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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
They're actually a cottage industry down here. They've even got a category in the Yellow Pages. Generally, they advertise their services as a revenge-oriented type service. Somebody steals your reserved parking space at work? Well, hire "Charlie". Charlie just got out of the local state hospital, has fully weaned himself off of his medications and specializes in chainsaws, axes and other assorted lawn tools.... :skull:
Okay...
That's good stuff...
:laugh4:
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
All kidding aside, regardless of how likely such an occurrence is, Goof, you've yet to convince me that my responsible ownership should be forefit due to the illegal and reckless behavior of others. In short, using your arguments, I'd like to make the argument to bring back Prohibition. And in the spirit of respect for autonomy of other nations that you and others have shown, I insist that the UN pass this initiative on a global basis. After all, far more people die from alcohol related incidents each year than firearms, and you don't have a legitimate need for alcohol. You just want it. I'm sorry, there are irresponsible people out there that cannot handle alcohol being freely available, so we must ban it for everyone, worldwide. Then we will all be safe.
I understand your point completely Don. When it comes down to it, just about every law in every country that limits freedoms comes down to that very question: Is the limiting of this freedom providing a net benefit to society (or, conversely, is not limiting this freedom providing a net benefit to society)? And there will always be people on both sides of the question no matter what it is. And no, I don't think the onus is on the individual to "prove" the validity of every single freedom. Quite the opposite: If politicians want to limit freedoms, they must vote to do so. Then if they have not made a compelling case that they have done the right thing, they will most certainly lose their jobs to others who will more accurately reflect the will of their constituents.
I personally believe that allowing private ownership of handguns provides no net benefit to society. In fact, I believe that private ownership of handguns provides a net deficit. For that reason, I think ownership of handguns should be criminalized.
Obviously, you disagree.
The problem is that there is no absolute method for quantifying and measuring that net benefit or deficit. If there were, I would like to think that we would not be having this discussion, because whichever one of us that was shown to be incorrect would say "Oh, I guess you're right."
:yes:
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
I personally believe that allowing private ownership of handguns provides no net benefit to society. In fact, I believe that private ownership of handguns provides a net deficit. For that reason, I think ownership of handguns should be criminalized.
:yes:
Absolutely. By the way, speaking as a drinker myself, I find myself at a loss as to what net benefit society enjoys when I down a Molson or a glass of chianti. Would you care to enlighten me, so that I can confidently set aside my drive for global Prohibition? Otherwise, my sense of concern for the 'kids' has me prioritizing the outlawing of alcohol, which kills far more and provides no net benefit to society, and then moving on to banning handguns, which kills far fewer, but again, doesn't provide a net benefit to society, at least not on the Goofball scale.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Absolutely. By the way, speaking as a drinker myself, I find myself at a loss as to what net benefit society enjoys when I down a Molson or a glass of chianti. Would you care to enlighten me, so that I can confidently set aside my drive for global Prohibition? Otherwise, my sense of concern for the 'kids' has me prioritizing the outlawing of alcohol, which kills far more and provides no net benefit to society, and then moving on to banning handguns, which kills far fewer, but again, doesn't provide a net benefit to society, at least not on the Goofball scale.
Again, Don, we're going around the same circle.
As I said, there is no way to quantify the net benefit/deficit to society of allowing people to drink booze or own handguns, and that's the problem. Mainly because the benefits offered by either are intangible, so what it comes down to is a decision based on emotion.
I quite enjoy shooting, and have probably put more rounds downrange than many of the avid gun supporters who frequent these boards. But I would give up that freedom without thinking about it if it meant that my son and daughter could go through their entire lives never having to even see a gun. (As a side note, I and my son, who is now three and a half, were visiting some friends who have a 7 year old a couple of months ago. When my friend's son offered my son a toy rifle to play with, my son came running over to show me the "rocket-ship" his friend had lent him. Brought a tear to my eye.)
As far as the comparison between guns and booze goes, it always comes back to this for me:
Guns, when used as intended, are inherently a tool of violence.
Booze, when used as intended, is inherently a tool of enjoying some time with friends on your back deck while grilling steaks and telling lies about women.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Guns, when used as intended, are inherently a tool of violence.
So what? A tool of violence is what you want to defend yourself. Society suffers very, very, little from legal ownership of handguns, and, at least in the US, gets good benefits. The vast majority of problems arising from people with guns are people who own guns illegally before they go on to commit more illegal acts - outlawing handgun ownership will do nothing to stop that.
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But I would give up that freedom without thinking about it if it meant that my son and daughter could go through their entire lives never having to even see a gun.
You'd give up a freedom just to prevent your children from seeing a mechanical instrument?
CR
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So what? A tool of violence is what you want to defend yourself. Society suffers very, very, little from legal ownership of handguns, and, at least in the US, gets good benefits. The vast majority of problems arising from people with guns are people who own guns illegally before they go on to commit more illegal acts - outlawing handgun ownership will do nothing to stop that.
The guy who shot up Virginia Tech was using legally purchased handguns for their intended purpose.
When a drunk kills a family with his car, he is using neither the booze nor the car as they were intended.
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
You'd give up a freedom just to prevent your children from seeing a mechanical instrument?
CR
That particular freedom and that particular mechanical object?
Yep.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
Ah... The fabled "crazed axe murderer."
I propose a modified version of Godwin's Law, which I will dub "Goofball's Law."
As an online discussion about gun control grows longer, the probability of of a participant invoking the "crazed axe murderer" approaches 1.
I'd like to see some numbers on this because from listening to discussions in here, it would seem that crazed axe murderers breaking in to peoples' homes bent on nothing less than creating middle-class chop-suey are a very common item in the U.S.
It was an exaggeration goofball. You can substitute it for many things. IE dog attacks (not unrealistic where I live, not long a ago on my street three large dogs attacked an old lady.) to violent burglars.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
Again, Don,
I quite enjoy shooting, and have probably put more rounds downrange than many of the avid gun supporters who frequent these boards. But I would give up that freedom without thinking about it if it meant that my son and daughter could through their entire lives never have to even see a gun. (As a side note, I and my son, who is now three and a half, were visiting some friends who have a 7 year old a couple of months ago. When my friend's son offered my son a toy rifle to play with, my son came running over to show me the "rocket-ship" his friend had lent him. Brought a tear to my eye.)
As far as the comparison between guns and booze goes, it always comes back to this for me:
Guns, when used as intended, are inherently a tool of violence.
Booze, when used as intended, is inherently a tool of enjoying some time with friends on your back deck while grilling steaks and telling lies about women.
I am somewhat skeptical of you claiming to have shot more then most pro gun orgahs but there is no way to prove that so.... to the next point.
What's it matter if he sees a gun or not.... will the sight of something as hideous as this scar him for life? (Yes that is a real gun, no it is not mine)
And how is keeping your kid in the dark from what a toy gun is making you proud? What kind of kid doesn't have a cap gun or super soaker?
What it comes down to for me is. If you don't want a gun, fine no problem good for you, it's your choice. When you try to say other people shouldn't have a gun then there is a problem.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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I am somewhat skeptical of you claiming to have shot more then most pro gun orgahs but there is no way to prove that so.... to the next point.
That would be rather silly skepticism considering his military career .:dizzy2:
I suppose with your clear logic because I am in favour of stringent firearms regulations I obviously neither own a gun or go shooting .
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
That would be rather silly skepticism considering his military career .:dizzy2:
I suppose with your clear logic because I am in favour of stringent firearms regulations I obviously neither own a gun or go shooting .
I knew he was in the military and was counting it.
And if you are in favor of strict firearms restrictions on other people.... then why would you shoot? That's like saying "I am against recreational drug use but I like to shoot heroin every once in a while"
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
And if you are in favor of strict firearms restrictions on other people.... then why would you shoot? That's like saying "I am against recreational drug use but I like to shoot heroin every once in a while"
Well, not quite. Supporting a total ban on firearms while still using them would indeed be hypocritical, but it would be possible to support strict restrictions while still using firearms, as long as the use was in full compliance with the restrictions the individual advocated.
Ajax
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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And if you are in favor of strict firearms restrictions on other people.... then why would you shoot?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: You just don't get it do you:dizzy2:
You appear to be stuck in a gun nut rut
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
I quite enjoy shooting, and have probably put more rounds downrange than many of the avid gun supporters who frequent these boards. But I would give up that freedom without thinking about it if it meant that my son and daughter could go through their entire lives never having to even see a gun.
My first thought here was to agree with you. If I could majically make ALL of the guns dissapear, then no one would need a gun, and it would be ok to ban them. Then I thought of the proverbial 98 pound weakling, and I decided that I would probably want to make a gun reappear for him if he and his wife were facing a rapist 3 times his size and wielding a knife or baseball bat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
(As a side note, I and my son, who is now three and a half, were visiting some friends who have a 7 year old a couple of months ago. When my friend's son offered my son a toy rifle to play with, my son came running over to show me the "rocket-ship" his friend had lent him. Brought a tear to my eye.)
I have a similar story that nearly brought a tear to my eye. My Dad was showing my four year old son a toy gun that shoots little suction cup darts. Dad told him to pull the trigger on the gun, and my son said, "Daddy says you should never pull the trigger on a gun! You're supposed to squeeeeze the trigger."
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
Just a thought but going by some people's statements on this topic and others....
By principles of argument put forth in the legalizing of drugs, shouldn't the legal restricted ownership of guns work by that same principle. However I do see many who favor legalized drugs also in favor of extremely strict gun laws. I'm just curious as to these positions not being mutually exclusive.
I believe its safe to say that as the illegality of firearms increases the ability of the criminal element to leverage deadly force against an unarmed populace also increases.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus
However I do see many who favor legalized drugs also in favor of extremely strict gun laws. I'm just curious as to these positions not being mutually exclusive.
A paradoxical political position? Heaven forfend! Next thing you'll tell me that the people who favor abortion rights don't support capital punishment, or that capital punishment supporters don't endorse euthanasia. Or you'll tell me that the candidates who reference Jesus don't give a darn about the poor and destitute. How many paradoxes can my tiny lemur brain take?
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Lemur
A paradoxical political position? Heaven forfend!
Calm down Beavis.
Of course not heaven forfend. The others you listed are brought to bear and express themselves at every corner of the American Politic where there is believed relevancy (and sometimes not). I'm only pointing out this one, in this relative discussion, and wish for those within this paradoxical struggle to express their position and how they personally and politically reconcile the two.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus
By principles of argument put forth in the legalizing of drugs, shouldn't the legal restricted ownership of guns work by that same principle. However I do see many who favor legalized drugs also in favor of extremely strict gun laws. I'm just curious as to these positions not being mutually exclusive.
Doesn't seem paradoxical to me. Let's face it, if everyone's off their heads on drugs, you hardly want them heavily armed as well...
:wink3:
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
I am somewhat skeptical of you claiming to have shot more then most pro gun orgahs but there is no way to prove that so.... to the next point.
I can think of single days where I probably did more shooting than some recreational shooters would do in an entire year. Live fire defensive exercises are a lot of fun.
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
What's it matter if he sees a gun or not.... will the sight of something as hideous as
this scar him for life? (Yes that is a real gun, no it is not mine)
No, the sight of a gun would not scar him. The underlying point is that if he never sees a gun he will never shoot one at another person, or have another person shoot one at him.
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
And how is keeping your kid in the dark from what a toy gun is making you proud? What kind of kid doesn't have a cap gun or super soaker?
My kind of kid. What kind of kid needs a toy gun? My kid is perfectly happy with toy trains, toy construction equipment, toy airplanes, and a big stack of picturebooks. I see no need for toy guns. I don't even think the words "toy" and "gun" should ever be used together. Guns are not toys and should never be presented as such.
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
What it comes down to for me is. If you don't want a gun, fine no problem good for you, it's your choice. When you try to say other people shouldn't have a gun then there is a problem.
My position is not that nobody should be allowed to have any guns. My position is that certain types of people should not be allowed to have any guns, and certain types of guns should not be owned by any people.
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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus
Just a thought but going by some people's statements on this topic and others....
By principles of argument put forth in the legalizing of drugs, shouldn't the legal restricted ownership of guns work by that same principle. However I do see many who favor legalized drugs also in favor of extremely strict gun laws. I'm just curious as to these positions not being mutually exclusive.
Not mutually exclusive at all.
I am in favor of strict gun control, under which the government would regulate what type of guns could be sold to whom, and would implement (and enforce) severe penalties for anybody owning or selling guns illegally.
I am also in favor of strict drug control, under which the government would regulate what type of drugs could be sold to whom, and would implement (and enforce) severe penalties for anybody owning or selling drugs illegally. As opposed to the current regime where they simply criminalize the sale and possession of most drugs.
Funnily enough, most police forces seem to agree with me on both counts.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: You just don't get it do you:dizzy2:
You appear to be stuck in a gun nut rut
Tribes I understand what your saying and know people who think like that but I still find the "you can have guns but only the kind I approve of" attitude ridiculous..... how much more of a jackass can you be? (not directed at anyone in this thread)
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
Now then Scooter , talking of ridiculous .
You recently used a little slogan in a gun-topic , some fat bloke made it quite famous when he featured moses saying it in a sort of documentary .
In my opinion anyone who could seriously express that intent is exactly the type of person who should have their access to firearms very severly restricted .
I would even go as far as saying that anyone with such a mindset about an innanimate object would really need close supervision by a responsible adult before you let them use a pair of scissors .
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by scooter_the_shooter
Tribes I understand what your saying and know people who think like that but I still find the "you can have guns but only the kind I approve of" attitude ridiculous..... how much more of a jackass can you be? (not directed at anyone in this thread)
Good, solid argument, that...
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
Doesn't seem paradoxical to me. Let's face it, if everyone's off their heads on drugs, you hardly want them heavily armed as well....
And likewise with a nation full of guns you hardly want everyone to have free access to copius amounts of narcotics. :beam:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Not mutually exclusive at all.
I am in favor of strict gun control, under which the government would regulate what type of guns could be sold to whom, and would implement (and enforce) severe penalties for anybody owning or selling guns illegally.
I am also in favor of strict drug control, under which the government would regulate what type of drugs could be sold to whom, and would implement (and enforce) severe penalties for anybody owning or selling drugs illegally. As opposed to the current regime where they simply criminalize the sale and possession of most drugs.
Funnily enough, most police forces seem to agree with me on both counts.
I understand your points, but at what point do you limit drug consumption and how? Background checks? Waiting period? How do you control the illegal resale when we can't even do that with food stamps?
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus
I understand your points, but at what point do you limit drug consumption and how? Background checks? Waiting period? How do you control the illegal resale when we can't even do that with food stamps?
Much like alcohol, I would be fine with drug consumption being limited to adults. On this side of the coin, I am more concerned with taking the criminal element out of the production and distribution of drugs.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
Much like alcohol, I would be fine with drug consumption being limited to adults. On this side of the coin, I am more concerned with taking the criminal element out of the production and distribution of drugs.
I was under the impression from your previous post...
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Originally Posted by Goofball
I am also in favor of strict drug control, under which the government would regulate what type of drugs could be sold to whom.
...that you were for strict drug control. How well have we done limiting alcohol consumption to adults? By the same definition of strict will guns be opened up to all adults?
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus
I was under the impression from your previous post...
...that you were for strict drug control. How well have we done limiting alcohol consumption to adults? By the same definition of strict will guns be opened up to all adults?
They already are.
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Re: Gun control and school shootings
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Originally Posted by Goofball
They already are.
Well they most certainly are not. I was in an establishment in Idaho back in 97 when a U.S. Senator came in and was refused a gun on the basis of his background check. As far as being on topic with the "school shootings" I'm sure you know that had the judge not ordered the gentleman at VT to be placed in voluntary treatment as opposed to being ordered involuntary treatment it would have been red flagged under the background check and he would have been refused the gun purchases he made.
Not to say he couldn't have acquired them illegally with enough diligence.
