How Effective Do You Think Militia Spearmen, and Spearmen In General Should Be?

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Originally Posted by Carl

1: Spears hate flank and rear charges. You can wipe out 90% of a unit, (as you do in vanilla with frontal charges), if you do that.

2: Cav above a certain power will simply sweep through a unit of spears causing 90% losses to said spears with less than 10% losses to themselves. Thus, in general the cav reliant factions aren’t as badly hit as you might think as their unique, high power knights usually can get away with frontal charges. Only really Papal Guard, (and maybe one or two equivalent eastern spear units), can take frontal charges in normal formation from units like Chivalric/Noble Knights.

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1: I think 32 knights can't wipe out 68 men (the double!) with a charge. How they could do it, to kill instantly an AVERAGE of 2 men per knight?
They have to lower the morale and cause the unit to root, why do you want it to disappear with a charge? I don't understand.

2: I personally don't agree, as I have explained in other posts on this topic.

It seems that you are describing the vanilla game, no need to balance it then.

For MP the most important element is cost. Any unit not worth the money you pay for it will not be used. One could easily have a game were cavalry is very strong v spears but it will fall apart if spears cost too much and players have too much money so they can get too many high quality cav units.


CBR

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MP balance isn't really a worry for mods Carl, nobody really uses mods in MP

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But where not talking about mods Musashi. Where talking about the main vanillia game and how we, the posters in this thread, feel cav should perform vs. spears.

@Vistor: The bit you quoted was a description of what happens when you apply the sheild fix. NOT vanillia. In Vanillia even mailed knights WILl sweep through spears causing 90% kills for no more losses to themselves than if they where charging 2-Handers and did the same. When I said a unit of spears, i meant a much weaker unit of spears. Spear Militia will get swept away by Chivalric Knights. But Papal uard will win with about 30% of their men remaning. The better the spear, the better the Cav unit has to be before it can sweep them aside with no real losses). Also, if even militia spears killed a lot of Chivalric Knights if charged by them they would be unblanced as the Spears can reform pretty quick and are just too cheap compared to the knights. Militia can beat Mailed Knights with the fix without any upgrades. the Spears cost 80% the price of the knights though so it's balanced.

@CBR: What you say is mostly true. But if the Historians have their way, Chivalric Knights would have to be in the 3000+Florins price range to be balanced vs infantry in MP. Can you see most MP players putting up with that? I doubt they will myself.

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Originally Posted by Carl

It's not even remotely balanced as those factions with the best knights prior to anyone getting pikes will be the factions that beat anyone else until pikes show up. And even the manoeuvrability of pikes, (or rather lack of), will ensure those with the best Knights still win.

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Most Catholic factions have knights that are roughly equal in power, and that are available at about the same time. In the early game, most of these factions can field Mailed Knights, or Norman Knights, or Feudal Knights, all of which are roughly equal (give or take a few points of armor). These troops will attrite each other on the battlefield, i.e. cancel each other out. There is no faction to my knowledge that opens the early period with a knight that can run roughshod over all the other knights of Europe. Therefore, if you can keep roughly an equal amount of heavy horse in the field as your opponent, you have your cavalry counter. Historically, knights sought out knights on the field, and samurai sought out samurai. They knew they were the creme de la creme on the medieval battlefield, and that is was they who would decide most battles. Of course, a clever commander will back up his knights with good spearmen or swordsman, so that any melees that erupt can be tipped in favor of his own knights.

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Originally Posted by Carl

I think those of you who prefer Historical accuracy need to calm down. No matter how often you state your case, CA isn't going to listen to you IMHO... So as much as you'd like cav to dominate everything bar pikes and muskets. I doubt it's actually going to happen.

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You're right, I don't need to keep stating my case. Because CA has already taken my position. M2TW presents knights as almost unstoppable freight trains when charging all foot troops except pikes. So unless one mods it to be different, the game is taking the historical position on this issue.

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You're right, I don't need to keep stating my case. Because CA has already taken my position. M2TW presents knights as almost unstoppable freight trains when charging all foot troops except pikes. So unless one mods it to be different, the game is taking the historical position on this issue.

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YOUR WRONG.

Deal with the sheild bug and they do NOT do thast, CA have taken the exact opposite postion. The advisor text only proves that still furthar.

Let me also add that lusted has revealed that CA where planning on downpowering cav and are going to try some of his anti-cav measures on top. I think thats points to CA beliving cav are too good ATM.

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Most Catholic factions have knights that are roughly equal in power, and that are available at about the same time. In the early game, most of these factions can field Mailed Knights, or Norman Knights, or Feudal Knights, all of which are roughly equal (give or take a few points of armor).

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Give or take 3 points of attacka and a few points of armour. actually, and units with better attack/defence trump those with worse attack defence, so those without fuedal Knights or with Knights better than Fuedals will bat the others.

Well arent spears pretty bugged against cav right now? Maybe a 3K florin price is acceptable to make up for the bugs :clown:

If spears were like MTW I would say the current prices are fine...


CBR

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Well arent spears pretty bugged against cav right now? Maybe a 3K florin price is acceptable to make up for the bugs

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Yeah, the sheild bug kills em badly. And LOL@ the price point. Your right in that it would probably be balanced, but it wouldn't really be fair if the high end knights where tottally unusable in most games. And since some game limits can prevent the use of low end knights iot effectivly removes knights from MP.

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If spears were like MTW I would say the current prices are fine...

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I agree and furthar points to Knights being more powerful than was intended. A unit hose sole purpose is to tackle cav (which is what spears are), should easilly be able to beat m,ounted units of a similar price and beatm, (with difficulty), moderatly more expensive ones. Right now even cav the same price go through them like a hot knife through butter.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Fourth, some people are worried this will produce factions that are all alike. I shouldn’t worry about this if I where you. The Turks, (as an example), would STILL have their focus on cav and HA, but they'd need to use at least some infantry in their armies now.

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The Turks already have to use some infantry for sieges

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The HA would still be numerous and would still kill large numbers of enemy, the main difference is that instead of just charging the remnants down with your heavies, you now have to bring up your own infantry (even cheap peasants will do), and let them pin the enemy while your run your cav round the rear and actually wipe the enemy out. Your cav and HA are still your primary troops and do the real killing. But the rest of your roster is no longer pointless.

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In other words, the Turks would then fight more like the other factions? That doesn't sound like much fun to me.

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2: I think those of you who prefer Historical accuracy need to calm down. No matter how often you state your case, CA isn't going to listen to you IMHO, they have always marketed the TW series as RTS's set in interesting time periods, they have never marketed, and I believe never intended to imply that they are accurate historical simulators. They are aimed at the RTS gaming market in general, not those of who want an historical simulators. So as much as you'd like cav to dominate everything bar pikes and muskets. I doubt it's actually going to happen. Getting wound up is only going to get those of us arguing for balance wound up and I don't want a slagging match.

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Nobody is getting wound up. The discussion so far has been polite, as far as I can tell. Some of us disagree with your take on the game, and prefer a different type of game, which is a different thing than getting "wound up." It's okay for us to have different opinions on these things, and I've found the discussion interesting, so far.

As for CA's intentions... yes, they're a RTS company, but Warcraft (and a few others) showed that this type of game can go beyond simple rock/paper/scissors balance with all units alike, only dressed up with different skins. And that's the model CA has used; with units that don't necessarily always balance 1 v. 1 against a corresponding unit. It keeps the game interesting, and it allows at least a degree of respect for historical accuracy. I imagine CA will probably keep it that way with the upcoming patch, including not forcing Turks (for example) into an a-historical reliance on infantry.

For those who don't like it, there will be mods. And of course that goes both ways. Some of us may need to look at modding the game if CA goes too far in leveling out the different units for 1 v. 1 "balance" without taking into account mixed units in an army, or historical accuracy.

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Nobody is getting wound up.

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It seemed to me that some of you, (not all of you), where expecting that if you went on enough that that’s what would happen. Nothing about the balancing in RTW or what the Adviser/in-game hints tells you should happen leads me to believe that CA intended anything other than the RPS balance. The effects of modding out the various bugs only seems to reinforce this.

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In other words, the Turks would then fight more like the other factions? That doesn't sound like much fun to me.

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You have to understand that the Turks aren’t intended to fight as an ALL HA/Cav army. Just as the English aren’t intended to fight as an all Foot Archer/2-Hander Force Or the French an all Melee Cav Force, or the Scots and all Pike force.

Everyone was expected to use a mix of foot archers, melee cav, melee foot and possible HA's. The differences where always in my mind intended to be the type of melee cav/melee foot/foot archers/HA used, and the quantity in which they where used. Turks and Byzantine both strike me as unit rosters that where meant to use large amounts of HA/Melee cav in combination with small numbers of melee foot, and foot archer forces. With Byzantine having a slightly greater focus on infantry, particularly in the late game.

The Scots where always intended to use large numbers of heavily armoured Pikemen, backed up by good Sword and Shield units and Composite infantry. With Minor cav and missile forces alongside.

NO army IMHO was intended to get by without at least SOME foot melee, foot missile, and mounted melee units. The defining points where meant to be the types and quantities in which they where used.

Generally if a unit is in a game and it's not being used their are 2 reasons for it:

1. The army in question was never intended to need such a units, and thus it's inclusion was an error of judgment.

2. They where meant to HAVE to use it to at least some degree, but the game's balance is out and thus the player is not being made to use it as he should be.

As Turks with the fixes, 75% of your forces will still be cav/cav archers, and 90% of the kills will belong to them. However, you will no longer be able to field armies composed 100% of cav/HA.

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Originally Posted by Carl

As Turks with the fixes, 75% of your forces will still be cav/cav archers, and 90% of the kills will belong to them. However, you will no longer be able to field armies composed 100% of cav/HA.

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If someone wants to mod the game that way, more power to 'em. But I'd be very surprised if CA moves in that direction for the upcoming vanilla patch. I guess we'll find out in a month or two.

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As for CA's intentions... yes, they're a RTS company, but Warcraft (and a few others) showed that this type of game can go beyond simple rock/paper/scissors balance with all units alike, only dressed up with different skins. And that's the model CA has used; with units that don't necessarily always balance 1 v. 1 against a corresponding unit. It keeps the game interesting, and it allows at least a degree of respect for historical accuracy. I imagine CA will probably keep it that way with the upcoming patch, including not forcing Turks (for example) into an a-historical reliance on infantry.

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Actually after talking to Pala i dont think CA intended for spears to be so weak against cav, or for ca to be all powerful. They do want more of a rock, paper scissor balance like that me and Carl have been talking about.

Thanks Lusted for tha titbit.

@Zenicitus: Well what DO you want then? Clearly with an RPS balance you can't have a faction that rellies tottaly on mounted units so what do you actually want? Besides, you don't think you where given the best muskets and 2nd best 2-handers in the game (Jassinary Musketeers and JHI), for no good reasoj do you. And yes I know they are late units, i'm just pointing out that you have been given some really good infantry, so I can't see any reason why you arn't meant to use it.

Besides, i'm not modding the game that way. That IS how the game REALLY plays out after bug fixes. Admitedly the sheild fix nuters HA even more than it really should, (sheilds don't work right against missiles eithier BTW), so they will be a bit more powerful again once sheilds are really working. However, neithier they nor Cav where ever intended to be viabile without infanry support based on the effects of bug fixing IMHO.

p.s. Turks arn't going to rely on infantry, they just ARE going to have to use it. relying on it means having to use it to do all their fighting. which they won't it will be the cav doing all the killing. Not your infantry. you just need the infantry for the cav to be ABLE to do the killing.

Lusted just bassiclly confirmed it IMO.

I haven't seen any evidence that shields aren't working properly against missiles, only your insistence that AP missiles shouldn't work against shields, which I still believe is silly, since shields are armor.

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Originally Posted by Lusted

Actually after talking to Pala i dont think CA intended for spears to be so weak against cav, or for ca to be all powerful. They do want more of a rock, paper scissor balance like that me and Carl have been talking about.

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So, what did he say that led you to draw those conclusions?

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So, what did he say that led you to draw those conclusions?

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He was talking about ways he was trying to reduce cav power, and asked me how i had made spearmen better against cav in my LTC mod.

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I haven't seen any evidence that shields aren't working properly against missiles, only your insistence that AP missiles shouldn't work against shields, which I still believe is silly, since shields are armor.

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I won't go throught the AP argument again. but here are some tests that show archers are doing more damage aainst sheild units than against units with the sheild in armopur. in the one of mine I'm linking to they where defintly shooting head on at the enemy, so the sheild should have been in effect.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=115

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=118

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Originally Posted by Lusted

He was talking about ways he was trying to reduce cav power, and asked me how i had made spearmen better against cav in my LTC mod.

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Cool, thanks. Plans may indeed be in motion to pare back heavy cavalry.

While I was mulling these issues, another thought occured: if spearmen are strengthened to the point that they can repel charges and defeat knights without support, why even bother building pikes? Why have pikes in the game at all?

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While I was mulling these issues, another thought occured: if spearmen are strengthened to the point that they can repel charges and defeat knights without support, why even bother building pikes? Why have pikes in the game at all?

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Ah they wont be that strong, no spear unit would be able to stand up to the later heavy cavalry like gendarmes, lancers, or even chivalric knights. So you would need pikes against them.

I'm not going to go real indepth here. I want to point out another aspect of the "spearman". The spear is one of the most ancient weapon's used in medieval warfare.They were common long before such things as mounted cavalry were invented. You keep referring to spearman as "A unit solely intended to counter Cavalry" but thats not true. Spearman are "A unit that is cheap to equip because spears are easy to make, easy to use and provide some minor protection from horses."

If spearman were so potent at stopping cavalry, why are they mostly ignored in historical references to medieval battles? Because they were considered to be little more then fodder. If you weren't wielding either a halberd or billhook, you were considered cheap and inneffective. Most games, and almost all historical references, make spearman out to be what they are...a outdated unit that poor nations trained so they had some warm bodys in the way of the enemy.

I personally feel that Spearman are fine the way they are now, but they need to cost about half as much. The same goes for every other spear wielding unit. The whole idea of spear units are that they cost less to equip and are easy to train = Cheap. Right now, a Spearman costs 2/3rd that of DFK's. Thats nuts, it should be less then half. Either that, or all the high-end units should have their price increased significantly.

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While I was mulling these issues, another thought occured: if spearmen are strengthened to the point that they can repel charges and defeat knights without support, why even bother building pikes? Why have pikes in the game at all?

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What lusted said, allthough I would point out that with the sheild fix and nothing else, Papal Guard can beat the best Knights avalibile. but they ARE the best s[pearmen around and no one else with acess to pikes gets spearmen that good.

Also it's best to remeber that working Pikes tend to destroy anything you put in front of them. i've had 40-1 kill rates from them in bridge battles before, (1000 dead enemy for 25 dead pikes). They are however, VERY vulnrable to a flank or rear attack from even very basic infantry.

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spearman were so potent at stopping cavalry, why are they mostly ignored in historical references to medieval battles?

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probably because their wern't many pro spear troops around back then. The harsh fact is that they probably wouldn't stand their ground when the cav came running towards them. pro troops would. And as I pointed out with examples from modern Horse Racing. If a galloping horse hits anything solid it's likliy to go flying along with the rider. Frankly I can't see how any galloping charge could have sucseeded against discaplined infantry who held formation.

The problem with your idea of cheap trash, (which is what they where in most cases), is two fold. 1. theirs no point including it in the game as it serves no purpose. 2. that isn't what most spear units in the game represenmt anyway. they represent the ones who would hold their ground in fromation and thus decimate knights in reality.

I will however admit that (as with the knights themselves), these units are a lot more common in game than they where historiclly.

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Originally Posted by Carl

I won't go throught the AP argument again. but here are some tests that show archers are doing more damage aainst sheild units than against units with the sheild in armopur. in the one of mine I'm linking to they where defintly shooting head on at the enemy, so the sheild should have been in effect.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=115

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=118

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Yet testing shows that shielded units do better than unshielded units... Why are you assuming that shield value should have an equal effect to armor value?

CA's intentions are easy enough to read in this case. Knights are not meant for flanking and casing down routers. Why spend thousands on something that cheap light cavalry can do far better? They didn't design a whole new charge system just to use after the battle is essentially won, and knights in a game based on the age of chivalry aren't going to be used mainly for hitting people from behind.

There’s nothing subtle about what CA was trying to do, here. Knights are your fist, and massed charges are how you drive it into the enemy's face. Simple.

So, why should they fall in droves to the weakest, cheapest units in the game?

Just checked those results. If you check the second set they show what i was talking about but the first set disagrees. odd???

And I assume they are the same because thats how it's SUPPOSED to work.

I'll run some more sheild vs. armour tests later and see what happens this time. Maybe i got fluky results in mine...

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So, why should they fall in droves to the weakest, cheapest units in the game?

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For the last time, because thats how it SUPPOSED to work. Pav's comments to lusted, the effects of the bug fixing and the in game advisor text ALL say that spears should beat cav but be beaten by everything else except maybe some missile units and peasents. it's the only thing they do in the game at all.

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Originally Posted by General Zhukov

Cool, thanks. Plans may indeed be in motion to pare back heavy cavalry.

While I was mulling these issues, another thought occured: if spearmen are strengthened to the point that they can repel charges and defeat knights without support, why even bother building pikes? Why have pikes in the game at all?

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The obvious reason is that Pikes in fact do not perform ONLY that role in an army. Pikes when working correctly (i.e. not behaving as they do in vanilla as pansies with swords) are a formidable foe to almost any unit that exists in the game, making especially good center-of-the-line troops. Whatever it is that's in front of the pike unit, two things are for certain: it is getting poked full of holes, and it it not typically getting close to the pikes. The same cannot even remotely be said of spears, which are intentionally neutered in combat against infantry of all sorts in order to represent their narrow band of usefulness on the battlefield. Thus pikemen are in no way undermined by having spear units function as decent cavalry stoppers. Your suggestion that no one should trade in spear units for pikes is in fact like saying you already have a cheap paring knife so you find no use for a swiss army knife. In reality, the swiss army knife is far more useful as it is multi-functional, and likely to also be a better knife than your cheap paring knife. So it is with spears and pikes.

How do you know it's supposed to work that way. Perhaps armor and shield values are applied in different ways.

Because they are ALL contrbuters to the DEFENCE value against attacks. thats all thats considered in the calculations as far as we know. defence vs attack. so if the defence is the same via sheild+armour as armour alone it should produce EXACTLY the same results as it's exactly the same numbers going into the calculation.

We don't know that for certain however.

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Originally Posted by General Zhukov

While I was mulling these issues, another thought occured: if spearmen are strengthened to the point that they can repel charges and defeat knights without support, why even bother building pikes? Why have pikes in the game at all?

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For the same reason as why you want better missile or cavalry units in the game. They will be doing their job even better.

Pike units in the game should reflect not only having a longer weapon but also the fact that such troops in general had better training. They should defeat spear units and cause lots of trouble even against high quality non spear units.

Early 14th century Flemish and Swiss infantry could defeat cavalry although they didnt use the long pikes that we see being used in late 15th century.

Italian city militias could also defeat cavalry charges and they didnt use long pikes.

Throughout the middleages getting good quality infantry and getting enough of them was not easy. And its the main reason why we see English or French armies using their men-at-arms both mounted and dismounted.

But anyway...

Not only are spears too weak but cavalry might also be too easy to recruit. It doesnt seem like its that difficult to build up large armies of high quality cavalry. The recruitment system of M2TW seems like it could use a tweak or two IMO.


CBR

Yep CBR, like possibly removing the ease at which one can recruit top quality units from just the castle wall upgrades and instead making them recruitable only from the barracks or stables buildings.

What happens if pikes are given a mass of 3, 4, or 5 instead of 1.2? Could that help them retain their formation better without having to remove their secondary weapon altogether? I'm loathe to remove the secondary weapon since it just appears to make them uber units in only the hands of the human...

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Originally Posted by Jambo

What happens if pikes are given a mass of 3, 4, or 5 instead of 1.2?

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Just a small chip-in:
In my experience, it's always better to reduce the mass of mounts than to increase the mass of infantry. I realize that you probably had pikes vs. infantry situations in mind here as well, but in that case I think it's also better to not make the mass of infantry too high and work on other solutions.

Btw, increasing the mass of infantry brings to mind the scenes from Asterix comics, when the Gauls storm through the Roman legions and the legionnaires are being flung in the air by their charge... ~D