Argyraspidai tries to demonstrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
Besides, why would the Roman empire station troops in Hispania province so many hundreds of Kilometers behind its borders? For a vacation?
It is not just plain luck that the first Roman emperor thatwas born outside of Italia, which is also the best Roman emperor in my view. TRAJAN. He was from the iberian peninsula.
"First to be invaded, last to be conquered."
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zalmoxis
Nice preview, makes me want to play as the faction after I finish a Getai campaign.
:smiley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Woah! Once again, you show why you are beyond any doubt, the best!
:smiley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderland
Wow, this is better than M2TW, which had consumed my soul this past week. "EB" has become synonymous with "best thing ever". Now, the only problem is the explosion of the mind that will occur when EB2 comes out for M2.... I mean it's a big problem...... certain death. CERTAIN DEATH!!! :fainting:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
In name of all the guys that worked on the faction and helped build this preview, thanks everyone for your comments. :2thumbsup:
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelics
hallo, much compliment to lusitanian people for this preview, i have a question, will it be another iberian faction, or the lusitanian will be the only iberian faction?
thanks!
It is a replacement. For a competing Iberian faction you'll have to wait for EB2 in the M2TW engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelics
ps better than m2tw
:pleased: :bow:
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own.
Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.
1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.
A small addition:
Roman cataphracts appeared even later in history. The first known Roman cataphract unit is "Ala I Gallorum et Pannoniorum catafracta", from an inscription (CIL 11, 05632 ) metioning it's existence in Hadrianic times (ca. 118 -136 AD), after the first wars with sarmatians on the danube frontier and Trajan's parthian war. One thing that can probably be credited to be a result of carrhae and the first Roman parthian wars is the introduction of horse archers into the Roman army.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
I'll just say that those models/skins/whatever are Da Bomb. :rtwyes: But am I seeing things or is that Iovamann dude armed with fire-hardened wooden spears or something ? Kinda Stone Age, isn't that ? :stunned:
That aside, I recall there being something called Scutarii Incursii mentioned in the .74 DMB with the Thorakitai Argyraspidai entry. Those Dosi... dosi... heavy elite guys whose name I can't stop spelling wouldn't have any relation to that ?
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I'll just say that those models/skins/whatever are Da Bomb. :rtwyes:
Hehehe... :grin: Thanks. :smiley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
But am I seeing things or is that Iovamann dude armed with fire-hardened wooden spears or something ? Kinda Stone Age, isn't that ? :stunned:
Fire-hardned javelins actually. Called sude by the Lusitani. It might sound a bit like stone age equipement but it was really used in this period by the lowest of the Lusitani warriors. And that is what they are: poor shepperds leavied to fight in an emergency. So, they just prepared a few wodden sticks, packed up and went away. My advice in their use is never ever make them fight in hand-to-hand combat except when you're in dire straits. Any other units will just turn them in to grinded meat - provided they don't rout sooner than that. They are good to perform ambushes, throw a few sude into the enemy and run like hell... :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
That aside, I recall there being something called Scutarii Incursii mentioned in the .74 DMB with the Thorakitai Argyraspidai entry. Those Dosi... dosi... heavy elite guys whose name I can't stop spelling wouldn't have any relation to that ?
Dosidataskeli. Yes. They are the exact same. But since we are only using latin names for southern Iberians and these are northern Iberian warriors, we have changed their name to a more adequate language.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Fire hardened wood was still used fairly commonly by some cultures among lower warriors, more particularly among those for who iron was expensive (Germans for example) or not needed in their day-to-day work for a weapon. It's quite appropriate for poor Lusitanian herdsmen, who'd probably not have a clutch of javelins or the like. Fire-hardened javelins would be cheap, quicker to make, and more reasonably part of their war gear than iron-tipped javelins.
Edit; Aymar beat me to it. But I'll add this (in a second edit no less); compare it to the levies of Celts. Celts guaranteed able-bodied adults a spear and often a shield of some sort in every village and farmstead, and some places gave them darts or javelins. They were incredibly rich in the ancient world and had a massive surplus of iron. It was, as such, easy for them to have iron headed weapons for every combatant. The same couldn't be said of many other places, even those with good iron supply, but lacking any guarantee that there would be weapons for everyone.
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.
1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.
2)The Lusotan armies were light, fast and had a outstanding ability to spring ambushes in mountainous areas and most of its warfare was based on that. Tell me the usefullness of a heavy cataphract in a rocky mountainous place.
3)The Iberian cataphracts are older than the Roman presence in the peninsula. In fact, it is probable that their creation is contemporary with the first Carthaginian settlements in the Iberian Peninsula.
Except when it was the other way around. It is very likely that, based on several text excerpts and archeological finds, the veil mails that the Dosidataskeli used impressed seriously the Greek colonists that fought them. There are written records of this. Progressivelly, this influence traveled across the mediterranean and was actually adopted by the Seleucids for their highest elite foot units as the in-game Thorakitai Argyraspidai tries to demonstrate.
"First to be invaded, last to be conquered."
1- Didn't the Romans bought off the Seleukids' Cataphracts prior to Carrae?
2- You got me there, none. You would need open ground.
3- That I didn't know. I always believed that Capaphracts were created at the steppes, however logical their evolution must seem. Of course they could have evolved elsewhere, I just didn't know.
So far as Thorakitai Argyraspidai is concerned, since Dosidataskeli existed before them, it could be more than just possible. And that is half the fun and half the frustration. Using incomplete evidence, we need to speculate on some stuff. On the other hand, we may see certain depictions, but we DON'T KNOW!!!
I guess that is why I love EB. Because we get to do that. Speculate (historically!)
-
Re: EB Preview :: Lusotannan
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
1- Didn't the Romans bought off the Seleukids' Cataphracts prior to Carrae?
I have absolutely read no evidence - quite the contrary - of the Roman army using cataphracts before well in to the empire. Notice that I did say they got "interested" but they did not use them until much later like cunctator said. In regard to the Seleucid catas I have no idea of what the Romans might have done with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
So far as Thorakitai Argyraspidai is concerned, since Dosidataskeli existed before them, it could be more than just possible. And that is half the fun and half the frustration. Using incomplete evidence, we need to speculate on some stuff. On the other hand, we may see certain depictions, but we DON'T KNOW!!!
Well, not entirelly. Urnamma has given me evidence of this. Talk to him about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
I guess that is why I love EB. Because we get to do that. Speculate (historically!)
Less than you might think.
