Question for you, Bopa... you're in Hungary, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
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Question for you, Bopa... you're in Hungary, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
No, I'm in NZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
No. They pale in comparison to arab terrorism.Quote:
You don't think that the terror tactics and conquest employed by the zionists before they declared themselves a nation might be the root of the problem?
Nor Iraq or Jordan or Palestine right? What makes Israel different?Quote:
Isreal should never had been allowed to exist.
Well then how about asking him a direct question on the matter. I havent seen him post in this thread on develpoments prior to 48. Please take us back in time my friend and lets hash this out.Quote:
Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.
I think you will find that Goof is one of the most educated people on this matter and one of the most vociverous for Israel along with myself.Quote:
Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.
Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done. Remember me telling you about Sharon and his little escapade in Lebanon with those Christian extemists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Or about Israelis not allowing pregnant palestinian women get through roadblocks, meaning they have to traverse difficult hilly terrain to get to a hospital?
Or about Israeli snipers in the Gaza Strip driving through Palestinian homes for no apparent gain? Vandalizing (in a most disturbing way) a Palestinian school?
Shooting an old women on her way to a hospital?
This to me does not sound like the actions of a civilized democracy, it sounds like a warmongering nation led by War Criminals. Israel commits terror on a far larger scale, under th guise of defence and an army of a recognised state.
All terrible, to be sure. Not to be sanctioned, no doubt. But I'm not sure how you can claim that the Arabs have done nothing to compare with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
Ajax
Fine give me something which the Palestinians have done to compare.
Remeber it was the zionists who first brought terrorism to the middle east.
Your right . With your first example youve shown that it was they who are at fault. Sharon did this before all the Arabs invaded Israel right? :no:Quote:
Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done. Remember me telling you about Sharon and his little escapade in Lebanon with those Christian extemists?
Now why are there roadblocks? Of course no Palestinian woman would ever think of killing herself in the name of Alah. :skull:Quote:
Or about Israelis not allowing pregnant palestinian women get through roadblocks, meaning they have to traverse difficult hilly terrain to get to a hospital?
Look no one claims the Israelis are saints but they have good cause for all the rest of things you mention here.
Exactly. In fact they make the Israelis look like noobs in this game. It is they who always keep the violence going.Quote:
All terrible, to be sure. Not to be sanctioned, no doubt. But I'm not sure how you can claim that the Arabs have done nothing to compare with it.
Then you need a dose of reality.Quote:
This to me does not sound like the actions of a civilized democracy, it sounds like a warmongering nation led by War Criminals. Israel commits terror on a far larger scale, under th guise of defence and an army of a recognised state.
Today 21:42
Making a statement dealing in such positive, black and white, absolutes (especially the use of the words "nothing" and "ever") demonstrates that you have very little understanding of the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
All but the most extreme zealots on either side of this argument will concede that both sides have been guilty of terrible acts, and that the conflict has painted neither the Arabs nor Israelis in a particularly flattering light.
I am staunchly pro-Israel, for reasons that I have stated many times. But I would never presume to state that Israel has not at times been heavy-handed, unjust, and sometimes even driven by nothing more than a simple need for revenge in this conflict.
But here is the difference between you and me (at least as it pertains to this discussion):
I am pro-Israel, in that I believe that Israel has a right to exist, but I am not anti-Arab.
You are pro-Arab, but because you believe that for the Arabs (and, apparently, the entire world) to gain, Israel must cease to exist, you are also anti-Israel.
Now I wonder, whose position sounds more reasonable?
And Watchman, there is a difference between ignorance and disagreement. I have read quite a bit about the history of the region prior to 1948. My readings have consisted of Israeli propaganda, Arab propaganda, and sources that claim to be unbiased. What I have found so far is that when it comes to this issue, just about everything that has ever been published is slanted one way or the other.
My reading has left me with the overall opinion that the Jews/Israelis were more victims than villains in this tragedy.
Obviously, your reading has led you to a different conclusion. I neither blame you nor think you any sort of an idiot or ignoramous for having reached a different conclusion than I did.
I would ask that you extend me the same courtesy.
:bow:
For one merry bunch I like to bring up as a fine example of just what level of nutjobs there were around in Palestine, here's the Wiki entry on the Lehi or "Stern Gang" as they're often called. Jolly bunch.
From a brief look at Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
The ambush of the Avavim school bus in 1970 by the DFLP, in which three adults and nine children were killed by machine gun fire and nineteen other children seriously wounded.
The murder of 11 top Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics by Black September.
The attack on the Maalot elementary school by the DFLP in 1974, in which they killed 21 children and 5 adults.
The 2001 suicide bombing of a disco in Tel Aviv, killing 21 Israelis, mostly teenagers, and injuring over 100.
The 2001 bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, killing 7 children and 8 adults.
The 2002 bombing of a passover celebration in Netanya, killing 30 and injuring about 140, many of them holocaust survivors.
The 2002 bombing of an Israeli Arab restaurant in Matza, killing 15 including 2 entire families.
The attempted use of a 12-year-old, and one week later, a 16-year-old, as suicide bombers at a military checkpoint near Nablus in 2005. More recently the use of women as suicide bombers.
I'd go on, but I'm getting both tired and depressed. There's the tip of the iceberg anyway. No, what the Israelis have done has not been pretty. The Palestinians have been just as bad.
Ajax
Put like that, naturally. :bow: Put in the somewhat... curt form which I originally adressed... :shifty:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
I'm well enough familiar with the horrid treatment the Jews have received (from Christian Europeans mainly) to quite sympathize with the idea of a state or land of their own where they wouldn't be constantly persecuted and harassed. I just find it somewhat... rude to go build it somewhere someone else is already living, and when that someone doesn't quite agree on you moving into his flat, driving him out with violence and leaving him out in the cold to starve.
If you see what I mean.
I also sort of fail to see where the Arabs didn't have just as good as if not even better claim for a state on that same piece of real estate.
In the spirit of derailing this thread, isn't it a tad ironic that Israel was meant to be a safe haven for Jews after WWII, and it's surrounded by people who want to blow it up... Jews from all over the world gather there, and they've been tricked somehow into wanting to live in a country where they'll get bombed all the time... what a great way to say sorry.
You ought to ask yourself if you have any right to be, in light of the way the Maori were treated. Does New Zealand have a right to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
I'm not saying that you don't. I'm saying it's virtually impossible to find any corner of the globe where somebody displaced somebody. All you can do is agree to get along now. This is why most people, Israel included, support a 2-state solution.
Saying "Israel stole the land from the Palestinians, all should die" is no different than saying "New Zealand stole the land from the Maori, all must die" or "America stole the land from the Sioux, all must die". Compromise, my friend, compromise.
Uh... Gawain, I'm pretty sure that back in the day it was Zionist militants who very much taught the Arabs the ropes in this sort of nasty business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Not to forget the state has pretty much single-handedly done away with the once decent enough Muslim-Jewish relations the world over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
A somewhat strange way to improve your persecuted people's lot IMO - once one big monotheistic world-religion finally gets off your case, pick a fight with the other which has thus far been friendly enough...
And thats but the tip of the Iceberg.
Arab riots of 1920-1921?
Arab riots of 1929?
Arab Revolt of 1936-39?
I could go on and on and on and on and on and on .Quote:
The day after the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947, violence against Jewish civilians began to escalate. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30, 1947 to February 1, 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter#attacks. These were not military operations, but terrorism against civilian targets intended to achieve political aims for the Arabs who were dissatisfied with the United Nations partition plan.
In February 1948 there was a bombing on the 1st in Jerusalem against the Palestine Post building (later renamed the The Jerusalem Post) which killed six people and injured dozens. Then on February 22nd, three booby-trapped trucks positioned in Ben-Yehuda Street exploded, destroying four large buildings, killing 50 and injuring more than 100. On March 11, a car bomb exploded in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12 people, injuring 44, and causing extensive damage.
Arab acts of hostility prior to statehood reached their peak in March. Arabs controlled all the inter-urban routes. The road to Jerusalem was blocked, settlements in the Galilee and the Negev were also cut off and daily attacks were perpetrated on convoys. In the four months after the UN resolution, some 850 Jews were killed throughout the country, most of them in Jerusalem or on the road to the city.
On April 13, 1948, Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles -- trucks, buses and ambulances -- carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. In the attack, 78 were killed and their bodies mutilated. Dozens are wounded. British soldiers delayed intervention in the attack for 6 hours while the killing continued. The hospital was cut off from Israel until it was recovered after the Six Day War in June 1967.
The largest Arab atrocity of the war was on May 13, 1948, the massacre of dozens of surrendering defenders, including some twenty women, at Kfar Etzion in the Etzion Bloc of settlements (Gush Etzion) just north of Hebron, in the territory allocated to the Arabs under the UN partition plan. The Etzion Bloc had already seen a massacre in January 1947 when a Haganah platoon of 35 soldiers sent to help them with medical supplies and ammunition was massacred by hundreds of Arab militants. Their stripped, mutilated bodies were found the next day by a British patrol.
The final battle for Gush Etzion took place between May 12-14, 1948. Massive, heavily armed enemy forces overran the Jewish positions. A handful of exhausted defenders, equipped only with light arms and very little ammunition could not withstand the attacking forces. On Thursday, May 13th, Kfar Etzion fell, its defenders killed, most of them slaughtered by Arab rioters after the collapse of the defense. Gush Etzion was destroyed in the aftermath -- everything of value was removed, then the buildings were reduced to rubble. Hundreds of thousands of trees in the orchards -- individually planted by the Jewish farmers -- were uprooted.
From your own article:Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Aren't you one of the members of the chorus who love to sing the "don't paint all Palestinians with the terrorist brush" song? Yet here you are trying to do the same thing to the Israelis by putting forth that a fringe terrorist organization is somehow representative of Israel as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
So, just to do a bit of summing up:
Israeli terrorist organization is at odds with the Israeli government and Israeli population in general.
Arab terrorist organization is elected by popular majority to be the legitimate government of Palestine.
Things that make you say "hmmmmm....."
And Im pretty sure you are wrong.Quote:
Uh... Gawain, I'm pretty sure that back in the day it was Zionist militants who very much taught the Arabs the ropes in this sort of nasty business.
Enjoying this discussion/thread immensely as of late and contributions by all sides, very educational. :book:
OK someone here mentioned some terrorist attacks.
SO let's reply because Jews were not so spectacular but much more successful.
22.07.1946 - King Dawid hotel, Jerusalem -good jewish attack
14.02.1948 - one of bravest actions of Jewish army. 2 Arab houses with 60 civilians destroyed.
04.1948 Deir Jassin - Jews showed Palestinians that they want live into peace. Methods seems to be similar to SS
Heres some of villages, where Jews murdered most of citizens. I didn't mentioned attacks with less than 40 casualties.
Naser Al-Din , Al-Szejk , Dahmash , Kibja (that village did personally Ariel Szaron)
As a result into 1948 - 650.000 people force to leave their homes because Jews wanted etnically clear territory. Most of them settled into camps, made children, who became terrorists ( I wonder why :))
1956 - peaceful Israel attack bloody Egipt
1981 - Israel decide that old-jewish territory (Golan hills ) should be Jewish again.
1982-2000 - Israeli brave army attack Empire of Evil - Lebanon.
During that 3000 civilians killed by Jewish and Christian formations. Jewish army gave them guns and flashlights (don't waste night when killing :D)
20.05.1990 - Ojon Qara - brave jewish soldiers killed 20 cilivians - for fun
Here I must say that Jew behave exactly like SS soldier into Ghetto.
And there were guy into Auschwitz who loved kill some people each day - for fun.
25.02.1994 Ibrahima - another innocent Jew kills 61 people into Hebron.
2006 - -||- . Just by mistake Jewish bullets don't hit Hezbollah. Destroyed was Lebanon infrastructure. No country into Middle East can be economically equal to Israel!!!
I wonder what could you do guys. You are living in your home. Your family lives there for 1900 years. And then someone came and build his home on your field. When you protest, he uses gun, kill half of your family and force you to leave your home. Why? Because 2000 years later his ancestors lived there. No matter, that they left that place.
I wonder if you would be happy. I personally would fight.
And what really annoys me about Jews is that when someone tell that they commit war crime, they reply;
-But we survived holocaust.
And when you tell..
-OK but now you are making holocaust and slowly killing Palestinians as nation
They reply
-But this can't be compared.
That "peaceful isreal atacks bloody egypt" is about the six years war?
An attack on British headquaters in the region . They were also warned to evacuate it.Quote:
22.07.1946 - King Dawid hotel, Jerusalem -good jewish attack
How many Muslims live in Israel? How many Jews live the surrounding nations?Quote:
As a result into 1948 - 650.000 people force to leave their homes because Jews wanted etnically clear territory. Most of them settled into camps, made children, who became terrorists ( I wonder why :))
Peacfeul? Didnt the Israelis have some allies? Why did they attack?Quote:
1956 - peaceful Israel attack bloody Egipt
Wow you left out the 67 war :laugh4:
Yeah theyhad a meeting and decided they would just like to have it back lol. Of course the fact that Syria had been shelling Israel from there for decades has nothing to do with it or that there was a war being fought.Quote:
Israel decide that old-jewish territory (Golan hills ) should be Jewish again.
Why?Quote:
1982-2000 - Israeli brave army attack Empire of Evil - Lebanon.
During that 3000 civilians killed by Jewish and Christian formations. Jewish army gave them guns and flashlights (don't waste night when killing :D)
That might have happpened to both of them :laugh4: You dor ealise how few arabs lived in Israel for 1900 hundred years? And how many of those owned the land? And waht of the millions of Jews around the ME who have been driven from their homes. Who have lived as second class citizens in these countries for centuries few as there are. How is it that Israel has taken all the Jewish refugees in ,an amount that is larger than that of Palestinian refugees?Quote:
I wonder what could you do guys. You are living in your home. Your family lives there for 1900 yearsAnd then someone came and build his home on your field. When you protest, he uses gun, kill half of your family and force you to leave your home. Why? Because 2000 years later his ancestors lived there. No matter, that they left that place.
Not if I didnt own the land. How is it though this doesnt apply to the Jews who live there? They actually owned the land and many had lived there longer.Quote:
I wonder if you would be happy. I personally would fight.
The Palestinians are a culture of death. They are their own worst enemies. They are killing themselves. Isnt that whats meant by suicide?Quote:
-OK but now you are making holocaust and slowly killing Palestinians as nation
Racist much ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Seriously, such things happen almost everywhere, there are even civilians all around the world who kill for fun, we call them murderers. Doesn't make it any better, but to pass it as something only Jews and Nazis do is simply wrong, not every Nazi was a Nazi because he liked to kill people and not every Jew is a jew for that reason, you're also generalizing a lot again.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
And why are you saying jews when you're showing us a list of things Israelis(or those who later became israelis) did?
If you think that's ok, then just assume that I hate you because all Poles want to steal my job...:sweatdrop:
(And to clarify that right away, no, I do not hate you. ~;) )
I'm pretty sure Israeli Arabs can be largely assumed to not have played great part in most of that stuff...
Noot in the least.I just go by facts. And no there are Im sure many fine Palestinians. Unfortunaly they are the silent who knows what?Quote:
Racist much ?
lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Evil Palestinian scums don't know when to quit and die off eh. :balloon:
Maybe thats your take on it. Mines they dont know when to quit and live. Again Im sure there are many fine Palestinians. Just too many of them have been brain washed. The radicals rule.Quote:
Evil Palestinian scums don't know when to quit and die off eh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Zionists are the extreme wing of the Israeli nation, and as such are a hinderance in the search for peace just as much as the Palestinian radicals.
The only time I have stated a belief that Zionists and Islamists are the same is when I stated that I have no time for either. Both are, IMO, people to be held in contempt for neither truely help their people though both claim to do so.
Secondly to assume correlation between anti-Israel and anti-Jew is to assume too much IMO. You may suspect it, but to assume as you have done here is not. I'll agree that some posts here have made such sentiment clear, but to assume such a meaning for other posts criticising Israel is not healthy.
Further to suggest that to criticise Israel is to be anti-Israel is simple paranoia. I'll criticise Israel all I like (for all the good it does!). This does not mean that I wish it to be wiped off the map as I surely would if I was anti-Israel.
Nor does it suggest that I favour their enemies or that I have a hatred of their ethnic group. I may distrust Israel as an unreliable ally but this does not mean that I distrust Jews as a group.
Of course I can only speak for myself, but I suggest to you (especially in the light of your recent thread on The Troubles) that the world really isn't as black and white as all that.
You'd think so wouldn't you but I'd bet that some of the soldiers involved in some of these incidents were Arabs. Bedouins most likely, not sure whether they would be Israeli citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman