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Evil AI? Matrix: Check. Deus Ex: CheckQuote:
Originally Posted by Phatose
Group of humans fighting it? Deus Ex: Check Matrix: Check
Cybernetics? DX: Check Matrix: Check
The rest of the human race oblivious of the above going on? DX: Check Matrix: Check
There ain't much to cyber punk as a genre. But the Matrix and DX cover the same ground. Just that DX does a crappy job of it, while the Matrix does a good job of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xdeathfire
Great post Caravel
And the AI actually recruits mercenaries too.Quote:
Mercenaries are better handled in RTW than they are in MTW
Neither Icarus nor Daedalus nor Solaris are evil. The villians of the story are MJ12 and Bob Page. The group of resistance fighters are just as similiarly fighting against the very human Page and his cronies. And cybernetics? Come on, those are much, much older then the matrix. Star trek has them.
Beh! That list is... well... not to my taste :)
HL2, CoD, CoH, SimCity 2000, RTW are the only ones I even played from that list, pfff. I would've expected a bunch of other games instead, like the in-the-thread-mentioned Doom, Quake, and such. Something from the C&C series too.
lars, so according to you just because some things have simmilarities, someone must have blatantly copied. The terminator series started in 1984. It has an evil ai (skynet) in which people are fighting against too so through your logic, the matrix must be a blatant copy of the terminator series
There's similarities and there's several nearly identical plot points and characters and very similar art direction. Which is what Deus Ex and the Matrix have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xdeathfire
Your Solaris is evil. The Illuminaty are the good guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatose
Well, I don't think there are too many similarities. The heroes in the Matrix and in DX both wear sort of long black trench coats, it's possible the art team added that in after seeing the Matrix. The sort-of gloomy, dank world in both Matrix and DX and a host of other rip-offs in gaming and film owe their inspiration to an earlier generation of movies like Blade Runner and Alien, so I don't see why DX should be singled out for unoriginality on that score.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
The only other similarity I can think of is that both the heroes of the Matrix and of DX are guided by communication with a remote partner. But this is hardly original either.
Seems to me that the fundamental premises between Matrix and DX are actually highly dissimilar. In Matrix, what you have essentially is a reworking of the idea from the Hindu/Buddhist religions that the world is an illusion, and that if you break through the illusion you can do anything. I mean, it's a blatant rip-off of these religious themes, but very cleverly reworked into an SF storyline.
DX, on the other hand, is more a rehashing of rightwing paranoia about the "evil" United Nations, which the right sees as both corrupt and as a threat to American power (and thereby "freedom").
So the underlying themes of each could scarcely be more different in my opinion.
OK, simple challenge.
Name 3 evil acts any of the AI in DX perpetuate.
Define evil? The pre-merged Icarus AI under Bob Page's control is arguably the tool of the Majestic 12, the game's protagonists. Daedalus is also arguably self-serving, as the construct that Morgan Everett created then lost control of. I don't recall Icarus doing anything directly against you, but it is used to keep an eye on you. Post-merged Icarus/Daedalus becomes self aware and develops a God complex, hence the 3rd ending option to merge with the AI and rule mankind as a "benevolent dictator". Arguably not evil given it's intent and self-justified logic, but I viewed it as such as it's the basic subversion of mankind's right to self-rule. This last bit is the only thing that I think is remotely close to the whole Matrix plot that involves rule of mankind by an AI. Both are certianly dystopian futures, but again that's about all the similarity that I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatose
As Xdeathfire pointed out, the release date of DX and the Matrix were close enough to essentially prove that one was not based on the other. Further, I will offer that the idea of Warren Specter and team adding the whole trenchcoat bit after seeing the Matrix is almost guaranteed to be false, as game would have been nearing completion and testing, so adding something like this would have been a fair amount of work. Also, there were several references throughout the game to JC and Paul wearing trenchcoats as spoken by NPCs, so that smacks to me of more evidence that it wasn't copied. The whole concept of the dystopian future and plot would have long long since been storyboarded and implemented, at the very late development stages you're going to have pretty much nothing but bug squashing, playtesting, and the possible addition/removal of very small features/content/artwork.
Whatever the case, I very much enjoyed both the movie and the game.
Edit - Helios dammit, that's what the merged AI was called. Can't believe I forgot that.
But the actor who did the voicework for JC Denton was clearly inspired by the emotional depth and range of Keanu Reeves. :laugh4:
I can't picture JC Denton saying "PARTY ON DUDES!!!" wearing a WYLD STALLYONS shirt. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Just chiming in to say that lists like these do serve as great sources of controversy and debate - not that controversial debate is bad. From my perspective (opinion), the list isn't bad as it does include some darn good games. Still, for the 25 that are listed, there's easily another 50 that could probably take their place - and the opinionated debate would still continue. That's the way it is...
Good to see that some of the now very outdated games are still recognized for what they were in their hey-day. (Geeeez! Did the graphics in Pirates really look that bad when we were playing it 10 years ago?).
Where is Thief: The Dark Project, as we all know the closest humanity ever came to perfection???? List is flawed :thumbsdown:
Dear god... why does everyone think the Cyberpunk genre began with The Matrix. Sorry folks, it was around a lot longer than that.
Because most who saw the Matrix weren't (or were just) born when Escape from NY, or Blade Runner came out.
I would think of Metropolis being the first (as a movie), a german movie from 1920, which still holds up today. You wouldn't believe the special effects when you compare it to other movies of it's era.
here's a pic;
http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/Metropolis%20robot2.jpg
IMHO...
Any top 25 PC games of All Time that does not include the Wing Commander Series is simply not trying hard enough...
Anyone remember Strike Commander? FlightSim with RPG elements, that was fun...
http://www.answers.com/topic/strike-commander
I used to be an expert in Deus Ex in year 2000. It's just a great game. But you guys are reading way too much into the story of it. Deus Ex never had much of a story, especially after you get to Paris when the whole thing falls apart completely for the rest of the game up to and including the ending (all 3 of them, which all suck, and one of which makes no sense whatsoever).
Originally the game presents Icarus as a big bad evil scary cyborg who is stalking you. Then he turns out to be nothing of significance and really had little to no relevance to the game at all. I was extremely disappointed by that.
That said, Deus Ex does live up to the quote on the back of the box that says it's the closest thing a game has come to imitating reality. Deus Ex does have the most person-like NPCs I've ever seen in a game. That is, they successfully give off the illusion of having lives and reacting to what you say/do or what other NPCs do in the world. It seems much newer games like Oblivion were also going for this, but I would say Deus Ex pulled this aspect off a lot better than Oblivion did. KOTOR is the only other game I can think of that pulled off this concept on a level that is even on par with Deus Ex.
Deus Ex is one of the only great games on that list and certainly probably the only game on that list truly worthy to be called one of the best 25 PC games of all time. But, that is not because it has a great story. It doesn't.
I read Warren Spector saying that he deliberately had the JC Denton voice actor not inject any emotion into JC Denton's voice because he "wanted the player to fill in the emotion". So it's not the actor's fault. The JC Denton actor also did the voice for Paul Denton too, which for those who didn't play it, is a quite different voice entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I thought JC Denton's voice sounded great as is. He's a cyborg, not a poet. His voice fits what he is.
Everyone is complaining about this list.
Then, why you dont create the org list of better games?
Because we don't want a full-scale nuclear-release forum war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius
:bow:
You got the point..
No Freespace 2, and no Alpha Centauri. I believe that alone calls for a mob to descend on IGN and commence the inquisition.
As to the Baldurs Gate debate (heh, it rhymes), BG1 was excellent, though slow to start with. BG2 and its expansion literally blew me out of my seat, so much so that for about a month I played it solidly until I had completed it. Of course I suppose one of the major reasons why I prefer BG2 over BG1 was the fact that I count a games storyline as a deciding factor in whether I like it, hence why I do not mind a game that is a little linear if I can empathise with the characters, and if the actual plot is good enough to grip my interest to the point where I feel a real need to finish the game to find out what happens. Plus the talking sword amused me...
You dare the wrath of Fallout fans world over. And Civilization fans. And ... oh, nevermind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros