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Very exciting, extreme right vs. extreme left in France with ~85% turnout. Seems like a raw deal either way. I really hope France pulls out of its socialist daze. So many with talent and desire to achieve are leaving and their home economy is due to be surpassed by places like East Timor, Lichtenstein, and Sealand.
Msr. Sarkozy isn't extreme right. He's right-wing, but not extreme. That would be Msr. Le Pen. From an American perspective, I think Msr. Sarkosy would be described 'Moderate to Conservative Democrat".
I heard an interesting theory this morning on NPR that predicts a Madam Royale win. Not based on her own merits as the next president, or a new French love affair with socialism, but with a "Anybody but Sarkozy" push. It's always sad when politics devolves to this, but it does tend to be effective. In our last presidential election, both sides adopted this tactic pretty much from the conventions on. It was my main reason for voting for Bush (please, no eggs or rotten vegetables today...)
In any case, please allow me to offer a most sincere and profound congratulations to the French people. 85% of your elegible electorate showing up for an election would be miraculous beyond all bounds of reason here in the USA. Say what you want about French disaffection with the process, you certainly trumped the patriotic Americans (I think we set a record this past election with 65%).
Well, yeah, the "Anybody but Sarkozy" strategy isn't new. All our Extreme-Left candidate announced a while ago that they don't want Sarko to rule the country (ie. they ask their voters to support Ségolène), which is quite exceptionnal, as AFAIK, they did not even bothered to say that in 2002, when it was Chirac vs. Le Pen (but then, it was a no brainer that Chirac was going to win by far).Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
It was even proposed before the first turn. A few important figures frow the Parti Socialiste said that Royal and Bayrou should work together against Sarkozy.
Well, actually, it would be more like 75%, as it is estimated that more or less 10% of the population that should be able to vote isn't registered on the electoral lists. Still, I'm glad that so many people decided to vote yesterday. I don't have much faith in politics, but it's nice to see that a lot of people still actually care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
As Don said, Sarkozy isn't from extreme right. He's fairly right-minded on some issues (ie. immigratio), but that doesn't make him a far-right nutjob, even if the left is trying to enforce this opinion ("Sarko, facho, le peuple aura ta peau"and so on). I'm pretty sure you would call him a liberal euro-whinie after some of his speeches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
As for Ségolène, if don't know where she stands, but certainly not on the far left. If it wasn't for the old socialist crew behind her, she would still be praising Blair. AFAIK, Blair isn't a far leftist, except maybe for an american conservative.
Whom did you vote for, Meneldil? And will you vote Sarko or Ségo now? I'm still undecided. ~:mecry:
Bayrou did well. Shame he didn't make it. Un the upside, the UDF will be taken more seriously from now on. There's a centre to be reckoned with.
Which is mainly their exit comment. Did they "invite" their supporters to reject Sarko?Quote:
There's a centre to be reckoned with.
We'll make you eat those words. :knight:Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmaster Horus
No, there's no voting advice from Bayrou yet. He did flirt with an anti-Sarko front last week, but that was before the election.Quote:
Did they "invite" their supporters to reject Sarko?
Thinking about it a bit more, I might vote Sarko just to spite the left, who refused to vote strategically for Bayrou, their best anti-Sarko hope. :shame:
Is that a threat? I'm all behind Bayrou!Quote:
We'll make you eat those words
Oops. :beam: :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmaster Horus
A bit late to link to now, but I stumbled on this BBC series of articles that were made in the run-up to the election: 'France versus the World'. Here you go, the reason why natural progressives like me feel compelled to vote rightwing lunatics just to get some action going:
Quote:
A poll recently conducted by an American university sent shock waves through the Finance Ministry in Paris. Researchers found that only just over a third of French people think a free market economy is the best system to develop the country.
By way of contrast, the survey found that a majority of citizens in 19 other countries were in favour of the free market, including 65% of Germans, 59 % of Italians, 66% of the British and 74 % of the Chinese. Even the Russians, many of whom have suffered in a painful transition to a market economy, were more favourable at 43%.
In a bar outside the National Library in Paris, I met two students, Laurent and Florence who told me globalisation is "scandalous" because it often means French jobs are lost to poorer countries with lower wages and harsher working conditions.
"I think globalisation today is the modern equivalent of the slave trade across the Atlantic Ocean," says Laurent. "I am for human globalisation, but I am against the capitalist economic system and I think we need to make capitalism history."
[...]
For Philippe Bloch, who set up a French chain of coffee shops, the main problem is over-zealous employment legislation. He protests that the Code du Travail, the book of labour laws, which runs to 2800 pages, is "bigger than the Bible".
Sick of state meddling, he says he may start his next venture in America.
"I'm not quite sure I want to re-invest the same amount of energy and effort and money in an economy that does not want me to create jobs.
"I think France has the unemployment it deserves, France has chosen unemployment. We have chosen to pay jobless people benefits to keep the peace."
[...]
"Three quarters of young people believe, in France, that they are going to live less well than their parents.
"How can you expect a society to be dynamic, entrepreneurial and optimistic if they feel they are going to live worse in the future?"
This is what socialism does. I appreciate France for doing this, now I can refer to it anytime I want to give an another example of how socialism has ridiculously failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
That is extremely scary that only slightly over 33% France's population believes in a free market.
No way dude, socialism works! Just look at Venezuela. :sombrero:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
This result is good enough for me. I am surprised that Royal got such a high number of votes given the competition left and center. As was to be expected Sarkozy has gone for the personal attacks almost immediately last night, which is bad strategy if you want to conquer centre votes. Over 15% of voters are undecided for the second round. This leaves Madame enough room to put up a good fight.
For nobody*. I thought about voting for Bayrou, as a protestation vote, but then, the UDF dude from my university is so stoopid that he made me hate everything related to Bayrou.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
It's also likely what I'm going to do for the second turn.
This has been published a while ago in France. I don't find it that weird. As long as we'll see things like Noel Forgeard leaving EADS with 8.4 millions of €, while 10K people are going to be fired because he screwed up everything he has done, people will think capitalism sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Mind you, I'm not some left-wing nutjob, but while I'm not against capitalism and free-market, I think it has huge flaws, and I'm glad at least one nation on Earth is not just accepting these flaws like some brainwashed sheeps.
Jean-Pierre, is that you!? I knew you were! :idea2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
It's me, Eric! :jumping:
Bravo. The French exception is very welcome in Europe for political as well as cultural reasons. It is something of a beacon in a sea of free market stupidity. France has always had an interventionist state which created great infrastructure projects in public sectors like transport, energy, aeronautics, etcetera. The notion of French stagnation is nonsense. There are problems, sure, but France has gone through a period of tremendous liberalisation in banking, telephony, air traffic or the electronics industry, to name but a few. Anyone want to compare the health of Renault and PSA Peugeot Citröen to that of, say, the British car industry? Right - what British car industry? People shouldn't take their cue from a 800 word blurb on a BBC site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Do you have any sources to back this up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Also are you arguing that France's economy is in good, healthy shape?
I think you miss my point. There are upsides and downsides to every economic system and strategy. A nation's economic health is measured by the goals and priorities it sets itself. France has always been different in some ways, has always wanted to be different, and it has done a remarkable job going against the flow of free marketism in order to stay different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Sure, there are problems. The French labour market for instance has problems adjusting to the China norm - but hey, which western labour market hasn't? And the French have also scored huge labour market successes. Because of the relative rigidity of the labour market, French employers had to invest in productivity; as a result French labour productivity is now among the highest in the world. And the number of unemployed has been quite high for a while now, but even the jobless have health coverage and enjoy what is probably the best health service in the world. The same goes mutatis mutandis for French education.
All these elements are interwoven. You can't just pick out some random criterium, look at it without context and go 'Oooh, the French have only got 1,9% growth in 2007, what a mess they're in.' You see, compared to China's ten percent annual GDP growth we are all lagging. But Chinese society in lagging behind ours in all respects for the same reason: the majority are still dirt-poor and their wages, housing, health care, education and public services suck.
This is all off the top of my head. I don't have time to play the numbers game, interesting as it may be. If you are really interested in that country you can help yourself to books, newspaper articles and websites all over the place. And if you do, one thing you will discover is that French state intervention or dirigisme has nothing to do with socialism. It was a right-wing post-war policy.
Hmm, after some research, the French don't appear as socialist at I initially thought. Still, in IMHO, the government plays to large of role in the lives of its people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
The main issue I have with the how the French system works is the 35 hour work week, the 10% (Extremely high) unemployment rate, and odd labor contracts.
EDIT: Changed 39 to 35. 39 was the number before they lowered the max amount.
If you want to see some really weird and odd labor contracts check out the railroad, and I would image its the same for about any railroad throughout the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Go Sarkozy. This is all so amusing, just when the socialists almost convinced France that Sarkozy is the new Hitler Le Pen calls him an immigrant :laugh4: I bet Sarkozy would be willing kiss him for that, I wonder if Le Pen is really stupid or really smart :laugh4:
I don't live in France, but we have an official 37 or 37h week. It's really not as bad as you Americans makes it sound. It's mostly there to protect manual labourers who can get serious health issues if they have to work for too long. I'd say it's influence on office workers is negligable. Don't forget we work *harder* here, productivity in Europe is far higher than in the US. I've been to places where people worked several jobs, and my main conclusion is that they can do that because they don't work very hard in any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Consider the Japanese, who work the longest hours in the world, yet aren't that productive, all things considered. I believe a Scandinavian country even experimented with six hour work days, and productivity hardly dropped. People can only keep concentrated for so long. Long hours aren't always better, it's what you can do in the time you've got.
Now, this is for 'normal' employees, it doesn't apply to people who have their own business or 'executives', which includes just about everyone with a decent engineering or economics degree. These people work on a project and aren't payed by the hour, so 12h work days are still (a little too often) a reality for those with ambition. Okay, as long as they're working for someone else they get plenty of days off (minimum is 20, engineers in the chemical industry get 38 normally), but like with the shorter work days, those more often than not improve average performance. It's a well known fact that most ideas (in product development) are submitted right after the holiday season, or after a vacation.
And finally (though I must have forgotten something) people who work for small businesses, like shops etc. often are expected to do a few unpayed extra hours if the job requires it. This is pretty much expected.
As for France being an example of failure: huh ??? They certainly have their problems, especially in the banlieu, but those places aren't any worse than a good old US ghetto I'd say (knowing neither personally). What other problems are you referring too ? The standard of living certainly isn't bad, and don't forget that the French often care more about the quality of life than about something objective like the standard of living. Du pain, du vin, du Camembert...
I think he is quite devious, but in this case I believe the remark was a sign of desperation. And it didn't work since most of Le Pen's own electorate has gone over to Sarkozy. His pied noir approach is out of touch with a new generation of potential Lepenistes who are more law-and-order than racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Isn't it nice to have a real alternative? Maybe the last generation was mostly law and order as well. Not Le Pen, seems obvious enough, but a lot of his voters.
OK, I write quickly from work. Because I change from BT to Talk Talk I am now out of internet at home. So, as soon I will recover access I will participate. For the moment being, I just read.
I hope things will be better before second round.
I was quite surprise of Ségolène success... Sarkozy did good in taking from the extreme-right, but I still don't trust him. Bayrou will ally with the Right, like I thought, no surprise.
Just a comment about anti-Sarkozy front: the poepel who ask me five years ago to vote for them in the name of the Anti-La Pen Front should not be surprise when some others used the same tactic.
And Chirac (and his minister of Interior Sarkozy) quickly forget what they owned the Lefties Republicans. So now, to play "I have no hate" and "why so much hate?", just check in your memory mate!!!
A bit OT, but how many of you have surfed the org during working time? :devilish: :sneaky:Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
:stop: Stop. Are you mad? I'd really like to see numbers on that. You really can't lump Europe into one big ball like that and I'm sure your numbers are off.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
No this is true, it isn't that we work harder though, just more efficiently I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Good to see an 85% turnout, puts my fellow countrymen to shame.:shame:
Here's an interesting site, Human Development Index that reflects how different countries utilize their wealth.Quote:
Don't forget we work *harder* here, productivity in Europe is far higher than in the US
So Europe is comprised of only Norway, Sweden and Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
here you can take a look at some OECD numbers for 2005
In terms of GDP/hour worked the US is actually better than the EU on average. It should be noted though that France is slightly better than the US.
Human development isn't the same thing as economical productivity, it's just how much is put back, and Norway Sweden and (you meant Iceland?) put back most. They aren't stupid, shorter working times -> more people at work -> more overall wealth a person, and their economies are very healthy. European economies are more advanced when it comes to productivity a person, but it's probably mostly logistics which is somewhat easier for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir