Uhm, yeah. Peaceful workers, here to earn some money...

On my note: It just seems that a concensus has been reached by most members that illegal immigration is a big issue but the general feeling at the beginning was sorta outrage at the whole issue, and now its sorta loping around illegal immigration. We know it is a problem, and we will no doubt be talking about it for a while. However, there seems to Me to be a general idea about the whole issue and its not really being discussed. Its wavering between something very violent and amnesty, and while that is great, I just don't see a point to the thread.
You know your job, so keep on doing it.


I always thought Mexican was the term. While Latino would encompass that, it seems more broad, including South America and Carribean and said Carribean islands aren't really the tanned, Spanish speaking peoples.

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
I always thought Mexican was the term. While Latino would encompass that, it seems more broad, including South America and Carribean and said Carribean islands aren't really the tanned, Spanish speaking peoples.

Mexican is the term for people from Mexico, and even though I am sure they comprise a large portion of the illegals crossing the border, they aren't the only ones. People from all over Central and South America are crossing here as well thus the Latino I mentioned.

As for the first part of the post, sure we all agree illegal immigration is a problem. We just can't agree on what to do about it. One side has the 'lets shoot 'em and be done with it', and the other is 'let's grant 'em amnesty and be done with it', with a whole bunch of others in the middle. There is the prediction of what the government is actually going to do because sometimes its wildly different than what we think they should do.

Therein ultimately lies the discussion. I reason that the solution will be somewhere in the middle of the two, as often it is.

Of course the thread originally started about the National Guard getting shot at and it evolved into illegal immigration, and then it evolved very recently on the correct terminology of said illegals. At least I think thats how it went.

Originally Posted by Idaho:
My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:

Hmm, not quite certain where to begin on this one. Off the top of my head...

1) I shouldn't care that armed invaders assaulted a border patrol for my nation because 'it's too far away' ? So if Al-Queda attacked San Francisco, your answer would be that it's none of my busienss because it's too far away?

2) Your geography isn't so bad, but your demographics suck. There's large numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants in North Carolina (where I lived until last June), Massachussets (about 10 miles away) and other states that are no where near the border. Every place they come, it's the same thing: don't pay taxes but drain local services and they force schools to put Spanish language programs in place, punishing English speaking children by siphoning off resources. Add in the kidnappings for dog-fighting and the vigilantism, and you've got yourself a genuinely desirable bunch of folks.

3) I have absolutely no issue with legal immigration. My grandparents were immigrants for crying out loud. My issue is with the determined undercurrent to overrun the US by a population that pays no taxes, that draws money out of the social services system, that sends that money home to Mexico, that works cohesively to establish 'little Mexicos' around the country with the goal of integrating the entire USA into one Aztlan and has no intention of obeying any laws, let alone immigration ones.

Yes, most Mexican immigrants are here to earn some money. But in doing so, they're destroying the living wage most non-college educated Americans can hope toearn. They don't respect our laws, they don't learn the language, and frankly, Europeans know very little about this issue.

Yet, many of you (and I apologize for the overly broad brush I painted with the other night) feel perfectly free to dictate to us what our laws should be and how we should enforce them, even going so far as to tell us that our opinions are unacceptable. To this sub-group of Europeans, let me ask you, what gives you the right? Where do you get off telling us what to do? If you have all the answers to the world's problems, apply them at home and leave us alone. Opinions are welcome. Orders and insults, not so much.

http://www.lprnw.com/random/johnL.jpg
TO THIS THREAD!

Originally Posted by Don Corleone:
2) Your geography isn't so bad, but your demographics suck. There's large numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants in North Carolina (where I lived until last June), Massachussets (about 10 miles away) and other states that are no where near the border. Every place they come, it's the same thing: don't pay taxes but drain local services and they force schools to put Spanish language programs in place, punishing English speaking children by siphoning off resources.

No doubt it's worse in the Southwest, but they're literally everywhere. A town just down the Interstate from me recently made national news for trying to cope with their illegal immigration problems.

Originally Posted by Idaho:
My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:

I am in MI and a buddy of mine manages a restaurant (I wont say which one but it is a popular chain restaurant) that does background and SS# checks on all their employees and a few months ago there was a rumor started that they would be doing more in-depth checks on all their employees and the next day 12 of his staff had disappeared. Proximity to the boarder is not that big a factor when one can travel uninterrupted for 4,000 miles.

I think you are all worrying far more about this issue than it really merits. But then one only has to briefly skim through US history to see that exactly the same outcry has occurred with every wave of immigration. The Italians, the Irish, the Jews, etc.

Yeah they are illegal atm. But give it 30 years and they will be established citizens complaining about all the.. er.. Algerians coming over and taking jobs.

Originally Posted by Idaho:
Yeah they are illegal atm. But give it 30 years and they will be established citizens complaining about all the.. er.. Algerians coming over and taking jobs.

Or that they have absolutely no social security. :thumbsdown:

I think this is different. The Italians,the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, they aren't going back to the old country every fall and living there, then coming back here. They form groups and tough it out, adding to the vibrant fabric of America.

Now the illegals do 1 of 2 things.
1.They come here, take jobs as dishwashers, fruit pickers, and other menial jobs, and send their money directly back to Mexico. They then return home after they got medical attention for their broken arm, and keep some people out of the jobs. They only pay sales taxes and other small taxes for their use of public roads.
2.They bring their families north, breed like rabbits, complain about the overcrowding in their apartment, send their kids to schools but don't bother to teach them English and force the schools to conform to the Spanish children. They take a minimum wage job, pay some taxes, but since they aren't 'there' they don't pay all of it.

Now this is a generalization of much of the situation. No 2 illegals are like another. However this is the basic situation especially in Texas, California, and many states across the Union.
They don't pay as much in taxes as a middle-class American, very little of the money they earn is invested in the American economy but in the Mexican economy.
Then you have the crack-pots who decide that 'manifest destiny' was just American imperialism and claim they were here before any of us were, and that we took their land, and want to claim California (One of the highest GDP in the world) Texas (Another big one), Phoenix and New Mexico, and maybe a couple other spots as their own. You think I'm kidding? Find a book at your library called "History Lessons", and find out how other nations view U.S. history. The North Korean one is a hoot (epic poem about Kim-Il Sung),but the Mexicans always complain about us 'stealing' Texas, and doing very bad stuff.

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
I think this is different. The Italians,the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, they aren't going back to the old country every fall and living there, then coming back here. They form groups and tough it out, adding to the vibrant fabric of America.

Go and check the history again. You'll find that during all these migrations there was initially a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between the home nation and the US.

EDIT: Due to Del Arroyo's post I have realized all the Mexican-Americans I know do travel back and forth quite frequently. I naturally assumed it was alot harder for illegals to cross, considering what we are doing to try and keep them out. We all know what happens when we assume don't we? So I'll stick with what I do know. Sorry folks.

I don't know about the Italians, the Irish, the Poles, and the Hungarians, but I do know quite a few people who are Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian immigrants, here legally. They are busy working 3 jobs for the next 10 years. Do you want to know why? It's because they live on 1 paycheck and horde the rest so that in 10 years they can take all that hard earned American money and go back to their respective countries and live a nice comfortable middle class existance for the rest of their lives.

Is that wrong? No, of course it isn't. Good for them. Are they helping the American economy? No, of course not, most of the money they save, so it never gets re-circulated back into our economy. Were they all granted Amnesty when they arrived asking the US for political asylum, or some such? Some of them. Is anyone complaining about them? No.

I will state right here and now for the members of our community who are or hail from one of the aforementioned regions. I did not intend that as a smear against your respective cultures, it is an observation I noted about a number of people I actually knew/know. Personally they were all really cool, down to earth, family oriented people.

As for the rest, I think I already might of said something similar to Idaho's post, either that or it was in the other illegal thread, but it is an excellent point. Every period of US history has had waves of immigrants from a particular country, and when they were immigrating into the US, US citizens felt the same way about them. Within a generation or two they were right there with the rest of us whining about the next group of immigrants.

So relax, have a Corona, maybe even put a wedge of lime in it, and ride the wave. Think of it as a way to make life interesting, instead of being bored to tears in middle class suburbia.

Actually, most Mexicans that I have known in the US, including some which I knew to be illegal, travel regularly between the US and their home towns. They will come and work for a season (lawn work) and spend a few months at home, or they will work one to three years at some jobs and then return to Mexico for a year or two, perhaps going back to the US later.

This is very common practice. For those who have enough starting money to pay their way in, it is not hard to get across the border.

When the Irish came here, they were here. When the Italians came here, they were here. When the Poles, Hungarians, Scots, French, whoever came here, it was because conditions in Europe weren't that great. They came in, got an ID, and badabing, they were Americans, legal as you or me.
Idaho can you give me the links to this to-ing and fro-ing?

It's just that the movements of illegal immigrants is so widespread. There are illegal immigrants from Corpus Christi to Seattle. They go by seasons, cutting lawns, picking oranges, washing dishes.
Its the very un-rootedness of this demographic, that they aren't being attached to America. They aren't contributing taxes, and are being exploited for cheap labor. While I'm not the great human activist that I sometimes wish I could be, but they are being exploited. Cheap labor to the level of slavery. It ain't great.
So, while it may blow over in a generation or two, I think this is a different wind.

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
Its the very un-rootedness of this demographic, that they aren't being attached to America. They aren't contributing taxes, and are being exploited for cheap labor.

I don't have any links to the movement of populations from and to the US. My information mainly comes from literary accounts of immigrants in the past to-ing and fro-ing as well as my own ancestors going from Austria to England to US to Israel, etc. Not to mention the pattern of immigration to the UK at the moment from Poland with people coming and going, some staying, some not.

I'm not sure where people get the idea the Mexicans aren't contributing. Do you not like your vegtables, restaurants, laundry, gardening cheap?

Originally Posted by Don Corleone:
Yes, most Mexican immigrants are here to earn some money. But in doing so, they're destroying the living wage most non-college educated Americans can hope toearn. They don't respect our laws, they don't learn the language, and frankly, Europeans know very little about this issue.

Actually Don, you'll find Europe faces exactly the same pressures from illegal immigration and it provokes all the emotions and issues that you have articulated.

There is also the added complication here that many people consider legal immigration a bad thing - that is, immigration between countries within the EU to work is legal, but also engenders many of the economic/cultural fears you note. Anger and frustration in many parts of Europe, both from immigrants and from residents is very near the surface.

For example, the UK put a ban on migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria (both new and otherwise full members of the EU) because of fears at home that wages would be undercut/social security overwhelmed even more than when the Polish were admitted. The fact that most Eastern European immigrants can actually count and want to work, as opposed to many poorly educated residents didn't seem to factor into the equation. This restriction is a lot like people from Montana being refused the option of moving to and working in California.

We don't have any good solutions yet either, so sharing ideas is helpful.

Don't mind the Mexicans, and I haven't really noticed that much of an increase in my taxes... plus there are some VERY VERY fine Latino women out here. Now, of course, I can't actively persue any of them, because... well, I do love my current spouse, and I dislike the entire prospect of an alimony, Paying Child Support, and only being able to see my kids every other weekend. But if your single, and dig brunettes with a permanent tan, sunny California is the place to be, as long as you don't mind celebrating Cinco del Mayo.

I'd rather have honest, minimum wage labor for my gardening, veggies, fruits, and whatever else illegal do.

Europeans, you have no idea about this.
1.You can't really comprehend this problem. As Americans, we can't just send them back over the border or round them up and send them over the border. Thats 'racist'.

Originally Posted by Wakizashi:
... plus there are some VERY VERY fine Latino women out here.

Here, here. Now we are finally getting to the benefits of illegal immigration. Very fine Latino women. There is nothing wrong with wading in and giving the genetic pool a nice healthy stir. :beam:

Originally Posted by Idaho:
I'm not sure where people get the idea the Mexicans aren't contributing. Do you not like your vegtables, restaurants, laundry, gardening cheap?

There is one major problem however. If an individual or group of individual, that being the illegal immigrants and the employeers of said illegal immigrants, are not contributing their fair share back into the community in the form of the taxes. Nor does employing cheap labor provide benefit to the community if the labor is being exploited because of their status. It creates more problems then it solves. It leaves a group of people in an exploited status and treates them as less.

I for one don't have a problem with immigrantion of people into the United States. If people want to improve thier lives by coming to the United States - by all means come, but do so within the scope of the laws of the nation you are coming to.

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Actually Don, you'll find Europe faces exactly the same pressures from illegal immigration and it provokes all the emotions and issues that you have articulated.

There is also the added complication here that many people consider legal immigration a bad thing - that is, immigration between countries within the EU to work is legal, but also engenders many of the economic/cultural fears you note. Anger and frustration in many parts of Europe, both from immigrants and from residents is very near the surface.

For example, the UK put a ban on migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria (both new and otherwise full members of the EU) because of fears at home that wages would be undercut/social security overwhelmed even more than when the Polish were admitted. The fact that most Eastern European immigrants can actually count and want to work, as opposed to many poorly educated residents didn't seem to factor into the equation. This restriction is a lot like people from Montana being refused the option of moving to and working in California.

We don't have any good solutions yet either, so sharing ideas is helpful.

To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.

Originally Posted by Blodrast:
To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.

Knowing that others suffer from the same issue doesn’t help if the others don’t have a plan to fix it that works either.

Originally Posted by Blodrast:
To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and BQ would fall outside the aforementioned sub-group, so I hope you understand I meant neither of you, and as I said, I am guilty of early generalizations.

Discussing your situations versus ours, comparing notes, looking at what works and what doesn't... all welcome discussions. Calling Americans a bunch of redneck racists because we're not thrilled our educational and public health systems are being plundered by a group with no respect for the law.. maybe no.

Lots to comment on here.

Illegal immigration has to be wrong. States are entitled to say who should and should not be allowed to work, and if necessary who can become a citizen. Breaking those rules is wrong. At least it is sin against hospitality. Unfortunately the problem will continue while there are big differences in the nation's economies. It is all very well for those of us who live in rich nations to decry this behaviour, but what would we do if we lived in a nation where, because of exchange rates, menial work in the US or the UK would enable us to save or send substantial amounts of money to our homeland? If you are honest, you will admit that the temptation would be strong. Add to that the unwillingness of locals to carry out certain jobs and the fact that employers are willing to give jobs to people they shouldn't and the problem is inevitable.

The US faces unique problems in dealing with the issue because it is a nation founded on immigration, much of which was illegal at the time. The nations success, in integrating people from different nations and cultures makes it difficult to close the door to newcomers. I am not suggesting that the success was complete, but the US does provided an example of how integration can work, and the idea that integration is important is part of the national psyche. Add to that the obvious geographical problem and certain historical difficulties (sorry MM - "Manifest Destiny" was American Imperialism) and the current situation is inevitable.

What are the solutions? Firstly, work to improve the Mexican economy. A rich southern neighbour will benefit US trade and reduce "push" factors. Secondly go after the employers. In the UK you can be fined for employing people who do not have the right to work here.

Thirdly be careful about how you view the people themselves. Daft notions such as the fact that Texas should be returned to Mexico only come from a sense of persecution. Before you make statements like "they don't pay taxes" or "they don't contribute to the economy" or "they force Spanish to be taught in schools" consider whether the statements are true and remember that you are grouping a whole load of people together according to their nation of origin. This will engender the type of response you get.

Do we have this problem in the UK. Yes and for similar reasons. Do we deal with it better? No. We are worse. As BG says, many here are prejudiced against legal immigrants not to say the grandchildren of legal immigrants.

Originally Posted by Tom_Hagen:
Discussing your situations versus ours, comparing notes, looking at what works and what doesn't... all welcome discussions. Calling Americans a bunch of redneck racists because we're not thrilled our educational and public health systems are being plundered by a group with no respect for the law.. maybe no.

Absolutely right. :2thumbsup:

Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester:
The US faces unique problems in dealing with the issue because it is a nation founded on immigration, much of which was illegal at the time.

This point intrigued me. I assume in my ignorance, that when many of my countrymen fled to the United States back in the early 19th century, that their immigration was at first "legal" in that there were few or no immigration controls - the country simply accepted all that came. Sometime during that century (possibly around 1840-50 as we know the stories of the inbound ships from Ireland being held offshore on occasion) there must have been an imposed immigration system.

When was it that immigration controls were set up - and was it at different times for Atlantic "Old World" immigrants than for southern "cross border" immigrants? In addition, if such controls were enforced first in the 1850's how did this affect imported slaves? Were they considered simply property (as one assumes) or did they have an immigration status that needed to be defined?

I haven't expressed myself clearly here. The migration itself was not illegal, although controls were in place to make sure those arriving were "useful" (for example shipping companies were fined if they landed someone who was disabled and likely to be a burden). It was the naturalisation that was done outside the law, with restrictions on who could become a citizen and length of time they had to stay before becoming Citizens just ignored (similar to giving amnesties now).

...or the mexian goverement has made a sort of "Civilian Invaision" in other words:

Originally Posted by :
Spawn More Overlords - The Hive Mind

probally a long way off but who ever knew a C&C 3 would ever come to be?

I just realized that
A previous poster was talking about their friends who stashed money away to take back home. Well, unless they are silly in putting it in their homes, they have to stash it somewhere, and that somewhere is a bank, where it is sent back into the economy as loans.

Also statements like contributing to the economy are kinda true, taxes (aside from sales tax) are not being paid. In the UK, they obviously don't talk about principals in Texas having to hire interpreters to talk to parents of students because they can't speak English.

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
In the UK, they obviously don't talk about principals in Texas having to hire interpreters to talk to parents of students because they can't speak English.

It would be useful to read a little more widely if this is an area of interest.

The UK has had this issue for quite some time. Many inner city schools have a majority of non-English speakers as students, let alone their parents - and not just one other language but four or five. Some schools have translators on staff.

Originally Posted by :
When was it that immigration controls were set up - and was it at different times for Atlantic "Old World" immigrants than for southern "cross border" immigrants? In addition, if such controls were enforced first in the 1850's how did this affect imported slaves? Were they considered simply property (as one assumes) or did they have an immigration status that needed to be defined?

Immigration controls were set up rather quickly for the old world immigrants. They were also easy to control since it required a ship to get here. Granted though there were some illegal's that got in, sto-aways and all. But other then that it was simple to keep the immigration under control. Even in the early 1900's there was stiff immigration regulation for the old world. Alot of problems occured for jewish germans trying to immigrate here.

As for slaves, they were illegal to import to America by 1850. That went into law in 1812 IIRC. It's written into the constitution. Any slave imported here was inherantly illegal, but since they were considered a property the problem would be against the owner. I don't recall what the punishment was but I doubt it was very good for the african-american.

Integration is always the problem when dealing with the illegal's from south America and primarily Mexico. Integration rarely happens with them, they usually end up just making little mexico's, and do not learn english. That creates alot of problems, communication is one of the most important part's of integrating into a society. Alot of the problem is most of them travel frequently to and from Mexico, so integration isnt even a neccesity.

Were as in times past, immigrants arrived here nearly broke and from a ship so traveling back to their homelands was never a problem. So integration was vital to their livelyhood let alone their daily lives. With Mexican illegal allien's they do not have this problem, they can travel to and from and so do not need to integrate as quickly or at all.

This is a major problem, for a start I think we need to start fining companies who use illegal alliens as a labor source. Start prosecuting those who abuse them by paying them less then minimum wage. We also need to start actually enforcing the border. The NG on the border should be armed (state problem not a federal), having gunmen attack them is even more reason to be armed. Though I do believe there is a wild eyed Sheriff in New Mexico who has alot of idea's on how to also deal with illegal alien's who are caught. Keep them here, punish them, teach them english and send them back.

Thank you for the information, BigTex. :bow: