Complete Pike/Sheild/2-Hander Fix

@Musashi: uld you give me the test conditions you used please as i'm not getting the same results as you. Pike Militia are sending Swiss Guard Packing when I control the Pikes, (with less than 3 dead too), and even when i control the Swiss Guard I suffer 50% losses killing them. remeber, Pikemen have a defualt Formation that is far deeper than they need, (4 ranks will do thank you), and have guard Mode on. You need to disable Guard Mode. Make the enemy advance into your pikes and deploy them reletivly wide and they steamroller Swiss Guard, (who don't seem to care if they are in Guard Mode or not).

So could I have the full details of your tests please?

I guess I should have clarified earlier, but when controlling pikemen I am letting them come to me. Just did some tests and...

Halberd milita 49 losses, Highland pikemen 1 loss.

Obudshear 60 losses, Highland Pikemen 1 loss.

So if you hold your ground (although I have guard mode off), it is simply a slaughter. I'm not sure what happens when trying to use pikes offensively but in this case I just walk up to enemy and stop a very short distance away but having my pikes make contact, or just out of range. This usually makes them attack and I'm guessing with nearly the same results.

Yeah, thats about what i'm seeing Hoplite. But Musashi is claiming otherwise and i'm wondering what he's doing to get those results TBH.

Just for fun I tried Highland pikemen vs. dismounted feudal knights with origianl (vanilla) stats.

1 vs. 1 the highland pikemen lose and inflict about 30 casualties.

but...

3 vs. 3 with pikemen shoulder to shoulder, the Highland pikemen won while inflicting approx 160 casualties and taking approx 80 losses. Not too bad for an unarmored unit with an upkeep of only 125 (vs. 225 of DFK).

Also, the Highland pikemen had no trouble defeating feudal knights, again not too bad for a unit with half the upkeep cost.

I never thought pikes needed fixing per se, its just that you have to use them standing still vs. RTW where you could slowly walk up and attack. That is the real problem. Yes, they draw their swords too early, but as you can see they are still quite effective even when doing so. What really needs to be fixed is better sword/pike management and the ability to slowly wade in with lowered pikes, but in terms of effectiveness they are fine, and have been if used defensively, which in truth was their real purpose.

Another test with vanilla stats:

Aventuros vs. dismounted feudal kinghts 3 vs. 3.

Dismounted feudal knight 138 losses, Aventuros 35.

Like I said, pikemen are good even in vanilla M2TW, people just are not using them correctly, or should I say efficiently. As a man who loves pike units, I have to be honest and say I don't see the need for a "fix", but rather a minor tweak in second and third rows holding pikes longer. But as you can see for their upkeep costs they are capable of inflicitng heavy losses vs much more expensive, and armored troops. They do very well vs. cavalry as well, you just can't attack with them but you you can walk up to enemy and stop. This is how I have been using them from the beginning and had only very minor complaints. Just my thoughts.

As a note, the same holds true for vanilla halberd units. When testing these units you really need to try 3 vs. 3 or more, 1 vs. 1 will yield substancially different results. I always have guard mode off and generally widen the formation slightly, and it works very well. With vanilla stats, I still found pikemen to be superior to halberd units.

Pikes have a lot of anti-cav benefits though so even Chivalric Knighjts vs. Pike Militia will be a loss for the pikes. Also, Dismounted Fuedal Knights are nowhere near as far up the tech tree as most proffeshional pikemen, so it's hardly suprising the pikes can do so well. 2-Handers and ikes (when working or fixed), are alike in that they tottally demolish any other infantry, but equally late Sword and heild units can inflict moderate losses, and somtimes even win if the quality disparity is big enough.

The problem with pikes ATM without the fix is they won't attack if you move them, and they don't tend to do a proper push of pike as it where, (dopp can explain it better as he's actually used these units under vanillia, i'm just quoting others), If they try to do anything other than sit their and poke at somon who walks upto them they simply disintigrate. In general the Pike Fix is for those that can't get the working, or those that can but want less hassle with it, (it has also to be remebered that their are a number of ways a human can cheat vs. vanillia pikes to force them to draw swords. With the fix the AI still stands somthing of a chance against these tactics, though if I could get the AI out of Guard Mode it would be better).

Your results are intresting mind, and give me a lot of useful info. For what it's worth I think Pikes are a bit good with the fix, but if Dopp's accounts and yours are correct, a bit weak in vanillia, (mostly due to a near total inability to move).

p.s. for what it's worth, (and as i've said before), I tend to feel that Pikes have been as badly undercosted in vanillia as english Bill units. Late Bill units and most pikes are the equivelent of 2-handers tech-tree and should have similar combat performance, and as a consequence price IMHO. Most armies only get Pikes OR 2-hander after all.

One more then I'll shut up :embarassed: .

Highland pikemen vs. Gothic knights with vanilla stats:

Gothic knights 40 losses (1 remaining), highland pikemen 50 losses (26 men remaining). Second test; Gothic knights 41 losses (0 remaining), Highland pikemen 42 losses (29 remaining). This is without any armor/weapon upgrades.

Upkeep cost, 125 for Highland pikemen, 320 for Gothic knights. Considering that you can field 2 of these units for the cost of one of most cavalry units (250), this seems pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Armoured Hoplite

Can't seem to edit so...

What I maent to say is that flanking with cavalry may be a possibility, and may be effective, will have to try. But flanking with infantry is a bit more unrealistic in terms of possibility, and pikemen shouldn't have this much control on enemies tactics. It just seems to me they are way too effective head on now, and I encourage others to test and provide feedback as this is getting close to be very very acceptable in terms of balance.

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Build some peasant archers. Arrows pretty much decimate pikes.

Still, just to try I had 3 pike militia vs. 3 dismounted chivalric knights and they still did ok but lost. They were routing the knight units at times and generally lost at a 2 to 1 ratio. Considering that pike militia have 75 men vs. 60, and that these were militia (non-professional armies) with a much lower upkeep, I think that is fair.

Aventuros had no trouble beating the dismounted chivalric knights. Highland pikemen are on the same level as dismounted feudal knights and Aventuros are on the same level as dismounted chivalric knights. Both are professional armies and the pikes win. This with a lower upkeep cost and the ability to beat up on cavalry (whereas other units are devastated by charge). Militia units are supposed to be weak and generally have very low morale. They are to defend cities, which they do very well. If people take milita units out into the filed vs. same tier professional armies, they should lose handily. Keep in mind there are VERY few professional pike units as well.

I just don't see the problem with pike units in vanilla vs. same tier, similarly trained units.

This is not to say they don't have problems that need addressed, its just that I think they are certainly more than useable in vanilla game. They still do great vs. cavalry, and do well vs. infantry units as well. They are even better when forming and holding a line. Not much more you can ask for. Still, there is room for some improvement, but I don't want to see them made too dominant either.

Just my opinion, and again I apologize if I sound rude or ungrateful.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Build some peasant archers. Arrows pretty much decimate pikes.

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Which is why in the manual it says that spear wall formations are vulnerable to archers. A unit that beats same tier infantry and cavalry should have a weakness. Again, this coming from a big pike fan.

Thanks Goofball, you've given me a bit more to chew on.

Confused anyone?

Probably. What Goofball has tried pointing out (and him puting it how he has has helped organise my thoughts), is that this game ISN'T balanced on a unit X cost 600 Florins so it will beat any unit that costs less than 300 Florins easilly.

That isn't how the games balanced. look at Zwei Handlers in vanillia or my bug-fixer. In both they are a littile over 600 Florins, but will tear apart even 600 Florin Swords and Sheild units with only moderate losses. (i.e. they won't suffer equal losses). On the flip side repetetive charges allow even a 300 Florin Light Cav unit to Beat them. Their Low armour also means a 220 Florin Peasant Archer unit can wipe them out without them ever doing any damage.

Pikes are like that. Whilst defiently underpriced IMHO, they are meant to be nearly impirvious to any head on attack, (high quality Sword and Sheild units like Dismounted Christian Guard can beat low quality pikes head on, but thats the quality diffrance talking), but be lacking in turn rate, ability to fight off flankers and resistance to Archers, as well as not having as fast a kill rate as 2-Handers.

2-Handers on the other hand can much more easilly recive flank Charges, move around more freelly and kill more quickly, as well as tending to be slightly more missile resistant thank Pikes. However they lack the cav charge resistance and will take many more losses beating their opponnents than Pikes.

Regarding Militia Units: All Militia units in this game are also meant to be used in feild armies, they just arn't as good as the pro units. Pike Militia are about the same as Hoplite Militia where in RTW, and pro pikes at the level of Hoplites/Armoured Hoplites, (depending on type). The pro ones are better, but they are all used in feild armies. The only diffrance between militia units in M2TW and in RTW is that they are free upkep in M2TW. In the end they mearly represent a cheaper weaker alternative to pro units that can also freely garrission cities. Garrission duty is NOT however intended to be their only duty by any means. Indeed early on the only infantry most armies get is militia units.

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I just don't see the problem with pike units in vanilla vs. same tier, similarly trained units.

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Where your last lot of tests done in vanillia or under the fix as it's my understanding that in vanillia, Pikes of the same era in vanillia will tend to get beaten or baerly win against armies of the same era that are composed of other units. this really isn't how they are meant to work IMHO, and that why i bothered to include Dopps fix. (p.s. if you think it's too much, take it up in his thread, i'm just including it in my fix because a lot of people wanted a fix with everything in).

Was doing a bit of testing on 2H units and it seems like the Dismounted Gothic Knights take a severe thrashing from anything (Sword+board, other 2H) in this mod. I don't have the numbers written down but it seems like the worst comes from Venetian heavy infantry and Dismounted English/noble Knights. The closest fight was Janissary Heavies. In fact the only fights the gothics won were against units that they were quite obviously supposed to thrash, and these were quite one sided as well.

I can understand the Janissaries taking down the gothics, as based on the fact that (to my best knowledge) JHI and DGK are both not modified in the 2H fixes. However based on what I understand of the balance (Purpose and stats) the Gothics should be at least a close match for either the DEK/DNK or VHI.

While I'm hesitant to suggest making the gothics any more powerful (they do seem to be dishing out a thrashing where they should) it seems like DEKs/DNK/VHI have gone to the other extreme from where they were. These units now seem to be quite the powerhouses. I have yet to find an infantry unit that can give the DEK/DNK (they seem to be quite the mirror of each other) a run for it's money. I've not done as extensive of testing of the VHI, but it seems to be in a similar situation.

Obviously, I could just counter with heavy cav (seems to break the DEKs just fine), but I'm not really convinced that a DEK:DGK fight should go to the DEKs with double the kills (or more). Fights between somewhat similar elite 2H units should be a very bloody fight, down to the last few men on either side.

[EDIT] A bit more information. I can't seem to find any infantry that can stand up to a DEK/DNK unit, except (oddly since they're really not infantry) a unit of retinue longbowmen. Said longbowmen seem to be pretty studly in the end right now. On a Side note I've seen them stand up to a unit of Mounted Gothics before using the spikes (so sadly the AI had to control the Gothics on that fight). Seems that the combination of having to go around the spikes and charging the thin end of the formation blunted the charge well......

In any case I'll have to do more testing tomorrow night if I get the chance. Perhaps I'll have to see about finding a soldier line that seems a bit more proper for the DEK/DNK. VHI I'm not so sure on. It seems like they could stand to take a stats hit (attack perhaps? most of the non bugged heavy defense units seem to have significantly less attack, though a lot of those don't share the same purpose as the VHI). The goal I'll be going for is somewhere around a 10ish man difference from DGK/JHI. Seems like a fair number to me as both are high end unchanged elite units. The other change I miight see about is giving the DGK a fairly low Defense (somewhere between half and athird of what it is now) an giving it two HP.

Carl: I just ran some more tests and got the same results... Using grassy plain, halberds beat equivalent pikes on basically a 2:1-3:1 ratio.

I think it might be because on huge unit sizes halberd units (Being deployed in a shallower formation) have a significantly longer "line", and wrap around the flanks of the pike unit and annihilate it (They win even when set on guard mode however, so...).

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Originally Posted by Stlaind

Was doing a bit of testing on 2H units and it seems like the Dismounted Gothic Knights take a severe thrashing from anything (Sword+board, other 2H) in this mod. I don't have the numbers written down but it seems like the worst comes from Venetian heavy infantry and Dismounted English/noble Knights. The closest fight was Janissary Heavies. In fact the only fights the gothics won were against units that they were quite obviously supposed to thrash, and these were quite one sided as well.

I can understand the Janissaries taking down the gothics, as based on (to my best knowledge) JHI and DGK are both not modified in the 2H fixes. However based on what I understand of the balance (Purpose and stats) the Gothics should be at least a close match for either the DEK/DNK or VHI.

While I'm hesitant to suggest making the gothics any more powerful (they do seem to be dishing out a thrashing where they should) it seems like DEKs/DNK/VHI have gone to the other extreme from where they were. These units now seem to be quite the powerhouses. I have yet to find an infantry unit that can give the DEK/DNK (they seem to be quite the mirror of each other) a run for it's money. I've not done as extensive of testing of the VHI, but it seems to be in a similar situation.

Obviously, I could just counter with heavy cav (seems to break the DEKs just fine), but I'm not really convinced that a DEK:DGK fight should go to the DEKs with double the kills (or more). Fights between somewhat similar elite 2H units should be a very bloody fight, down to the last few men on either side.

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Yeah the DGK stats are 14 attack, 6 charge, defense 14. For starters they lack the all-powerful AP ability, and secondly their attack and defense combo is not in the realm of the really powerful units. Either one could be considered to be, but both together, no. This is because other dismounted knights either have a shield and are therefore ~13 attack, ~3 charge, ~21 defense... or because they have insanely high attack values with ap stat like ~21 attack, ~6 charge, ~13 defense (DEK). Without one of their attack or defense stats being in the 21 range, or both totaling ~34, they probably won't be able to compete. As you mentioned they appear to have worked from the start... and therefore fall into the category of units that were not bugged and appear to have been balanced against bugged shield and bugged 2H units, making them weak now that both of the above are fixed.

In fact the more I think about it, the more I do not envy the people who have to rebalance all the units for the coming patch that presumably fixes all these battlefield bugs. The reason I haven't tried to address the various underpowered units like DGK is that I don't feel comfortable doing such subjective work. After all, what exactly should a unit that costs 810 to recruit do? I have no real way to determine that, where the developers probably have derived some sort of cost system for various stats and abilities units can have, and thus I leave it to them as they can probably do it far faster and more reliably.

Thing is, in here the DGKs have 20 attack (w/ AP). And they still take an absolute thrashing.:thumbsdown:


I think the problem with the various 2h that are broken in the vanilla game is that there are motions in the animation file that error. My guess is that we see this as a no motion animation (the assumed default).

This animation file seems extraordinarily complex the more I think about it. While I'll have to check as I wasn't looking for it, but now that I think about it I don't remember seeing any VHI use a shield block motion, they all seemed to be parries or such. Likewise I think that perhaps the weapon motions are modified based on some internal modifiers.

Seemingly weapon/defensive motions are driven by a comparison of attack vs applied defense with some amount of a random variable (I'm guessing a table generated from total attack + total applicable def setting probabilites for each possible animation), this then takes into account various settings (does the soldier have a shield? I'm guessing a can this soldier parry or is attack parryable also takes place, but I'm a little sketchy on those). From here an animation is pulled from the file, played, and the calcs are done again if needed.

Now applying what I've said about animations/attack process (and assuming I'm even in the ball park) it seems like there are a few things occuring with the DEK/DNK. One is that most of the halberd types (I think that is what the anmimation used for DEKs is) attack fairly fast if I recall right. I'm guessing that the warhammer that the DEK/DNK has is supposed to swing somewhat slower. Two, I think DGK were slowed down/stat robbed during a late phase of balancing. They certainly seem to thrash those non-bugged troops that they should, and compare well against the JHI (again a non-bugged troop type, fights went to single digits for me with the AP change and higher attack). Also they get absolutely thrashed by heavy cav, ehich they should (kinda, I have my beefs with this historically, but the balance here is good). This means that they are fullfilling two cases which I would state for them 1: They counter what they should and 2: They are properly countered. This is not the fabled Rock Paper Scissors system, as that would mean such low losses as to be over the top, rather it's a bit more of a soft/psuedo counter system. What I mean by this is that they have a purpose which they carry out well, but not so well that you could throw a virtually infinate number of "that which they kill" at them and there would still be a unit of Gothics sitting there. Rather they take losses which over time renders the unit incapable of doing anything at all on the battle field till the unit has been retrained.

However at the same time it does pull a little from the "RPS" system in that two troop units that are intended for killing and being killed by the same things should "tie". That is they should both render the other impotent on the battlefield in the end. Two 60 man units reduced to single digits are pretty well demolished. This is of course again modified by how much the unit "costs" to place on the battle field, which is a whole other process. Basically cost should be a number for showing us who should rout who (assuming they aren't being attacked by "that which kills them" )

The important thing here is that we do have numbers from the cost on how they are expected to perform. The difficulty is in deriving which numbers are lowered due to balancing post-bug or are in place from pre-bug (assuming the bug appeared mid balance process and not before or after), also there is the fact that there are now so very many units that seem to be affected by one bug or another. Anything with a shield has a lower def, 2H (apparanetly, assuming I'm right) has missing animations.

If someone can provide proof that I'm wrong I'll be interested to see how it really works.

Now that I've got that block of text to build off of, (:dizzy2:) it seems to me that the dismounted knight lines and "heavy infantry" lines are intended to wade through militia type troops and lose to cav (otherwise they'd be mounted). This means that Heavy Infantry and Knights are roughly analagous and can be expected to essentially cause MAD to some degree.

I do agree with you on the boggling amount of balancing/testing to be done if a 2H/S+B fix is going into the next patch we get.

Those DEKs, DNKs and DPKs are obscene with the default 21/13 stats and the super fast spinning attack animation (assuming you used the fixed animations). 2HS units have a much slower animation. With all fixes in place (pike, shield and animation) the stats I settled on are:

JHI 14/10 ap (i.e. +2)
DEKs, DNKs and DPKs 13/13 ap
Billmen 10/3 ap
Heavy Billmen 10/10 ap
VG 13/12 ap
DGKs 16/14 ap
In fact all 2HS got +2 attack and ap.

I'm considering lowering the pike attack by 2 or buffing the halberd attack by 2, but haven't done enough testing yet.

@Stlaind: Your quite right with your tests. I noticed Similar things, I'm working on 1.1 now, (so many changes it's too many to call 1.03, the 0.1 increases are for minor bits and peices with minor effects on 1 or 2 units. the .1 numbers are for big units).

The main problem lies with the attack animations, even with 24 attack the DGK would probably still lose. On the flip side i've been experimenting witgh the Esastern Halber Militia, (ME_Halberd_Militia), animation and it seems more balanced vs. other 2-Handers. It powers some units up, and others down, (units with weaker armour get an upsides from the change). i also looks like it might be a sutibale replacment for the 2HS animation, which would make it possible to balance DGK vs. everyone else, as the slower animation problem would be gone. However in testing I found controlling the DGK yeiklded better result as they tended to charge properly and their powerful charge ability rerely helps for some reason. I might even be able to apply the same animation Fix to westeran Halberds as they seems to have a frigtfully slow secondery attack and thus get wailed on quite hard by anything they encounter, even with +10 attack. I'll talk more about them in a second after i've anwsered Musashi's post.

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I think it might be because on huge unit sizes halberd units (Being deployed in a shallower formation) have a significantly longer "line", and wrap around the flanks of the pike unit and annihilate it (They win even when set on guard mode however, so...).

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This explains it Musashi. in my tests I was keeping my Hlberds the same width as in my next release I was intending, (and have now implemented in the beta file on my PC), to decrease the defualt number of ranks for Pike and spear units (3 for spears, 4 for pikes), as the defualt formation is a LOT deeper than it needs to be once you fix the sheild/pike bugs. in those situations they get beat upon quite hard. I actually implemented the change and re-tried. Things went even worse. Also, Cv where easilly sweeping into the flanks and anhialating them too, and their secondery animations are so slow that Sword and Sheild units and other 2-handers where having a feld day even when stats said they should have lost.

Finding that upping attack just wasn't working and that most of the problem seemed to be down to the fact that the halberds had to be spread very thin to match the Pikes formation. I tried somthing radical. I upped the unit size to 60. the same as the Pkes, (who incidently they are similar to stats wise anyway). They still wern't beating the pikes, (even with me in control of the Halberds), but they where inflicting moderate losses and genrally doing a lot better across the board. Still need to do a few tests vs. heavier cav and 2-Handers. Plus I want to try them on Huge as Musashi did and see what happens then, (I can run small custom battles at this size).

@Jambo: those are nice figures, but they would throw the current Sword and Sheild vs. 2-Hander balance out. That blance is pretty good at defualt with all the fixs in place. Thats largly why i'm trying to bring unit upto their level.


Here's a quick rundown of what should hopefully turn up in the next release.

1. Defualt formation width changes to make the AI use the optimum formation for the fixed units.

2. 2-Hander fixing animations should now be natural looking (a lot less pokeing).

3. 2-Handed Swords and Western Halberds hopefully with a new animation to make them more competetive.

4. Eastern Halberds and 2-Handed Swords will now have 8 charge and +10 attack, (was +6), and AP to help re-balance them further vs. DEK/DNK/DPK. (NOTE: some of the changes listed are allready present in V1.02).

5. Western Halberds will have a larger unit size and probbably improved stats.

6. All of the above are subject to change if testing shows any combination to be unbalanced.

Hope that helps everyone, and sorry for the spelling. I havn't got Word re-installed yet.

There's a reason why the 2-H Axe units all had massive attack values in vanilla, and that's because they were all neutered without their spinning attack move and headbutt move. They were slow versus infantry and wouldn't attack cavalry.

With their animations restored, the vanilla 21/13 stats and ap make them drastically overpowered even when the shield fix (half into armour, half into defence skill) is introduced. My stats might still be a little low for them, but with these they still bettered a unit of DFKs. Maybe somewhere around the 15/13 or 16/13 mark would be more appropriate...?

I'm interested to hear there's such variation between the ME halberd and the western halberd! How do the expensive Voulgier and Swordstaff units compare? I must admit, my knowledge of the halberd units is relatively poor compared to the various other 2-H units, but my initial impression of fighting against a unit of French Voulgier in the hands of the AI wasn't one of awe.

@Jambo: My point is that the 2-handers are SUPPOSED to beat any sheild unit. This game IS NOT balanced directly on Unit X beats unit Y because it's more expensive than unit Y. (IMHO of course).

The point is that 2-Handers are supposed to beat any other infantry, (pikes aside), silly, but are very vulnrable to cav charges and missile fire. DFK SHOULDN'T be beating DEK at all in my opinion. DGK or JHI is another matter of course.

Of course your free to do things how you want, but their does seem to be a general consensus amongst Foz, Dopp, and a fair few others, that in general 2-Handers arn't supposed to be beaten by S&S units. Of course what was really intended we don't know. But theirs defintlly some complex balance mechanics happening if you leave 2-handers at defualt stats. Sure DEK/DNK/DPK and English Bill are pretty badly priced. But so are most working pikes, and to a degree a few other units. Theirs just so many bugs in the game it impossible for anything working to be properly priced. but it's only really badly out of whack with a handful of units.

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I'm interested to hear there's such variation between the ME halberd and the western halberd! How do the expensive Voulgier and Swordstaff units compare? I must admit, my knowledge of the halberd units is relatively poor compared to the various other 2-H units, but my initial impression of fighting against a unit of French Voulgier in the hands of the AI wasn't one of awe.

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I would say they are terribile. They have a poor hacking animation and poor stats. They are also gimped with bad resistance to flanking attacks. they are outperformed by S&S, 2-Handers, AND Pikes of both similar and worse stats. Eastern units don't have Phalanx formation so they have the fast hack animation. Phalanx seems to slow em down a bit animation wise and they don't have the best animations to begin with.

Western halberd units (including Voulges, but not bills surprisingly), have the spear wall formation, just like pikemen. Their animation set includes a 'primary' halberd that pokes like a pike for the initial contact, and a 'secondary' halberd that hacks things apart. I think switching out their animations for something else might spoil their spear wall a bit.

Part of the reason why they don't do well is because they don't keep their enemies at a distance with the spear wall and so get hacked to pieces by sword and board soldiers who have better fighting skills, better armor (even after AP is taken into account) better morale, faster animations, and shields. Of course neither do vanilla pikes, who are even more disadvantaged as they have no AP or any of the other weapon bonuses when they draw their puny swords. The spear wall is the only reason they are competitive at all; without it they are simply weak unarmored axemen/swordsmen which frankly speaking don't cut it against DFK and up. Pikes are supposed to stay in spear wall historically, so people feel justified in modding them so they hold spear wall better and longer. Halberds, on the other hand, just don't look right poking like pikemen beyond the initial charge (believe me, they own if you remove their 'secondary' weapon too, but are then nothing more than AP pikemen), so making them hold spear wall longer is out of the question. The problem is then how to make them competitive in normal melee without the spear wall to hold enemies at arm's length, which is an uphill task. Being rather unarmored and just militia for the most part, it would look funny if they started pwning DFK and such, or worse still, DGK. Not sure what to do with them. They are a sort of hybrid unit that doesn't do anything particularly well.

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Originally Posted by Carl

The point is that 2-Handers are supposed to beat any other infantry, (pikes aside), silly, but are very vulnrable to cav charges and missile fire. DFK SHOULDN'T be beating DEK at all in my opinion. DGK or JHI is another matter of course.

Of course your free to do things how you want, but their does seem to be a general consensus amongst Foz, Dopp, and a fair few others, that in general 2-Handers arn't supposed to be beaten by S&S units.

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I agree and that's why my post said, that even with the reduced stats I gave to the overpowered DEKs, they still beat the DFKs which is correct. My point was that 21/13 plus ap is excessive and it's the margin by what they beat the DFKs which is silly.

Couldn't the western halberds, voulgiers and swordstaff just be designed like the eastern halberds? I.e. remove their phalanx ability if that's the feature that's holding them back?

I'm finding the same issue Dopp. I ran some huge unit size tests with Swiss Guard vs. militia Pikes. Whichever side I controlled won (if i turned Guard Mode off on the Pikes. Swiss Guard don't seem to care). The biggest issue was the losses. Even if Swiss Guard won they took 50% losses. But if I controlled the Pikes the pikes sufferd almost no losses. It's that damm Guard Mode Bug.

I also re-tried the test with Swiss Guard modified to have the same number of men per unit as the Pikes and they now Beat the Pikes regardless of who I controlled. But whilst they only suffered about 25% losses when I controlled the Swiss Guard, they suffered nearly as many losses as the Pikes when I controlled the Pikes. Regardless of unit size, Pike Militia beat Halberd Militia, even if I controlled the Halberds.

I agree that turning them into AP Pikes or ordinary 2-Handers should be avoided is possible as it's their Hybrid Nature that makes the unique. The problem is they try to be a 2-Hander that more resistant to Cav charges and Pikes, but at the cost of speed and Flank/Rear charge resistance. They currently fail badly as they don't have the stats or animation to fight as 2-handers, or the Animation to take on Pikes, or the numbers to take on Pikes/Cav.

As to them beating Pro Soildiers. I don't really have any issues with Militia Pike/2-Handers/Hybrids beating S&S infantry as thats very decidedly what they are supposed to be strong against. On the other hand I would have issues if they where beating other2-handers/Pikes that where of similar era, cost and who where Pro.

On thing I want to try is giving Western Halberds the Highly_Trained ability as Pikes have it and so do JHI and JHI perform well above stats, and I think this has a lot to do with it TBH.

You could be right on an animation fix not working, I havn't had chance to try, but i'll give it a whirl.

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I agree and that's why my post said, that even with the reduced stats I gave to the overpowered DEKs, they still beat the DFKs which is correct. My point was that 21/13 plus ap is excessive and it's the margin by what they beat the DFKs which is silly.

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Woops, sorry i though you said that DFK should be beating DEK. Sorry. I still maintain that DFK shouldn't really be doing much to DEK though. DEK are more the equivelent of Dismounted Chivalric Knights, Dismounted Conquistidors, and Dismounted Christian Guard, Noble Swordsmen. All of whom seem to inflict 25-30% losses on the DEK before going down. Era, Cost and Stats all determine how they balance up in reality. DEK are avalibile very late on in the tech tree compared to Dismounted Fuedal Knights.

Good news and Bad News:

THE GOOD:

The ME_Halberd_Militia Animation looks fine on 2HS units. In fact I could baerly tell the diffrance even when up close, (I pitted Zwei Handlers with their defualt Animation up against Highland Nobles with the ME_Halberd_Militia animation), and is signifficantly more powerful. Balance between Fixed 2-Handers and 2HS should easilly be restored now.


THE BAD:

Dopp was right, the Eastern Halberd Militia Animation dosen't work on Western Halberds. It even Creates Crashes if you take them out of Spearwall and they won't fight at all in it.

Back to the drawing Board their then.

Good stuff, except that I wonder if we have the wrong idea about what halberds should be doing. Halberds appear lower on the barracks tree than pikes. I'm not sure they are supposed to be better or to beat pikes at all. I now think they are supposed to be the missing link between spearmen and pikemen.

Good stuff, except that I wonder if we have the wrong idea about what halberds should be doing. Halberds appear lower on the barracks tree than pikes. I'm not sure they are supposed to be better or to beat pikes at all. I now think they are supposed to be the missing link between spearmen and pikemen.

You could be right Dopp. The trouble is even peasents are beating Halberd Militia, (western), thats pretty bad, I suspect most good spears (like Italian Spear Militia), could beat them too.

Lets not forget just how good Swiss Guard are statswise. They may well be in the middile ground between the 2, but currently perform better that Papal Guard only really against high end S&S units, (because the Halberds have AP), and against Cav.

Yeah they do need a buff, I'm just wondering if pike militia is a good test unit for them.

Pike Militia wasn't the only test i ran TBH. Also did Bazantyine Infantry, DFK, and Bill Militia. They got beat by all 3 but did best vs. Bill Militia, (this was with Halberd Militia BTW). DFK and Bazantyine Infantry where both very decisive losses. I didn't try them vs. spears TBH, but i'd expect a close win vs. anything but papal Guard/Dismounted Saphi Lancers TBH.

The real worry I have with buffing them is that if I go too far it will bork auto-calc badly.

I'll try and see what happens though.