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Thanks Kalle, that’s great!
I just finished completely rebuilding the CWC message board from scratch.
The Valour One Tourney forums are there but bare, but you can still Sign Up you Clan Team, or yourself as a Mercenary if you wish, at any time.
The long way:
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/
The short way:
http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540
Have started on the Rules, and should have them up tomorrow morning (read noon) :charge:
Hmm i still think it needs a little work to be really good, 0val inf upgrades or val 2 mulisha inf are a must basicly the armys dont work imo u get a few great units but then your left with an odd amount of cash that u cant spend that u could put on upgrades to make up a usefull unit in your army.:help:
Apart from that the rules are ok just need a little something to sort it out.:idea2:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
[QUOTE=AggonyLion] 0val inf upgrades QUOTE]
"0val inf, Wep shield upgrades"
Dont worry about it Leo, lets get it started, I am eager!!! Next fridays session I hope will be a tourneymatch.
Kalle
yep lets do it was good to play at least 3v3 aggs v aggs lol, i had a good army, and one not so good, cough,
good to see Gawain and Shields come to play :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
Hey,
Master Tomisama, The King Has Praise you for giving him the Gift of the ArmyBuilder. I shall Pass it along to my Ronin Team.
I bow
:yes:
Thanks Wars :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
Now everyone,
Please understand that all of the above was "discussion" in preparation for this Contest.
The official Valour One Tournament Rules were posted today, and are ready for your evaluation.
http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540
Any further discussion should be presented on the Valour One Discussion forum.
Sign Up is also open and waiting :wink:
:charge:
Thank you Tomi :bow:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
Woot!!!! ~:thumb:
Why the sudden allowing of weapons/armour upgrades?
It wasn’t sudden :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
I considered the possibility of allowing non valour upgrades for a good 24 hours.
My original thought was that these upgrades could be abused, so left them out.
But then there was the problem of wasted money, and how important getting every florin spent can be to fair game play.
I figured that with the weight that each unit brings to the field with the valour one format, that upgrades would probably not make that much difference without infringing on the low 7k budget.
Also non valour upgrades don’t raise the morale of the unit, and no matter how well armed or shielded your troops are, it is morale that keep them in the fight :wink:
I could be wrong, but my instincts are telling me it wont be a problem.
While I am doing some explaining, a word about the strength of cavalry at valour one.
Knights should be overpowering :knight:
The armored knight was the tank of the medieval period, and were to be avoided by all but other mounted knights.
There is a chance for abuse here also. But the cost of the valour one knight is self limiting.
Again I could be wrong, but again my instincts are telling me that it wont be a problem.
Do you have a specific disagreement with adding the upgrades?
We can talk about it up to the point when matches are assigned :yes:
Hey,
I did some Pratice MTW games with one of my Ronin Teammates today, Some 9K games (Tomi met him btw :D), then I hurry off and went back to 7K, as I forgot it was 7K
But even still. We was able to pick some good 5-6K armies, but we had anywhere from 260-630K left and He told me personallly that the Rule of Upgrading Armor and such needed to be added in. Good Idea imo.
Those rules seem good. For those who need the extra possibility to spend money allowing the upgrades is good (I got no problem spending it on a straight val one though :clown: ).
Since every unit still must be val 1 I dont think it can be used in a balancewrecking way. Upgrading to much on weapon or armour will make the rest of the army to weak.
Kalle
Five Clan groups have Signed Up in the first few days.
Not sure how many Teams that means yet :grin:
But if you want a piece of this, we need to hear from you, as soon as possible.
http://p219.ezboard.com/fclanwars354...opicID=1.topic
If you are an individual player who would like to participate, please don’t hesitate to post your availability.
There may be Teams looking for Mercenaries, or other individual players you can band up with (has happened).
It won’t be long until we get going.
:charge:
I think Aggony have not posted the sign in yet but we will asap.
Kalle
do we sign for Aggony , >? or do we leave that to Shields our emissary even tho i dont think he is participating
Hi guys,
7k sounds good to me ^_^ I've always thought it provided better balance than 10k.
I'd love to play but my clan is pretty inactive these days. Can anyone adopt me temporarily?
hey buu. RTK may be interested in some mercenaries. i'll keep you updated.
i still use that buukenshin mod, btw. :-)
Sorry. Dont care for these rules in the least. To much restraint. Why allow v1 Heavy cav? v0 was much better with anti cav at v1. Just my 2 cents. In fact I despise these rules.
The idea is to raise the price of cav closer to where it should be relative to the infantry. A cav should be at least 2x the cost of the infantry that beats it to account for the higher mobility of the cav. It doesn't achieve that because the spears weren't put back to the cost they had in MTW v1.0 as we requested, but it's closer than leaving cav at v0 while the spears have to go to v1 just to have enough morale to make them usable. I realize now that the people who play MTW/VI regularly don't care if spears are usable. You could remove them from the game, and it wouldn't matter to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Thats the reason I dont like the v1 rules. Are you telling me that V1 Chiv Knights wont destroy V1 spears? That V0 Chivs wouldnt have a harder time? Isnt vo chivs vs V1 spears better? Which makes spears more vialble?Quote:
but it's closer than leaving cav at v0 while the spears have to go to v1 just to have enough morale to make them usable. I realize now that the people who play MTW/VI regularly don't care if spears are usable. You could remove them from the game, and it wouldn't matter to them.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
v1 Orderfoot cost 680 have 5 melee + 2 shield + 5 anti-cav + 3 rank = 15 combat points vs cav and 10 vs inf.
v1 Chiv Knights cost 1147 have 12 melee = 12 combat points.
v1 Chiv Man-at-Arms cost 425 have 9 melee + 1 shield + 1 bonus vs spears = 10 combat points vs cav and 11 vs spears.
The orderfoot are 3 combat points better than the chiv knight which is 1.2**3 = 1.7 times better as long as they are at least 3 ranks deep. The chiv knight is 2 combat points better than the cmaa which is 1.2**2 = 1.4 times better plus you have the charge bonus which will get you about 10 kills on contact. The cmaa are 1 combat point better than the orderfoot which is 1.2**1 = 1.2 times better.
Those numbers do not show the complete truth. Id prefer a chiv knight val 1 in my army over a val 1 orderfoot any day.
The point of the rule is that you CANT AFFORD so many chiv knigths (or other heavy cav) as you can if you were allowed to bring them at val 0. That is the whole thing. I am not at all certain this rule will lead to more spears but it will lead to fewer heavy cav.
Another thing. The lower in florin you go the stronger the cavalry gets. The higher in florin you go the stronger the infantry gets. Very simple and very true since the more money you get the more valour goes to infantry.
Look at 10k games. Upgrades are on infantry, cavalry are still val 0. Look at 15k, all u see are val 4 mil sarg, fmaa and cmaa and val 0 or tops val 1 heavy cav. Go even higher and you will start to see spears also.
Kalle
BTW you have still not signed your team up Yuukie?? 7k val 1 is what you wanted or very near it, the allowance of wepaon and armourupgrade can not take away the balance since no one will be able to use it enough at this florin to ruin it.
I wouldn't. I'll have 1147 - 680 = 467 to spend on something else. Besides that, you can't beat my orderfoot with your chiv knight. Even if you do, if you loose more than 24 of your chiv knights doing it, it's not cost effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
The cavalry should be strong. It should obliterate ranged units almost instantly, and it should defeat the sword infantry decisively. The problem with using upgrades is that the swords and ranged units get most of the upgrading and become too strong relative to the cav and spears. This happens because the swords are cheap, and the ranged get discounts on their upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
I've been saying the upgrades break the RPS ever since MTW v1.1 was released. Creative Assembly claims the gameplay is RPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
It will hinder light cav beating ranged units if players put upgrades on the ranged units. You will be seeing a lot more light cav, so that cav had better be able to do the job. Also, armor upgrades on ranged units is not desirable because ranged fire is already weak. Those may not be major issues. I don't know. I just haven't been able to raise a team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
Hunters, Ronin, Heerbann, Cacciatori, White Knights, Aggony, and RTK.
Seven Teams. One more and we go :charge:
P.S. Starting with the current competitions (M2TW and Valor One), Clan Wars will have several new awards. Beyond the Winners and Finalist standard trophies, we are now considering a small signature-ready campaign ribbon for all who participate. And last but certainly not least, we are working on a plan to have the winning Clan elect a Most Valuable Player from their contest Team mates, for special recognition. More on this later :grin:
Well, if the discussion is about saving florin then Ill get the knight at val 0 or with the rules in this tourney I get a val 1 feudal knight, even less combatpoints but id still prefer it over the val 1 spear simply because it is so much more useful and your spear would run before my knights does simply because the person using the cavalry usually decides when and where to strike.Quote:
I wouldn't. I'll have 1147 - 680 = 467 to spend on something else. Besides that, you can't beat my orderfoot with your chiv knight. Even if you do, if you loose more than 24 of your chiv knights doing it, it's not cost effective.
A knight at val 0 or 1 can decide the outcome of the battle, a spear val 1 in mtw-vi usually can not. Sure it might hold a line for a while or win in a frontal fight vs a cav but that is all theory and the situation is not likely to happen. The likely thing is that my val one knight kills you cavalry that must be cheap cavalry since you spent your money on spears and then my cavalry swings to the back of our engaged lines and carries the day.
It becomes even more obvious if you get 3-4 spears and put them in a line and the opponent has equal number of cav positioned in a line opposing urs. Before you can do much about it all the cavalry hits one of your flanks and the spear line will crumble, this also is a theoretical situation but not without connection to what might actually happen in a game.
That being said I do think (and know from experience) that there are tactics that are best done using spears even at low florin games and im sure they can be put to use in this tourney as you tried it vs CBR for instance.
As for putting armour on the missiles taking away the strenght of the light cav I do think it would usually be a waste of money since allready getting 3-4 pavise crossbow or normal crossbow at val 1 in 7k is costly. And even if they have armour they will get tired after exchanging some volleys with opposing missileunits, hold the strike until then :)
Anyways, try get a team together. Buu wants to play for instance and maybe he can bring Cain with him and/or Alexandros.
Kalle
I can only say this; these rules replace the overpowered swords with the overpowered cavs. Simply there is a lack of proper counter units against them now; the spears are both expensive, weak in morale and are very slow in killing the cavalry, while the polearms are plagued by high cost and/or poor morale. Add to this the fact that they're seldom actually able to catch cavalry, and it is hardly surprising that Muslim cavalry armies will most likely rule the battlefield if the player knows what he is doing.
EDIT: But that said, I do like using Muslim cavalry armies. ~;)
It will be intresting to find out....
SEE YOU ON THE FIELD !
oh wait !, i dont have a team yet :S...
but really, if u want some proper unit balance in the medieval era we should totally play Dux mod ;)
If you take a feudal knight (722), I'll take a chiv seargeant (510).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
orderfoot/chiv knight = 680/1147 = .59 with a 3 combat point advantage.
chiv sarg/chiv knight = 510/1147 = .44 with a 2 combat point advantage.
chiv sarg/feud knight = 510/722 = .70 with a 4 combat point advantage.
feud sarg/feud knight = 340/722 = .47 with a 1 combat point advantage.
The chiv sargeant has lower morale, but they do work. They even worked at v0 in 5k mtw/vi games. You can get the morale back with a feudal sargeant, and it's 20% stronger in combat than the feudal knight for less than half the cost. The 1 combat point advantage of the FS is on the attack value while the 4 combat advantage of the CS is all on the defend value, so the FS will kill cav 20% faster than the CS and the same rate as the OF. The FS will loose a lot more men.
Admittedly, it's nowhere near the YS/HC 400/1200 = .33 with a 4 combat point advantage of spears in Samurai Wars. It has become apparent that 99% of the players around here don't want that kind of gameplay anyway.
Mobility should cost something, and when you can take cav at v0 in 10k mtw/vi games it isn't costing anything relative to a spear which needs upgrades to compete with the upgraded swords. It's not theory that the spears win in a frontal fight at equal valor. You can prove it with tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
The tactical problem is to get the spears matched up with the cav. Assuming equal money spent on ranged units, the army with no spears can have better cav than the army that contains spears. However, the army that contains spears can have better swords. For example:
CK (1147) + FMAA (297) + FMAA (297) = 1741
FK (722) + OF (680) + CMAA (425) = 1827
It's not quite equal cost, but it's close. Since weapon and armor upgrades are allowed, the player with the two FMAA can put +1 weapon on one of the FMAA making it equal to a CMAA but with less morale.
CK (1147) + FMAA (297) + FMAA + 1W (396) = 1840
FK (722) + OF (680) + CMAA (425) = 1827
The player with the CMAA could switch it to FMAA + 1W, but the 29 saved might not be enough to be useful. I don't think you'd want more than 2 OF because you won't be seeing more than 2 CK even from someone who is hell bent on going with a cav/sword army.
Clearly the CMAA will beat the FMAA, the FK will beat the FMAA + 1W and the OF will beat the CK. The main difficulty is getting the OF matched up with the CK. The OF has to react to the movement of the CK, and has to be close enough to engage the CK if it goes after the FK or the CMAA. The player who takes spears has to be a reactive counterattacking type of player who doesn't mind conceeding the initiative to the other player. Also, you clearly have to manage 3 different types of melee units rather than the 2 different types of regular mtw/vi 10k.
The cav has the initiative because it has higher mobility than the spear, but the spear can rotate fast enough to prevent the cav from flanking it. The spear has to avoid getting locked up with a sword so that it's available to counter cav.
Making a spear line of that can be pinned by enemy swords is not a good tactic. The enemy cav will most likely come around the flanks and win. Spears would be best used to defend the flanks, but the enemy can send his swords to the flank and the spear player has to have a response to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
I favored the OF, but CBR favored the CS when we were playing the 5k games. The CS is more cost effective, but I prefer the stronger unit since you can use it more aggressively. Above 6k CBR wouldn't take spears, and he demonstrated very clearly to me in several MP battles that the spears were not viable when playing with more than 6k using upgrades. CBR thinks the gameplay is still too far out of balance even with the all v1 rule. I'm not so sure about that, but then again I used 4 spears all through MTW v1.1 and well into VI. It took me a long time to give up on the spears, and then I tried very hard substituting swiss halberdiers. I was even using 4 swiss halberdiers in the finals of the mtw/vi cwc 4v4 against the Silents, but they only succeeded in the first battle and then they started using vikings to kill the halberdiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
You're probably right. I just don't know how cheaply they can get it with the discount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
Hey,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
good idea Tomi..:yes: :beam:
I think it's good for teams that don't win the CWC tournment or be a finalist to at least get a ribbon or something to say "Hey,at least we was in CWC and had fun.."
:yes: :yes: