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That's a difficult one Don Corleone. I guess the polar will see the main danger in the big mouth and avoid that. I do not think that the salties tail will become a nasty problem for polar.
The bear has to be careful, very, but he may win. He has better stamina, agility and bodytemperature management.
Thanks for making yourself its first example. Its a bit less than that as research continues to point out. Sequencing alone puts number at no higher than 95-96% (I subscribe to the 95) and thats for chimps. Chimps and humans share more DNA coding in relation to each other than do either to gorillas. Gorillas divergence estimated at around 4-6 million years before that of chimps and 10-13 million after old world monkeys. There are many researchers seeking the golden number and golden dates as far as similarity percentage and divergence dates go and many deploy different techniques and data. While numbers higher than 95% in regards to chimps will get a person published and possibly a full professorship, they don't do much to further a firm grasp aside from adding to the overall data pool, thus contributing to the law of large numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
How can a crocodila win against a polar bear on land? I think it can't. Crocodiles are dangerous predators if they can get their prey by surprise and drag it into the water, but they fall victim to quite a few other animals themselves, including big snakes. Now that saltwater croc may be a bit bigger, but that doesn't make it more agile or so, it should even make it's turn radius bigger, thus making it more vulnerable from the sides and behind.
Concerning cats, I can suggest a look at the wikipedia entry for Panthera and the sub entries for the cats, all four cats are great in their very own way(it says Jaguars specialise in biting through thick things like skulls and turtle armour :sweatdrop: ).
And I like pictures like this.:2thumbsup:
Crocs bite and hold, drown, and try to roll of a few chuncks. That won't work with a bear that's probably heavier then a croc, and has a talent for floating because of it's fatlayers. Croc might just get a chunk of bearfat, and that would be it's last meal. I don't think there is an animal that can take on a polar bear at all, maybe hogzilla.
God, look at it, magnificant animals.
http://images.google.nl/url?q=http:/...shWMdTKTMfd-4w
[wiki]Panthera[/wiki]
Panthera
No-brainer. Lions are hunters, gorilla's are vegetarian wusses.
In it's own habitat? Orca? Mites, parasites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I agree though, there aren't many animals. Despite all that, they are on the Red List.
Crippled cows yes. Kong Fu no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
The Orca is probably the ultimate predator, they even succesfully attack great whites. But they are the ultimate of the sea, but on land, what could take these polar bears on, they can run/swim/climb/smell/look, and they are good at all of it. Only way to stop them is how you would stop a cavalry charge, a big pike, that is how the indians hunt bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
This guy says that some leopards actually prey on stray silver backs and young gorillas.
http://www.berggorilla.org/english/f...en/feinde.html
I've always been a feline-fangirl so I'm gonna side with the Lion Camp, and the above paragraph linked is my irrefutable evidence.
http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/animal0037.gif
Edit: Another link, check out bullet 12
http://books.google.com/books?id=wSX...ON5ZPGUi1JHyEA
http://www.blueiceberg.com/nature/nature38.htm photo galleries/marine mammals/polar bears/ polar bear and dogQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
This thread also reminds me of the octopus vs. shark video.
Don't know what we can learn from that, but it's still a cool video.
I disagree! The lions may take a few isolated, old, sick gorillas, but a fresh, healthy gorilla would pwn the lion any day! Just look what the zebra could do to the lion in the video posted on the previous page! Lions are the most clumsy and devolved of all cats. If it had been tiger vs gorilla, it would been an entirely different matter, but I don't think the lion can do much. Heck I'd even give leopard vs gorilla greater odds for the leopard than I'd give the lion in lion vs gorilla! :smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
THIS:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...Assassin68.gif
+
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...esass/axe1.jpg
=
DEAD POLAR BEAR!!!! :smash:
=========
Actually, why do you think there aren't any polar bears south of the north pole, and few bears close to the equator? There must be some weakness in this ultimate predator... I'd say they're too slow to compete with African herbivores, and despite their impressive strength, weight and size, they're too tiny to compete with slightly slower animals such as elephants. That's why they must stick far to the north, where the animals are more energy conserving with thick furs, and are slow and not very manouverable.
Lion v Gorilla is a tough call, so I'll avoid it.
I have to go with the polar bear against the crocodile, though. Those bears are massive beasts - the linked video showed a bear dragging a bull walrus (after killing it). Think about the weight and mass involved for a bit.
Crazed Rabbit
I can quarantee you that polar bear is not going to take on that bull walrus - or any grown adult one for that matter - head on unless it's desperate though. It's one thing to bushwhack one when it surfaces (the normal polar teddy tactic for hunting seals and their ilk), and entirely another to actually fight that ornery ton of blubber, tusk and muscle.
Ever heard of Cape Buffaloes ? "Herbivore" and "harmless" are anything but synonymous...Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Polar bears are the arctic offshoot of the regular "brown" bear encountered all across the subarctic zone (grizzlies, black bears etc. are local subspecies) - the reasons they're not encountered very south should be pretty obvious. Bears in general are chiefly animals of the northern forest regions and comparable climates, although there are (usually largely herbivorous) species dwelling in the jungles of southern and southeastern Asia. Probably South America too, not sure. Africa doesn't host them far as I know; probably too much geography unsuitable for bears (deserts and semi-steppe) in the way I'd imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
As the polar bear is the single biggest land animal, and sole large terrestrial carnivore, of its primary arctic haunts, it's obviously rather short of natural enemies and competitors (aside from its ilk of course). I understand they occasionally have scuffles with their southern cousins (and occasionally crossbreed - grizzly/polar hybrids aren't unknown) during the warm seasons which they spend on dry land, but as usual between large carnivores bear fights are primarily about intimidation and establishing who's bigger and meaner.
Nonsense. Lions are the pretty much exact sole felines to hunt in packs; the "wolves" of big cats if you will. This cooperative approach lets them take down large (and larger) prey more reliably than a lone cat could manage, and better defend their kills from competitors (or steal the kills of others for that matter). A solid enough strategy. The other big hunting cats in the same regions, solitary as they are, naturally have to use different tactics and tend to primarily go after slightly different animals.Quote:
Lions are the most clumsy and devolved of all cats.
Nonsense. Stick enough spears and javelins in it, and down it goes like any other animal. Humans have been hunting bears since Stone Age with quite a bit of success if not quite without risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
A big croc could incidentally probably kill one in water. Bears are primarily endurance swimmers, whereas crocs are specialists in killing large animals in water since zillion years back. The primary crocodile killing technique is really pretty simply - chomp down on the prey with that insane PSI ratio their jaws generate, hold tight, and keep the animal under water until it drowns (smaller animals can be killed faster by the usual tehcnique of waving them around until their spine gives). Then rip chunks off it and swallow. If one caught a good hold of a polar bear on a suitable body part, I sincerely doubt if there's very much the teddy could do about the matter.
On land the croc would probably be lunch, as there's not all that much keeping the bear off its (relatively) vulnerable neck. But then, crocs are adapted to hunt amphibiously and not on land anyway, and AFAIK try to bolt for water when feeling threatened.
I don't quite understand how the octopus manages to kill that shark eventually...Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It can hold it down like none other but what about that decisive blow?
How does it kill it?
By chewing vigorously ?
Or maybe just by holding it down?
Sharks need to move in order to stay floating, they lack an organ that keeps them floating at the same depth, IIRC they also move to breathe, they need a flow of water through their gills, the octopus may have even held them shut. Then the shark used up it's oxygen by fighting vigorously and that's the end of the story. Octopi are pretty intelligent, so if it did something intelligent to kill the shark, I wouldn't be surprised.
True. There may also be internal trauma, at one point it looked as if the shark was folded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Octopi also have a powerful beak (hidden between head and arms) http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Support/Ad...us/default.cfm
It's used to crack crabs, I guess it will also be a neat tool for brainsurgery (did't see traces in that movie).
The giant octopus is also venomous.
Goes like this, bear comes, you scream, bear stands erect, pike on the ground, bear comes down, MUHA DEAD BEARQuote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Not quite how bears were hunted around here, that.
That what you call here is kinda short on navajos so that is a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
What I don't quite understand about that video is why the National Geographic couldn't employ a decent voice-over guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Upxl
They're slower than other cats, the males have to sleep for 20 hours every day and do nothing but fight each other. Their herd strategy is what saves them from extinction because otherwise they couldn't catch any herbivores at all because they're neither fast like other cats nor endurant like the African wild dogs. However, their herd structure has also completely ruined their long term survival chance as a species by promoting inbreeding by males murdering the children made by other males, which has led almost every lion herd today to be inbred, having conditions such as pathologically enlarged heart, which is one of the reasons why they have to sleep 20 hours per day. They do have one strength, though, and that is that they can steal prey from other cats who are better hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Here's my candidate no. 1 for ultimate land predator (hunts the prey in packs, for hours, at speeds of up to 60 km/h):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Wild_Dog
Here's my candidate no. 2 for ultimate land predator (dragon's DO exist):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon
Here's my candidate no. 3 for ultimate land predator (both sneaky, fast, and strong):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger
Here's my candidate no. 4 for ultimate land predator (incredibly cool sneaker):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_leopard
Ultimate sea predator is of course (who can compete with it? it can hunt at sea, it can surf on the waves up on land and take prey on the shoreline, it can swim fast, it can hunt alone or in packs etc etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca
Ultimate temperate climate predator (hunts in packs, the African wild dog of the north, the source of the werewolf myth):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf
The overall winner is however:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle
No it doesn't, only the patriarch(s) get to breed, and the male youngsters got to conquer a tribe of their own, no inbreeding And they don't flock together out of necesity, it's what makes them so effective, pure strategy baby.
African wild dogs huh,
Cats vs dogs. Story. In england dog races were pretty popular, so tommy thought 'cheeta's hmmmmmmmm even faster'. They tried it, and it was a great succes. Once. The second race the cheeta's didn't run, but parked theirselves and just waited for the hare to finish his lap.
Wiki (like me) has another opinion:
"In lions, prides are often followed by related males in bachelor groups. When the dominant male is killed or driven off by one of these bachelors, a father may be replaced with his son. There is no mechanism for preventing inbreeding or to ensure outcrossing. In the prides, most lionesses are related to one another. If there is more than one dominant male, the group of alpha males are usually related. Two lines then are being "line bred". Also, in some populations such as the Crater lions, it is known that a population bottleneck has occurred. Far greater genetic heterozygosity than what was expected was found.[5] In fact, predators are known for low genetic variance, along with most of the top portion of the tropic levels of an ecosystem.[6] Additionally, the alpha males of two neighboring prides can potentially be from the same litter; one brother may come to acquire leadership over another's pride, and subsequently mate with his 'nieces' or cousins. However, killing another male's cubs, upon the takeover, allows for the new selected gene complement of the incoming alpha male to prevail over the previous male. There are genetic assays being scheduled for lions to determine their genetic diversity. The preliminary studies show results inconsistent with the outcrossing paradigm based on individual environments of the studied groups.[7] There was an assumption that wild populations do not inbreed; this is not what is observed in the wild, and is illogical, stemming from cultural constraints against incest in humans affecting how we view animals."
And a few other partly or completely relevant sources:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g092r3m342v4867q/
"But a new report in the Proceedings of the Royal Society series B (published online) on a naturally isolated population of lions paints a gloomier picture. Inbreeding and disease appear to have taken a major toll, reducing the population to well below the level that analysis of food resources suggest might be sustainable."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...5d5777831023d5
"While conservationists were busy worrying about rhinos, elephants and gorillas, something entirely unexpected happened - the African lion began to vanish from the wild in large numbers, even in protected areas. A population previously estimated at 100,000 in the early 1990's shrank to possibly as few as 16,000 [...] debilitating effects of inbreeding among surviving lions in the isolated pockets of habitat left to them"
http://www.shopthirteen.org/webapp/w...0101&langId=-1
Thanks for these new insights LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, you are of course 100% right. I learn something new each day, I love being around such well informed persons such as yourselve.
Just because I want to promote my favourite animal further, I present to you diving tigers!
Don, if you look around youtube, you'll find a video of a tiger killing a croc on land. The reptile is just basically defenseless - the tiger can get around it and go for the neck. The croc is far too clumsy to cope. Polar bear vs saltie is the same thing scaled up. I think the bear would be figure out how to tackle it - it not being too different from potential contests vs large seals on land that the bear might encounter.
BTW, there is also a fun website on animal fights that talks about lions, bears etc. It reckons the one predator that can beat the polar bear on land is the grizzly: similar size, but a more powerfully built creature with a stronger head and 6 inch rather than 2 inch claws. It says grizzlys tend to see off polar bears when the latter stray south.
No idea who would win in a gorilla vs lion fight. A battle to the death between the two is just so far from what would happen in nature, who can say? I don't think it would be like a lion hunting the gorilla - if it were (e.g. an ambush or a pursuit), the gorilla would be in trouble. But I don't think we can assume the lion would straightforwardly go for the neck as if hunting a bull. I think it would be more like a fight for domiance than a hunt. There would be a lot of confused scratching and thumping before; maybe wrestling if it really had to be to the death (not sure how you could engineer that). My gut feeling is that the lion is would prevail, being better equipped and instinctively knowing how to kill, unless the gorilla was smart enough to figure out some killer tactics (strangulation, breaking a limb or spine etc).
Silverbacks are formiddable, but a male lion in his prime exudes a similar bad ass atttitude. I remember a huge one sauntering past my open topped safari vehicle, so close I could have stroked him (ok, if I had very long arms). He just did not give a damn about the safari vehicle or anyone. He seemed to be packed full of testosterone and nothing remotely like those unimpressive sleepy little things you see in zoos.