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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Considering AI captains can fight night battles if they are attacking, doesn't seem to be bound by the agent limit, does not lose troops to desertion on crusades/jihad, can get adoptions of captains in the field instead without battles and a few other things I noted in the buglist, I am sorry to break your heart.
Want some glue?
There's just too many pieces :no:
But still, you didn't say that the AI gets morale bonuses on higher difficulties and that was my main gripe.
Although having said that, there is something weird going on. While waiting for this patch I decided to start a new game on RTW and I found the battles so incredibly easy compared to MTW2 even though I play them both on hardest. Even if the AI doesn't get morale bonuses in MTW2, something makes it trickier. :2thumbsup:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
strongly disagree; I remember doing a clone of dune 2 with a high school friend(we were 15 - he did most of the work) which had a decent ai. Obviously strongly limited by the processing power required for backtracking that the pcs of that time had(we were on something like... 286 processor and the responses had to be more or less real time) and having no graphics bar some X representing the units. Mind you - decent is very different from very good; but was decent.
All you need is getting someone specialized in... ai. Yes, there are books about that, there are bits of code about that; heck, there are even university courses about it... It's a very specialized part of programming. But in a team of 6-7 ppl., definitelly if you develop a strategy game, a guy with solid background in this field is a must.
You don't need a good programmer, you need a good programmer in THAT specific field. Developing a good graphical engine and studying the way reflections are optimally implemented and doing ai implementation are like apple and carrots. Your engine developer genius is perfectly useless for ai design.
The ai should definitelly cheat on higher levels; an obviously thing is that you start with way less resources... which is a huge advantage for the opponent. But also, definitelly, should be abit improved too.
Don't get me wrong... I was never very good in this particular field(ai), nor did I read anything about the subject for over 8-10 years. However, I find it hard to believe that in all this time no progress whatsoever was recorded. I remember that, when I was hired, it was a constant request for cvs on any new project acquired, exactly in order to convince the client that we have the ppl. needed for it. I'm willing to bet any ammount that, in the cvs of those ppl. at novalis(the developer of HoMM5), there's noone with even the remote knowledge about artificial intelligence.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
I remember playing games on my ancient TRS-80 (which still runs, btw), with the amazing upgrade from 4K of memory to 16K---man you could conquer the world with that baby! Some of the games (which came on cassette tapes---pre floppy drives) didn't work worth a damn, though---Although Temple of Apshai worked pretty well, the sequel, Hellfire Warrior would always crash at some point so I was never able to finish it. There was a pretty good Godzilla game (unlicensed, I'd guess) that would only play for a little while before it would crash too. What I wouldn't have given 25 years ago for a patch for those games!!
OK, I've just made myself feel really, really old. :inquisitive:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by gardibolt
I remember playing games on my ancient TRS-80 (which still runs, btw), with the amazing upgrade from 4K of memory to 16K---man you could conquer the world with that baby! Some of the games (which came on cassette tapes---pre floppy drives) didn't work worth a damn, though---Although Temple of Apshai worked pretty well, the sequel, Hellfire Warrior would always crash at some point so I was never able to finish it. There was a pretty good Godzilla game (unlicensed, I'd guess) that would only play for a little while before it would crash too. What I wouldn't have given 25 years ago for a patch for those games!!
OK, I've just made myself feel really, really old. :inquisitive:
OK folks. Who let grandpa use the computer again??? :hide:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by Whacker
As someone pointed out earlier, think it was Foz, given today's technology and the power of your average home PC, you won't get an AI that's truly capable of challenging the human mind. As such you have to throw the AI a bone and give them some wiggle room to even the playing field a bit. The problem I most often see is the lack of scaling when it comes to this "cheating", in that I think as difficulty is increased, the more acceptable it is to let the AI "cheat". Less difficulty, the more even the playing field should be.
With difficulty, I think the AI should become more aggressive on higher levels, but not cheat.
Thats a big no-no for me, as I want to fight someone who plays realistically and fair.
I can live with the AI starting with more florins than I on higher difficulty though, but not with stuff I listed above for instance.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
sounds like we arent the only ones teed off about CAs progress it seems sega is somewhat concerned as well:applause:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by mad cat mech
sounds like we arent the only ones teed off about CAs progress it seems sega is somewhat concerned as well:applause:
What makes you say that?
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
This discussion has been had before (even here) but as someone who's worked a bit (and will be working again) on a large-scale PC strategy game, here's a thing or two about AI.
Only now, after decades of specialized programming for this one puropse, do we have a computer -- built to do this one thing -- that can beat the world's best chess player without cheating.
Chess is (programatically) a game with simple rules. The number of possible moves and outcomes is small enough such that people can (and do) memorize entire games.
Now look at Go. Chess is based on branch prediction -- that is, the computer being able to predict with some degree of accuracy 'six moves down the line, if I do all of these things, the other guy is most likely to do that but somewhat likely to do that, so perhaps I should interject this defensive move before move #4, but then will that change the probability for move #7...)
Go is based on on something like the inverse of that -- instead of following one or two paths 30+ moves down the line, it has to follow dozens of paths one or two steps down the line, because of the way the game works.
Consequently, computerized Go lags behind Computerized Chess, because computers are great at branch prediction and less great at what Go requires (I don't know if it has a catchy name.)
Now take a game like MTW2. Could you even describe your first ten moves with any degree of accuracy? Could you describe 10 moves late in the game? The sheer number of variables and 'stuff' that can happen is such that a computer simply cannot, even with a really good AI programmer, match the human brain's ability to adapt to a frequently changing, complex situation.
In fact, given the number of things that MTW2 has to do, I'm impressed that the AI does as well as it does. This is the first TW game where I can play on Normal and have to really try in some tactical battles because there's a good chance I might lose. I'm certainly not the best TW player here (or anywhere near it) but that's quite an accomplishment in my book.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
check out the latest .com blog
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Its just a blog entry by the guy who visits the CA offices for SEGA. I met him at the Gold Code day. It's part of his job to go down regularly.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Okay just read it. Didn't get the impression of anyone being "teed off".
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by Aquitaine
This discussion has been had before (even here) but as someone who's worked a bit (and will be working again) on a large-scale PC strategy game, here's a thing or two about AI.
Only now, after decades of specialized programming for this one puropse, do we have a computer -- built to do this one thing -- that can beat the world's best chess player without cheating.
Chess is (programatically) a game with simple rules. The number of possible moves and outcomes is small enough such that people can (and do) memorize entire games.
Not sure this is a great analogy. The typical PC chess game of 15 years ago could destroy the average user. I don't think we're looking for an AI that can take on Kasparov here.
We'd just like one that doesn't do mind-numbingly stupid things.
Imagine a chess opponent that tries to charge your side with his king...
It seems like there are some relatively simple rules any human player would follow that the AI does not follow. The games is a great game, but it could be much better with better AI.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by dismal
Not sure this is a great analogy. The typical PC chess game of 15 years ago could destroy the average user. I don't think we're looking for an AI that can take on Kasparov here.
His Chess analogy was great. For the record I completely disagree about the average chess game 15 years ago destroying the average user. If you define user as someone who hardly ever plays chess, which 99% of people fall into this category then sure. If you mean the average user as an average chess player, then no way. In fact as I'm typing this I seem to recall an old version of Chessmaster that you could beat in using that one chess setup where you win within 5-6 moves... don't remember what it's called.
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We'd just like one that doesn't do mind-numbingly stupid things.
Imagine a chess opponent that tries to charge your side with his king...
This my friend is called BLUFFING! :grin: :2thumbsup:
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It seems like there are some relatively simple rules any human player would follow that the AI does not follow. The games is a great game, but it could be much better with better AI.
Ahhh... but if you look closely nothing is simple. I do agree though the AI could use some work here and there.
:bow:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by dismal
We'd just like one that doesn't do mind-numbingly stupid things.
Imagine a chess opponent that tries to charge your side with his king...
It's not as simple as that: charging the enemy with your king is a kick butt strategy for the human in every TW game there has ever been. In Shogun, it's what allows your handful of infantry to beat the enemy's handful. Heavy cavalry early in the game is extremely powerful, especially the 2HP regenerating high experience type you get with your TW generals. It's doing it with finesse that is important.
For what it's worth, I haven't noticed much of a problem of suicide generals in M2TW, whereas it plagued STW (many a campaign ends with a Japan full of rebels).
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Actually chess is a good analogy because it is very finite. Everything is a simple grid, movement is limited for each piece, and there is no random factor whatsoever. Two dimensional and non-probabilistic, and it still took us forever to get an AI to beat the best humans.
And for an AI, random probability throws a tremendous amount of complexity into the mix. It's not tough to create a random number generator. It is tough to get an AI to comprehend probability though. Then you get into concepts like threat assessment, anticipation, acceptable loss... fundamentally the game is of a complexity that currently really takes an organic brain to appreciate. And AI's tend to suck at low information decisions involving probability.
This is why I argue that a rodent is the ideal target for AI development. It can maneuver in it's environment gracefully; it can judge whether somethings worth attacking or running away from or is a non-issue; it knows the basics of manipulating objects; it can remember previously successful patterns; and it can on occasion create small innovations. Now we give the rodent access to all the information an expert in whatever it needs to do would know. That leverages the strength of computers in data storage to make that little rodent "brain" know all the theoretically right things to do.
Compiling all the right rules is fine and can be challenging, but after that it just needs a tiny little bit of animal to bring it to life.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Research is way ahead of you JCoyote. They already have rat brain chunks flying modern high-tech military jets: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs...018/brain.html
:2thumbsup:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
I guess the answer to the original question is invariably no, or am I grossly wrong?
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by Whacker
OK folks. Who let grandpa use the computer again??? :hide:
Heh, heh, you young whippersnappers. I'd come after you if I could find my cane and my teeth.....
:laugh4:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by diablodelmar
I guess the answer to the original question is invariably no, or am I grossly wrong?
Aye mate, the answer was no, we didn't get the patch over the weekend. Hopefully we'll have it any second now. :juggle2: :balloon2:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by gardibolt
Heh, heh, you young whippersnappers. I'd come after you if I could find my cane and my teeth.....
:laugh4:
You know there is this particular smiley that I was desperately hoping the Org had that I was going to post instead, but the Org smiley list failed me! I'm working on finding it right now, if I find it I'll put it up here for ya. :grin:
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
to my knowledge they havnt done this until recently and from here on out they are going to be checking on the devs regular. and they apparently are having issues with CA participation in the forums.
"Well I popped over to the CA office in Southwater on Friday. The plan is for me to go down there twice a month just to be in the office, soak up the atmosphere, be more face to face with Mark O’ Connell (SenseiTW) and generally be a pain. So I went down there last Friday for the first time"
"A good bit of scran later and some chit chat about the forums and how we can make it better we headed over to CA’s Horsham office which houses one of the Dev teams….."
its not like they are come out and tell people that yeah we just went over to CA to get them to do better about interacting with the community and to get their act together. they have to be tactful.CA isnt the head of this deal , sega is and when CA isnt listening then some people gonna go up the chain of command and talk to someone who will.
lusted statement is not correct about him going down there on a regular basis. as you can clearly see in the first quote the representative arrived on friday for the first time.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
How's about I drive up there (Brisbane) and deliver an esky of cold ones and tell them to keep up the hard work.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by Skyline Pete
How's about I drive up there (Brisbane) and deliver an esky of cold ones and tell them to keep up the hard work.
Someone's going to have to explain what an esky is... I understand six-pack, 24 pack, back seat of a car filled pack, and keg.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Esky = ice box sought of contraption. google it for a picture.
24 pack = case of beer
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
dont do that until they actually do something worthwhile
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
chess is not the analogy simply because chess play is something at, some ppl., train for years. And as you said, chess programms 10 years ago could beat 99% of the population who doesn't play chess regularly. Which is the SAME thing required from MTW; with the advantage that, contrary to chess, there are no players that train for years at it, there are no clubs and not a thousand of books about it....
There are also a ton of other advantages the computer has in a rts(my main complains are about how ai does in battles - the campaign ai I fully agree is hard to implement):
1. it moves instantly; what it orders really happens. He can't miss double click for single click, he can't forget to press alt when he wants to charge with his archers, so on. He can order all his units in... basically 0 seconds.
2. which is huge: if my militia goes against his militia(same numbers, same xp) I don't know who's unit gonna win and consequently if I have to reinforce my unit or not. I have to always start from the assumption that I might be unlucky.
He knows, because, well... he's the random number generator.In chess, you don't have this huge advantage because there's nothing random in chess.
Randomness actually helps a ton; ok, if the computer "cheats" and knows in advance what will be the result of that. Obviously, you could argue that, in the current implementation, he doesn't know; the idea would be to change the implementation(like - determining the result from the start and then just show the animations) not to complain about how you implemented it.
3. finally, the goal ain't to beat kasparov. On the contrary, the goal is that the human player, after some sweating and some playing, ends by beating the ai on... vh or whatever's the goal of the human.
The average human - not someone who only plays mtw for years on. Noone wants a game that constantly beats them... it sorta defies the purpouse of having fun which is reason why games exist.
It's not about designing another Hydra - for 99% of Elo rated players(not amateur players) Hydra doesn't exist anymore then Kasparov... you probably won't face any of the 2 ever and if you do, you know the result in advance. And chess master provides more then a decent challenge for players. Amateur players - but that's the tw series player base too - we aren't "professional tw players", there's no such concept.
Lastly, mtw is close to chess, not to go. You know his units in advance(before even starting the battle), you watch what he does with them(there are no new units showing up out of the blue in any square of the grid) and respond to his moves. There's no "teleporting"(which ok, is a huge issue when designing an ai).
Also the human player can do a limited ammount of moves in a defined timeframe... which is determined about his ability of handling the mouse(the fact the game is paused or not is perfectly irrelevant - you can calculate your responses done while the game is paused in the background without problems). Problem is if, with the given processing power, you can do enough calculations to respond to his move. It's not about predicting anything; computers are awful at predicting and starting to implement genetics and abilities to "train" your ai are things way over the game developing budgets. Noone expects that. It's about simply responding in a decent manner to the player's moves and calculating x "moves" in advance much like chess. With the advantage over chess that you could know(in a proper implementation) the result of a specific skirmish of 2 units in advance, while the player can't.
By no means I say it's easy, but in a 3 years timeframe or what's an acceptable production cycle... a decent result should be doable. Again, decent... no HydraMTW, but some... chessmaster, even abit worse, since on high lvls chess masters beats almost everyone, and we don't want that.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
Basically an esky is where you put your 24 pack. Australia's greatest contribution to human development. My understanding is that the unipeds and whatnot in areas marked on our maps as "Here be Dragons" refer to the esky as a "cooler". Anyway Brisbane is in Queensland, which means they hate everyone south of them, so I wouldn't drive up there.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
i guess we might as well forget about the patch coming out anytime this week or the next.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
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Originally Posted by mad cat mech
i guess we might as well forget about the patch coming out anytime this week or the next.
Any reason? Im fairly certain it will be out this week and if not, definately the next.
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Re: Any chance we'll have the patch by tonight for this weekend?
everybody who insults CA can leave this forum now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:stop: having a go at the programmers just because they won't release a patch when you want them to. Remember the old saying: "Good Things come to those who wait"
CA created the total war series, and if because their 11GB game is a little buggy in some places then just wait for a patch. The programmers are not exactly gonna give up their weekends ( unless Skyline Pete will go and deliver an esky full of Fosters) to check a patch that they could check on monday.
In the words of the Take That song " Just have a little Patience"